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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
262
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
As tactic, brawling is on life support, while kiting reigns supreme. As consequence, ships who don't kite well or don't cope well with being kited are "bad". The imbalance is so profound that the power of a ship is measured in how well it kites.
This problem was aptly summed up by Hicksimus with the following words: I don't understand why giving a Brutix a better armor bonus would make me want to use it more. The only brutix I ever use is a shield scram brutix.
What good is tiericide going to do if half the ships in EVE are geared towards a niche tactic? Merely improving ships will not magically solve the issue because the root of the problem lies in modules and rigs:
1) The armor vs shield balance makes no sense whatsoever. The speed reduction of armor plates and rigs means giving up the chance to escape or catch a similarly sized target, it means being unable to dictate range against a shield tanker of similar size. The speed reduction associated with armor tanking is a massive tactical disadvantage.
Meanwhile, shield extenders and rigs get what is effectively a non-penality in many situations. If that wasn't bad enough, there are now ASBs.
The speed reduction from armor plates and rigs must either go away, or shield extenders and rigs should come with a harsh reduction in maximum capacitor that makes a cap injector mandatory for MWD use.
2) Tracking enhancers giving 30% falloff is too good. Reduce it to +15% falloff to force the kiters to commit to fighting at closer ranges and exposing themselves more.
Originally tracking enhancer falloff was buffed to +30% in a knee-jerk reaction over pressure by players who feared that the newly improved tracking disruptors would could reduce falloff would make kiting non-viable. Instead we saw the opposite development: kiting flourished.
3) Cruisers/battlecruisers with Barrage + tracking enhancers kill frigates FAR too easily. Autocannons track far too well at the ranges they can reach with Barrage + tracking enhancers (who also further increase tracking). The counter to speed should be a smaller and even faster ship. Yet trying to tackle an autocannon ship in a frigate is suicide.
Either Barrage's tracking penalty must be increased, or autocannon tracking in general needs to be reduced.
4) ASBs need immediate attention from the balance team. They perform a similar function to shield extenders but can be significantly more effective. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
296
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Huginns and Rapiers work very well in small fights. |
PewPewLaser
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
You seem to forget that eve is about numbers. Nano **** should be effective in smaller scale engagements. Before nano ships got popular small scale pvp was boring; It was literally sit at 0 shoot each other. Buffing spam q f1 is stupid.
Now I agree with the ASB change there needs to be a similar option for armor tanking as the only armor tank you see is obviously buffer and that means you cant nano out of engagements or dictate range.
Huginns though are seriously underrated in small scale pvp. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2235
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Huginns and Rapiers work very well in small fights.
Big ones too.
I've seen 1000+ man battles decided by less than a dozen Huginns in the age of Alphafleet. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
262
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
PewPewLaser wrote:You seem to forget that eve is about numbers. Nano **** should be effective in smaller scale engagements. Before nano ships got popular small scale pvp was boring; It was literally sit at 0 shoot each other. Buffing spam q f1 is stupid.
Now I agree with the ASB change there needs to be a similar option for armor tanking as the only armor tank you see is obviously buffer and that means you cant nano out of engagements or dictate range.
I agree with you that kiting should be a viable tactic. I'm not trying to get it removed from the game. I'm trying to get it balanced with brawling. I also have concerns that tiericide will fail to achieve its goal if the underlying imbalance of brawling vs kiting is left unadressed. Afterall, at least half of the ships in EVE are armor tankers.
If we look at the frigate level, brawling is much better balanced with kiting and you don't need pocket Huginns around to deal with nano ships. I think this is a good goal for the cruiser and battlecruiser level. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
296
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:Huginns and Rapiers work very well in small fights. Big ones too. I've seen 1000+ man battles decided by less than a dozen Huginns in the age of Alphafleet. that you feel the necessity to emphasize "less than a dozen" already points to their relative ineffectiveness in large fights - they get primaried fast, don't tank very well and can only pin down a very limited share of the enemy fleet at a time.
the other recons suffer from comparable problems which is why you hardly see them in big fights at all but the huginn webs are so important that you have no choice but to power through their shortcomings by fielding large numbers of them. |
Lexmana
642
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
We had a nice brawl yesterday. I ******* love brawling. |
Taranius De Consolville
Lost Dawn Chaos Corrosive.
147
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Methinks
You trained armor all the way
You keep plating ur ships
You keep getting owned
Now your here to whine about shield pilots having no penalties
Why your at it, please whine about how shield tankers can get t2 hardners a week before we can, about how there ammo has no real range and we have to use differ types of ammo
in short
L2FP |
Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin
90
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Er, when did EVE get so binary?
Solo, sure.. kiters are likely to win unless the kiter is silly enough to allow a hard tackle.
That said, once you get into gangs why on earth would you not mix the two types together? I regularly fly a brawling set up coupled with friends in kiters. People chasing the kiters run into me and then NOMNOMNOM on their tasty spaceship lewts.
There is so much brawlers can do to defend themselves once you get into gang-fleet engagements I am not sure if theres an issue here?
1v1.. yeah it's a pain being kited with no chance to fight back but **** happens. I also hate as a kiter finding someone smart enough to bring a damp or TD on a brawling boat :P
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Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
23
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
I can tell you why kiting/nano gangs are so supreme in this age of EVE at least in lowsec, because of the gtfo option in case the bait lit a cyno or more common you start a 1v2 or 3 and the local spikes to 20. So small scale brawling gangs are all ins, you know when you engage and the opponent lit a cyno you will loose at least 50% of your gang. Kiting/nano gangs allow you to engage a superior opponent to test the water and in case **** hits the fan you can disengage without to heavy losses.
You can check my corp killboard history, it's not that long ago we were roaming in Black Rise with a 10 man Assault ship gang. We were hotdropped by 2 different alliances within 1h :) |
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
263
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Taranius De Consolville wrote:Methinks
You trained armor all the way
You keep plating ur ships
You keep getting owned
Now your here to whine about shield pilots having no penalties
Why your at it, please whine about how shield tankers can get t2 hardners a week before we can, about how there ammo has no real range and we have to use differ types of ammo
in short
L2FP
Ignoring your passive aggressiveness, you're saying that I have done the "wrong thing" to train for armor tanking and flying Amarr?
In that case, thanks for supporting my point of view. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Raptors Mole
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
3
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
OP,
I think your points are very specific to the way you fight. RvB is Hi Sec small and medium fleet engagements if I remember correctly.
The "Massive Tactical Disadvantage" of brawler turns to massive tactical advantage at a choke point where kiting ships are channeled into waiting guns.
Those shield ships get a bigger sig radius - so are locked faster and are easier to hit. Also have less mid slots for defensive/offensive or utility.
There may be some disparity that needs a small tweek but not to the point I think its broken. In WH fights the points you have highlighted don't seem to be a problem.
Good to see RvB is still thriving.
Raptors |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
296
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Taranius De Consolville wrote:in short
L2FP if it was just an issue of player skill/knowledge and brawling fleets were fundamentally viable we would see a lot more brawling fleets (AHACs, hellcats, panicgeddons, ...) - instead we see Drakes, Rokhs, Maelstroms and 100mn Tengus.
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
264
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Posted - 2012.08.04 12:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Raptors Mole wrote: Those shield ships get a bigger sig radius - so are locked faster and are easier to hit. Also have less mid slots for defensive/offensive or utility.
I'm glad you touched upon this. Sig radius and speed are of equal value in the tracking formula. A 5% speed reduction is the same as a 5% increase in sig radius as far as tracking is concerned. Plates mass increase vs extenders sig increase work out roughly to the same speed reduction (one being slightly favored but I don't remember which).
The locking time is not significantly affected by the increase in signature radius.
Quote:There may be some disparity that needs a small tweek but not to the point I think its broken.
There very much is a massive disparity. Ships intended for armor tanking (such as the Brutix) are being fit as shield tanks with as many damage mods and tracking enhancers in the low slots. Myrmidons are being tanked with ASBs and perform better that way. Both of these ships were meant to armor tank.
Quote:In WH fights the points you have highlighted don't seem to be a problem.
I agree, w-space is why I speak of niche tactic. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Spectre80
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
77
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Posted - 2012.08.04 12:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Taranius De Consolville wrote:Methinks
You trained armor all the way
You keep plating ur ships
You keep getting owned
Now your here to whine about shield pilots having no penalties
Why your at it, please whine about how shield tankers can get t2 hardners a week before we can, about how there ammo has no real range and we have to use differ types of ammo
in short
L2FP
Methinks you are a ****.
i think these concerns that op posted are very valid.
and i fly all kind oif ships before you get any remarks of me being also only armor trained :P |
Raptors Mole
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
3
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Posted - 2012.08.04 12:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:[quote=Raptors Mole] Those shield ships get a bigger sig radius - so are locked faster and are easier to hit. Also have less mid slots for defensive/offensive or utility.
I'm glad you touched upon this. A 5% speed reduction is the same as a 5% increase in sig radius as far as tracking is concerned. Plates mass increase vs extenders sig increase work out roughly to the same speed reduction (one being slightly favored but I don't remember which).
No worries here then, seems fair.
The locking time is not significantly affected by the increase in signature radius.
I thought it was a factor - Locking time is important in WH space - will do some reading.
Quote:There may be some disparity that needs a small tweek but not to the point I think its broken.
There very much is a massive disparity. Ships intended for armor tanking (such as the Brutix) are being fit as shield tanks with as many damage mods and tracking enhancers in the low slots. Myrmidons are being tanked with ASBs and perform better that way. Both of these ships were meant to armor tank.
Aye but ship types and pilots imagination in fitting is what flavours the game, unless things change the game stagnates. The Myrm is a very good ship in the hands of a capable pilot. I dread to think what it would be like going against one if the fit you describe is better than a triple armor rep fit.
Another poster mentioned 100mn Tengus. There is a special place in hell for these pilots shareed with French men. Before anyone asks, French women go to the same place in heaven as British men |
Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
3
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Posted - 2012.08.04 12:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Imho, the biggest problem is that kiting can be done very effectively in cheap ships. Back in the day, you had to use HACs or recons to reach the required speed and range. Obviously, if you have to use highly skill-demanding, nimble and expensive ships for a certain tactic, less people will use it. Nowadays, Drakes, Hurricanes and Tier3 dominate the pvp landscape since they are all cheap, fast, have reasonably good hp and can do very good dps at range. I believe a slight nerf to BC mass and agility could do a great deal to balance kiting vs. brawling. |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
130
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 12:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
PewPewLaser wrote:You seem to forget that eve is about numbers. Nano **** should be effective in smaller scale engagements. Before nano ships got popular small scale pvp was boring; It was literally sit at 0 shoot each other. Buffing spam q f1 is stupid.
Now I agree with the ASB change there needs to be a similar option for armor tanking as the only armor tank you see is obviously buffer and that means you cant nano out of engagements or dictate range.
Huginns though are seriously underrated in small scale pvp.
You seem to forget that Eve is a Sandbox game and people play the game different ways. Also, Nice name. I am sure LasersPewPew will be happy that you are biting his name. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2235
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 14:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:Huginns and Rapiers work very well in small fights. Big ones too. I've seen 1000+ man battles decided by less than a dozen Huginns in the age of Alphafleet. that you feel the necessity to emphasize "less than a dozen" already points to their relative ineffectiveness in large fights - they get primaried fast, don't tank very well and can only pin down a very limited share of the enemy fleet at a time. the other recons suffer from comparable problems which is why you hardly see them in big fights at all but the huginn webs are so important that you have no choice but to power through their shortcomings by fielding large numbers of them.
Relative ineffectiveness???
If your logi is even halfway competent, they are watchlisted, and they know how to position themselves, huginns can be very difficult to deal with, and greatly magnify their fleet's effectiveness. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
269
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 16:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
To back up my assertion that the imbalance is indeed massive, I bring this:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
Shield tankers are way overrepresented in that list. The few ships in there with more lows than mids (namely Hurricane, Oracle, Talos) are also often shield tanked in my experience.
The overrepresentation of HMLs in the top 20 weapons list is staggering also. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
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Oswald Banecroft
Muteki Imperium
0
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Posted - 2012.08.04 16:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Really? If you find that to be so then spend time fighting people in wormholes. The only thing those people seem to know how to do is get up close and personal. You should have fun "kiting" them all day long, or, you know, fighting at zero like a champ. This is my signature, there are many like it but this one is mine. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
16
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Posted - 2012.08.04 17:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
I think that the proplem with close range brawlers is that they can be kited at all in others words
Gallente ships should be the fastest in the game not minmatar HOWEVER Gallente in exchange should be significantly less maneuverable a gallente brutix with a 10mn mwd should move more like a 100mn AB fit
race trades should be like this
Gallente : Highest top speed but lowest agility Minmatar : Highest agility Second best top speed Amarr : low agility and low speed but huge tank and longest range guns Caldari : well here is a small problem since caldari has blaster boats and missile boats I guess the missle ships should be just as slow as amarr probably even less agile since HMs have so much range the rail/ blaster boats should be just as fast agile as Gallente ships are
to fix armor tanking the penalty should be changed from Mass addition to Inertia addition/reduction which ever makes the ship accelerate/ align slower
with those changes gallente ships could not be kited with the same fits and even an armor bruix should be able to catch a one nano shield cane since it would be faster if the cane pilot is good however he could use his high maneuverability to still somewhat kite the brutix with rapid direction changes makeing the bruix overshoot so yeah just running away in a straight line would not work anymore the bruix would catch up get a scram on it and from then on have the advantage
the balance of tank and gank then has a big role and should be counted in seriously: if the cane (shield or armor) has been running in a straight line was shooting the whole time at the brutix and took some hp off it and then gets caught by the bruix at that point the bruix should have the same chance to win even with the less hp it now has due to having more ehp
the cane however should still be able to escape out of scram range by maneuvering well I know for this to work the bruix would have to have incredibly bad agility but thats what im thinking
in general I think that the racial traits the ships have, have become barely noticeable and should be much more dominant then they are right now as I said earlier the with the bruix, Gallente ships should be about a nano or two (10-20%) faster then the minmatar but a nano or two less agile as their basic stats, Amarr and Caldari ships should have about 10-20% more HP then Gallente or Mintatar as compensation for their bad agility/speed
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Garreth Vlox
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
37
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Posted - 2012.08.04 23:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:PewPewLaser wrote:You seem to forget that eve is about numbers. Nano **** should be effective in smaller scale engagements. Before nano ships got popular small scale pvp was boring; It was literally sit at 0 shoot each other. Buffing spam q f1 is stupid.
Now I agree with the ASB change there needs to be a similar option for armor tanking as the only armor tank you see is obviously buffer and that means you cant nano out of engagements or dictate range. I agree with you that kiting should be a viable tactic. I'm not trying to get it removed from the game. I'm trying to get it balanced with brawling. I also have concerns that tiericide will fail to achieve its goal if the underlying imbalance of brawling vs kiting is left unadressed. Afterall, at least half of the ships in EVE are armor tankers. If we look at the frigate level, brawling is much better balanced with kiting and you don't need pocket Huginns around to deal with nano ships. I think this is a good goal for the cruiser and battlecruiser level.
He's got a point I miss the days of point blank Armor BS throwdowns were you set orbit on a tanked to hell command ship and just **** each other up for hours while logi's make things interesting. |
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