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Aditia Holdem
Rionnag Alba Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 04:44:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 28/10/2010 04:47:41 Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 28/10/2010 04:46:36 A lot of the fun that pvp oriented players in nullsec space derive from the game comes from roaming around, trying to get fights out of tackling ratters. This fun gets diminished in a sad way by the fact that you encounter so many bots during your roams and you get confronted with the fact that people are making boat loads of ISK in a way that is still considered cheating (right?).
One prime example is RED Alliance, a Russian language alliance. Even when you roam their space during times that Russians should be fast asleep, you will encounter 2 or 3 tengus in EVERY system that all warp safe at exactly the same time the second you jump into local.
This kind of cheating makes the game less fun and imbalanced and in some regions of space is so wide spread that it, in my opinion, warrants action by CCP. The players that actually play by the rules need your help CCP!
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.10.28 05:45:00 -
[2]
This is likely to be locked if you're calling names out the issue here.
Macro ratting and mining is still a big problem, it's not news to us, and I doubt anyone with any influence with CCP (besides the CSM, who also know this is still an issue).
Clearly the solution is to turn dull activities like mining and ratting into more active ones, such as increasing your damage or mining amount based on amount of completed captchas per minute, etc.
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Krollin
Bi'Atch Inc Warsmiths.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 10:04:00 -
[3]
This is the cancer that is killing EVE. The growing amount of RMT traders in High/Low and 0.0 is crazy!
What about having Unholy Rage more than just once (PR exercise).
I find it hard to believe that this is not difficult to track - players who are logged in for 23/7 simply cannot be controlled by 1 individual - this alone proves that there is atleast account sharing taking place.
+1
Kro
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Anna Lifera
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2010.10.28 15:36:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Aditia Holdem Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 28/10/2010 04:47:41 Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 28/10/2010 04:46:36 A lot of the fun that pvp oriented players in nullsec space derive from the game comes from roaming around, trying to get fights out of tackling ratters. This fun gets diminished in a sad way by the fact that you encounter so many bots during your roams and you get confronted with the fact that people are making boat loads of ISK in a way that is still considered cheating (right?).
or u can move on with your subscription and actually get a fight from ppl that r also trying to get fights, unless u're even more risk-averse than those ratters. in that case, u could just propose to funnel every pve player to u to shoot fish in a barrel with and be immune to everyone else. --- LOLOLOL If anything, lvl4s require LESS effort then Mining!... At least in mining you have to check every 4 minutes to move the ore to the can. You're an idiot. - Jerid Verges |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.10.28 16:02:00 -
[5]
Honestly, some roams bring a few small ships and fight ratters (often a reasonably fair fight, ships go boom on both sides). Many roams are larger. aHAC gangs, drake gangs, nano gangs... they shoot ratters to provoke a response. The fun is when the defense fleet shows up and you get a fight. Ratters are generally not very fun to kill (unless they are a ratting carrier or dread... those are fun).
Back to the OP, the problem with killing macro ratters is you really don't get any response out of killing them (when you catch them) because there is no player screaming in alliance/corp "neut/red gang in *** just lost my ratting raven" so no one comes running and there is no fight and thus no fun.
Kill the macros.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.10.28 16:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Aditia Holdem Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 28/10/2010 04:47:41 Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 28/10/2010 04:46:36 A lot of the fun that pvp oriented players in nullsec space derive from the game comes from roaming around, trying to get fights out of tackling ratters. This fun gets diminished in a sad way by the fact that you encounter so many bots during your roams and you get confronted with the fact that people are making boat loads of ISK in a way that is still considered cheating (right?).
One prime example is RED Alliance, a Russian language alliance. Even when you roam their space during times that Russians should be fast asleep, you will encounter 2 or 3 tengus in EVERY system that all warp safe at exactly the same time the second you jump into local.
This kind of cheating makes the game less fun and imbalanced and in some regions of space is so wide spread that it, in my opinion, warrants action by CCP. The players that actually play by the rules need your help CCP!
I am impressed at the massive amounts of proof in this thread for the accusations you've made, you should forward it to CCP so they can get on top of it.
--Submit your bug reports via mental telepathy this will streamline CCP ignoring them.-- |
Anna Lifera
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2010.10.28 16:38:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Anna Lifera on 28/10/2010 16:40:33
Originally by: Bagehi Honestly, some roams bring a few small ships and fight ratters (often a reasonably fair fight, ships go boom on both sides). Many roams are larger. aHAC gangs, drake gangs, nano gangs... they shoot ratters to provoke a response. The fun is when the defense fleet shows up and you get a fight. Ratters are generally not very fun to kill (unless they are a ratting carrier or dread... those are fun).
Back to the OP, the problem with killing macro ratters is you really don't get any response out of killing them (when you catch them) because there is no player screaming in alliance/corp "neut/red gang in *** just lost my ratting raven" so no one comes running and there is no fight and thus no fun.
Kill the macros.
so that's why the gankers only go after the ratters instead of the defense fleet itself or its hq system, am i right? so when the defense fleet shows up, the gankers "advance in another direction" to a safe location to fight the good fight of who gets bored first. hahaha u're funny. --- You're an asset to the community Anna. Thank you for your clear concise remarks. - Draek |
wr3cks
Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:01:00 -
[8]
I think this is a real problem. I don't have any basis for singling out RED or anyone else, but it's pretty obvious that large-scale macro ratting occurs.
People who suggest that we gank the ratters don't understand how the macros are programmed. As soon as you enter local, the macros safe up. I've gone on several hour, 3-4-5 region roams that get no action at all, because we're just blowing through crowds of macro-ratters.
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:18:00 -
[9]
just make eve check the computer for running macro programs etc if one is detected eve closes itself and maybe sents a mesage to ccp for further investigation as far as I know thats the only way except some stupid captcha or radical UI changes
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Anna Lifera so that's why the gankers only go after the ratters instead of the defense fleet itself or its hq system, am i right? so when the defense fleet shows up, the gankers "advance in another direction" to a safe location to fight the good fight of who gets bored first. hahaha u're funny.
Depends on the response. If you come with 30 hoping to pick a fight and 100 show up in a defense fleet (usually takes forever), you're already dealing with a bunch of people who want to turn around and head home, add to it a fight that they know they can't win and it shouldn't be a surprise they leave.
A more common situation is when two fleets play gate games with each other. Neither fleet catching the other in a situation they are willing to engage in. Do this for long enough and someone has to go home, since the defense fleet is already home, it is the roam that has to leave the area.
Usually, in roams I've been on, we engage. Suicidal or otherwise.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Anna Lifera
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2010.10.28 20:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bagehi
Depends on the response. If you come with 30 hoping to pick a fight and 100 show up in a defense fleet (usually takes forever), you're already dealing with a bunch of people who want to turn around and head home, add to it a fight that they know they can't win and it shouldn't be a surprise they leave.
A more common situation is when two fleets play gate games with each other. Neither fleet catching the other in a situation they are willing to engage in. Do this for long enough and someone has to go home, since the defense fleet is already home, it is the roam that has to leave the area.
Usually, in roams I've been on, we engage. Suicidal or otherwise.
in other words, that's why u came with 30 to gank one ratter? because u know u can win as long as u don't bring any less, right? 'cause we all know u didn't come with 30 to look for a fight 'cause that's not enough to attack a system. here's an idea--don't bring so many so u won't have to wait forever for a fight. it's still enough to gank the solo ratters and u'll get a lot more fights because the other side won't face the same "problem" u would if your 30 came across the 100-man fleet. u'll just have to face a little risk from the lone ratter who might destroy your precious killboard with one loss this time due to your lower total dps 'cause that's the only time u'll ever engage. --- You're an asset to the community Anna. Thank you for your clear concise remarks. - Draek |
Imigo Montoya
Hysterically Unforgiving Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 20:55:00 -
[12]
...back on topic...
Macro ratting is most definitely a problem that needs to be addressed. I've even afk cloaked in a system where I found a neut macro ratter, but he just moved on.
Cheating sucks, kills the economy (excessive ISK source), and is a source of frustration to legitimate players (and subscription payers).
This issue keeps coming up because it keeps being a problem. Whatever is done (data mining could be a good start), some sort of crackdown is needed.
Supporting more action against macro use.
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Fournone
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Posted - 2010.10.29 00:57:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Fournone on 29/10/2010 00:58:54 Kill the macros!
CCP turns a blind eye on macros since they provide a steady income from their subscriptions.
Did I just aggree with northern coalition?
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ImRedYoureDead
Trust Doesn't Rust Retribution.
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Posted - 2010.10.29 11:52:00 -
[14]
Edited by: ImRedYoureDead on 29/10/2010 11:53:53 Data mining would be a start but really all CCP needs to do is a roam arouns Stain or other NPC regions regularly and I'm sure they'd come across many people marco'ing.
Is it really that hard to moderate their own game that they need to actually wait for someone to petition a problem instead of proactively looking for them?
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Warn1nG Soul
Rionnag Alba Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.10.29 16:33:00 -
[15]
fix the cheaters and fix the lag, or i going to pop you all @ CCP
<3 curses mom
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Bunyip
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.10.30 03:52:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Krollin What about having Unholy Rage more than just once (PR exercise).
I find it hard to believe that this is not difficult to track - players who are logged in for 23/7 simply cannot be controlled by 1 individual - this alone proves that there is atleast account sharing taking place.
Project Unholy Rage is a continuing project which is active even now. They do track this stuff and punish the offenders.
Unfortunately, the result of this is that accounts are being hacked to steal the ISK. I'm against macroers, but I'm also against CCP invading the kernel to detect third-party programs (like some other companies do *cough*blizzard*cough*). Preventing macros is a tough battle that will honestly never end.
While I support the fight against macroers, I trust that CCP is doing everything they can, as the economy which the macroers affect is the main thing keeping this game going. I'll support this measure as much as asking them to roam the game and interact with it, but there's not really much they can do without alienating their playerbase.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Reddx Panther
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Posted - 2010.10.30 18:19:00 -
[17]
Yea, macros should have no place in EVE and game mechanics should not offer ISK for macroable activities.
I attribute the macro ratting problem to the weird game mechanic that the fattest rats are even in the most emptiest of systems (no very plausible btw), also that ratting itself is basically risk-free.
I'd suggest two solutions: 1. Make ratting less offensively dumb and risk-free. Give them rats a few tools that will kill macro player ships, like 'rat hot drops' after a rat puts a point on the player, balanced so that a player will barely get away if he chooses a good 'burn away' vector. 2. Introduce a game mechanic that ensures that the fattest rats spawn in systems with lots of ship/pod kills, while **** empty space remains, well, rather **** empty.
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Miss President
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.10.31 03:46:00 -
[18]
CCP needs a PUNKBUSTER for EVE
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wr3cks
Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.10.31 07:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Bunyip While I support the fight against macroers, I trust that CCP is doing everything they can,
Please evemail me about a bridge I have for sale.
Originally by: Bunyip
as the economy which the macroers affect is the main thing keeping this game going
I don't understand what you mean by this.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.31 09:52:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Malcanis on 31/10/2010 09:53:42
Originally by: Bunyip
Originally by: Krollin What about having Unholy Rage more than just once (PR exercise).
I find it hard to believe that this is not difficult to track - players who are logged in for 23/7 simply cannot be controlled by 1 individual - this alone proves that there is atleast account sharing taking place.
Project Unholy Rage is a continuing project which is active even now. They do track this stuff and punish the offenders.
Unfortunately, the result of this is that accounts are being hacked to steal the ISK. I'm against macroers, but I'm also against CCP invading the kernel to detect third-party programs (like some other companies do *cough*blizzard*cough*). Preventing macros is a tough battle that will honestly never end.
While I support the fight against macroers, I trust that CCP is doing everything they can, as the economy which the macroers affect is the main thing keeping this game going. I'll support this measure as much as asking them to roam the game and interact with it, but there's not really much they can do without alienating their playerbase.
There is plenty they could do to greatly hamper macroing without alientating their playerbase.
Here, I'll lay out a few freebies. Some of these are super-easy, very simple fixes, some aren't. But all of them would actively improve the game for human players while strongly nerfing macros.
(1) Add a heavy deposit to lo-sec courier missions, so that failing them is expensive. This would mean that killing macrohaulers would actually have some effect other than destroying a 300k ISK hauler.
(2) Give us the mining and industrial expansion we've been promised since 2007. Make mining an active activity, not a passive one. Remove static belts, reduce the proportion of ore-bearing asteroids to 5-10% (so miners have to actually find the good rocks in a belt), and make mining itself a semi-active process. You could do this by providing a pseudo 3-d image of the rock with veins and nodes of minerals. The challenge would be to align and focus the mining beams to hit the high concentrations whilst ignoring the dross. Add slow rotation or movement of the rock so that constant adjustment and monitoring is required for peak efficiency.
Peak potential mining yield would be 5-10x higher than at present, so an active, intelligent miner who efficiently extracts the concentrated ore is strongly rewarded over a dumb macro who will just mine the whole rock at hugely lower efficiency.
There could also be the potential to find small nodes of mid-end minerals in hi sec rocks, and high-end minerals in lo-sec rocks, etc. Just to add another dimension of complexity to the optimal mining solution.
(3) Change rats to be far fewer (like 90% less) in number and much more effective. Give them remotely realistic fits and upgrade the AI so that it's actually a challenge to kill them (correct size modules,more than 1 damb weapon, will move into their optimal, will use different ammo types, will summon reinforcements, will attempt to escape). Increase per-rat rewards accordingly. All elite frigate rats should have tackle. All frigate rats in lo-sec should have tackle. All frigate and cruiser rats in nullsec should have tackle.
Ratting and missioning should actually be dangerous. Not an utterly predictable, utterly safe grind.
In short, when EVE's PvE isn't easily done by macros, macros will not be so prevalent. No doubt it is impossible to completely eradicate macrobots, but there sure is a lot that could be done to make things much harder for them, that would also make the game much more fun to play. EVE's PvE is literally a joke in the MMO community, and that's just a shame. Good, challenging PvE isn't "giving in to the carebears". It's just making EVE a better game.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Amanda Eidolo
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.31 10:57:00 -
[21]
IT IS GLARINGLY OBVIOUS WHEN SOMEONE IS USING A MACRO. IT IS A TERMINAL DISEASE THAT PLAGUES HIGHSEC, LOWSEC AND NULLSEC. EXTERMINATE!
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Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.11.01 00:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Aditia Holdem Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 28/10/2010 04:47:41 Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 28/10/2010 04:46:36 A lot of the fun that pvp oriented players in nullsec space derive from the game comes from roaming around, trying to get fights out of tackling ratters. This fun gets diminished in a sad way by the fact that you encounter so many bots during your roams and you get confronted with the fact that people are making boat loads of ISK in a way that is still considered cheating (right?).
One prime example is RED Alliance, a Russian language alliance. Even when you roam their space during times that Russians should be fast asleep, you will encounter 2 or 3 tengus in EVERY system that all warp safe at exactly the same time the second you jump into local.
This kind of cheating makes the game less fun and imbalanced and in some regions of space is so wide spread that it, in my opinion, warrants action by CCP. The players that actually play by the rules need your help CCP!
This is not assembly hall material. This is a petition material.
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Alvar Kesh
Ealurian Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.11.03 13:23:00 -
[23]
/signed
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Lady Parity
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.11.03 13:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 31/10/2010 09:53:42
Originally by: Bunyip
Originally by: Krollin What about having Unholy Rage more than just once (PR exercise).
I find it hard to believe that this is not difficult to track - players who are logged in for 23/7 simply cannot be controlled by 1 individual - this alone proves that there is atleast account sharing taking place.
Project Unholy Rage is a continuing project which is active even now. They do track this stuff and punish the offenders.
Unfortunately, the result of this is that accounts are being hacked to steal the ISK. I'm against macroers, but I'm also against CCP invading the kernel to detect third-party programs (like some other companies do *cough*blizzard*cough*). Preventing macros is a tough battle that will honestly never end.
While I support the fight against macroers, I trust that CCP is doing everything they can, as the economy which the macroers affect is the main thing keeping this game going. I'll support this measure as much as asking them to roam the game and interact with it, but there's not really much they can do without alienating their playerbase.
There is plenty they could do to greatly hamper macroing without alientating their playerbase.
Here, I'll lay out a few freebies. Some of these are super-easy, very simple fixes, some aren't. But all of them would actively improve the game for human players while strongly nerfing macros.
(1) Add a heavy deposit to lo-sec courier missions, so that failing them is expensive. This would mean that killing macrohaulers would actually have some effect other than destroying a 300k ISK hauler.
(2) Give us the mining and industrial expansion we've been promised since 2007. Make mining an active activity, not a passive one. Remove static belts, reduce the proportion of ore-bearing asteroids to 5-10% (so miners have to actually find the good rocks in a belt), and make mining itself a semi-active process. You could do this by providing a pseudo 3-d image of the rock with veins and nodes of minerals. The challenge would be to align and focus the mining beams to hit the high concentrations whilst ignoring the dross. Add slow rotation or movement of the rock so that constant adjustment and monitoring is required for peak efficiency.
Peak potential mining yield would be 5-10x higher than at present, so an active, intelligent miner who efficiently extracts the concentrated ore is strongly rewarded over a dumb macro who will just mine the whole rock at hugely lower efficiency.
There could also be the potential to find small nodes of mid-end minerals in hi sec rocks, and high-end minerals in lo-sec rocks, etc. Just to add another dimension of complexity to the optimal mining solution.
(3) Change rats to be far fewer (like 90% less) in number and much more effective. Give them remotely realistic fits and upgrade the AI so that it's actually a challenge to kill them (correct size modules,more than 1 damb weapon, will move into their optimal, will use different ammo types, will summon reinforcements, will attempt to escape). Increase per-rat rewards accordingly. All elite frigate rats should have tackle. All frigate rats in lo-sec should have tackle. All frigate and cruiser rats in nullsec should have tackle.
Ratting and missioning should actually be dangerous. Not an utterly predictable, utterly safe grind.
In short, when EVE's PvE isn't easily done by macros, macros will not be so prevalent. No doubt it is impossible to completely eradicate macrobots, but there sure is a lot that could be done to make things much harder for them, that would also make the game much more fun to play. EVE's PvE is literally a joke in the MMO community, and that's just a shame. Good, challenging PvE isn't "giving in to the carebears". It's just making EVE a better game.
/signed
Heh who would have thought Malganis actually said stuff I agree with
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okcerg
WEPRA CORP
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Posted - 2010.11.03 13:52:00 -
[25]
Thumbing up to Malcanis proposal. I'd get my rusty Hulk out if it was implemented
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wr3cks
Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.11.06 06:12:00 -
[26]
bumped for the following reasons:
1) Malcanis is awesome
2) In-game inflation caused by macros and bots is as problem, and needs to be fixed
3) If #2 was fixed, CCP would earn a good deal more from plex sales, thereby eliminating the need for microtransactions
Think about it: PLEX is just an exchange rate between ingame currency and RL currency. If ingame currency can be created by russian/chinese/whatever programmers who macro-rat and courier-botnet their way to billions, then plex is just buying some small slice of what those automated producers can provide. On the other hand, if plex bought the careful attention of a limited # of human players, they'd be worth much more and players would supply more.
I completely fail to understand why this isn't a much higher priority for CCP.
:CCP:
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Ric Adburr
0ccam's Razor
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Posted - 2010.11.06 06:36:00 -
[27]
Signed for Malcanis' proposal.
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