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Feikno
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Posted - 2010.10.28 16:48:00 -
[1]
Thinking of this from a pvp perspective. I guess there are the HACs, but I've seen a few fleet engagements that seem heavy on the drake. Drakes with shield tanking would have a sig radius comparable to a battleships, and the next logical step would be the Raven in the line of power.
You would have battleship health, range, and damage to hit drakes, but I don't see anyone using a battleship to fight a battlecruiser. It just seems like it stopped at battlecruiser. I've seen tempests in one of the fleet fights, but why not a Raven?
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Ray Banner
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:09:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ray Banner on 28/10/2010 17:10:59 I don't have much experience but I think the tempests you saw were probably used as oversized BCs while ravens would slow the BCs down. BSs are also more expensive and skill intensive so it can be harder to get as many pilots.
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Kokura Nin
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:09:00 -
[3]
Even slower speed to get out of bubbles ? Cost is the other concern.
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Footoo Rama
Gallente Beyond Control.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:20:00 -
[4]
Outside of the tank on the drake...
Mostly speed and mobility. As a Gallante pilot the domi really overshadows the Brutix and mrymm for dps and tank, as well as tending to be pretty much the same price. The downside is they take alot longer to align, and get out of bubbles. mobility is key ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!" |
Tusen Takk
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:21:00 -
[5]
it costs me 38mil to buy and fit and rig a Drake. just the hull of a Raven is 120mil in The Citadel region, not including the large rigs which are hella expensive and the skill intensive cruise and torpedos. sure, 118k ehp is alot, but when you're theh primary target for all of the targets youre engaging in a fleet, that doesnt last very long.
that being said, im currently getting my torp skills up so that i can get a whole fleet of battleships up in dat bish and put the wtfpwn on
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Hannibal Ord
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tusen Takk just the hull of a Raven is 120mil in The Citadel region
Don't talk ****.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:40:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Footoo Rama The downside is they take alot longer to align, and get out of bubbles.
fyp ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Feikno
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tusen Takk it costs me 38mil to buy and fit and rig a Drake. just the hull of a Raven is 120mil in The Citadel region, not including the large rigs which are hella expensive and the skill intensive cruise and torpedos. sure, 118k ehp is alot, but when you're theh primary target for all of the targets youre engaging in a fleet, that doesnt last very long.
This is one of my concerns about this. There's more money floating around in Eve now then I think there ever has been, Battleships are cheaper than I remember them used to be as well (tier 2 BS are like 70 mill), and when you look at "oh yeah they have more EHP, and more damage" why wouldn't you risk more to lose less, and win more often?
Frigates are cheap but people don't use those because they are cost effective to lose in large fleets.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:45:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 28/10/2010 17:49:22 Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 28/10/2010 17:48:18 Biggest reason is the massive suck of trying to use a torp raven in a fleet and utilizing cruise missiles at ultra long range is even harder to pull off requiring some insanely well timed tackle. Obstensibly they're not -bad- for providing extra dps on targets, but like every other caldari ship they're just mediocre at regular fleet range (their advantage is being able to operate outside that range), shield tanked so they don't fit into most fleets, and fairly gimped if they fit much tackle.
Slow alignment is a battleship issue. While battleships aren't in use much today, that's more because of ahac gangs giving them the business than anything to do with bs speed. Even when battleship gangs were popular, the raven wasn't one of those battleships. You have to go waaaay back into eve's broken history to find those crazy missile days when ravens were a popular pvp hull.
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Feikno
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk ...
But what you mentioned there the drake would also suffer from aside from alignment. You are slower, but more powerful than a drake(at least in damage). I guess when you get to capital sized fleets shields become less useful, but the issue was comparing the drake and raven. Drake is popular, Raven isn't.
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Kokura Nin
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:02:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Feikno
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk ...
But what you mentioned there the drake would also suffer from aside from alignment. You are slower, but more powerful than a drake(at least in damage). I guess when you get to capital sized fleets shields become less useful, but the issue was comparing the drake and raven. Drake is popular, Raven isn't.
Rig cost m8 + agility. 45M rigs vs 10M in rigs.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:10:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Feikno
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk ...
But what you mentioned there the drake would also suffer from aside from alignment. You are slower, but more powerful than a drake(at least in damage). I guess when you get to capital sized fleets shields become less useful, but the issue was comparing the drake and raven. Drake is popular, Raven isn't.
But what I mentioned is that nobody gives a **** about speed in a bs gang (sup amarr battleships) and cap shield fleets don't exist. Drake is popular because it can form its own fleet with scmiatars since both are small and durable enough to not get ****ed by AHAC gangs like battleships do.
I was pointing out why people didn't use ravens (even when they used battleships) as well as why battleships were not as widely used today (ahac). But, drake gangs get smoked by battleships so hopefully people will realize this and dust off their battleships again (just don't expect to bring a raven).
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:06:00 -
[13]
Torps and cruises have a hard time doing significant damage to AB HACs and Logistics.
The Raven is a great BS when you are in a gang with shield logistics and up against a small force of BS and BC targets. You wont find that outside of lowsec much.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:23:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 28/10/2010 19:26:29
Originally by: Tusen Takk it costs me 38mil to buy and fit and rig a Drake. just the hull of a Raven is 120mil in The Citadel region, not including the large rigs which are hella expensive and the skill intensive cruise and torpedos. sure, 118k ehp is alot, but when you're theh primary target for all of the targets youre engaging in a fleet, that doesnt last very long.
that being said, im currently getting my torp skills up so that i can get a whole fleet of battleships up in dat bish and put the wtfpwn on
Its 50 mil to T2 PVP fit a drake including rigs with the ship cost about 1/2 that. that includes 3-4 mil in CN/Fury ammo. Rigs alone are 8-10 mil
A raven has not been 120 mil in the two 1/2 years i have played not even in 0.0 have i seen it this high. In fact the rokh is often cheap than that though i havent priced one lately. Ravens when i first started averaged 80-90 mil. they now average around 70 mil.
OP: Snipe and RR BSes are quite popular in 0.0 warfare.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:44:00 -
[15]
Ravens are closer to 70m universally and rokhs are down under 100m *close to 90m in some areas* (Don't ask me why i know that... shh).
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
OP: Snipe and RR BSes are quite popular in 0.0 warfare.
Yes, turret sniping armor tanked rr battleships are popular.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2010.10.28 20:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Ravens are closer to 70m universally and rokhs are down under 100m *close to 90m in some areas* (Don't ask me why i know that... shh).
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
OP: Snipe and RR BSes are quite popular in 0.0 warfare.
Yes, turret sniping armor tanked rr battleships are popular.
well when you can fire 2 more volleys before your first one hits that tends to be a drawback when a ships average lifespan once primaried is 5-20 seconds depending on gang size.
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Wardeneo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.28 21:31:00 -
[17]
lol stealth whine? - im sorry in the current "OMG THERE NERFING THE DRAKE - NO MORE LVL 4'S" situation im assuming any thread with the word drake in it is a whine thread :p lol :)
n tbh its not a drake nerf - its a long needed re-balance ;)
thats all carry on :) .
- Wardeneo -
- Elite Forum Ninja -
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Zyress
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Posted - 2010.10.28 21:34:00 -
[18]
Large drake gangs are built on relatively high speed, (if you can call 1 KM/sec high speed) perma mwding this makes them difficult for battleship turrets to track and Torps do very little damage Battleships are not the answer unless you got a group of Sniping battleships that has enough alpha to insta pop them at distance and warp away before the gang can reach them. Another way to attack them would be attack frigates moving fast enough to tank heavy missile damage with a descent buffer tank and descent dps. Basically do to the Drakes what they do to the Battleships.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.10.28 22:04:00 -
[19]
drake is faster, more agile, does better damage to smaller ships, has a similar buffer, has better resists so does better with logis, and is easier to train for.
raven has better range and hey if you try to put missile rigs on a raven to better hit smaller ships it has less hp than a buffered drakes
guess the raven would be a bit better for pos bashing, but not much else (in blob warfare) imo best use for a raven is a high damage torp setup and ganking people.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.28 22:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Wardeneo
lol "OMG THERE NERFING THE DRAKE - NO MORE LVL 4'S"
What are you smoking and can I have some?
L4's will be a joke regardless of what or how they nerf anything.
And you've got at least four other running drake threads to prove your last point wrong. So please gtfo.
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.11.01 18:50:00 -
[21]
Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 18:54:11 I can give you a final, definative, correct answer.
Ravens are disfavored as fleet battleships because of two primary factors:
1) 80% - they cannot properly armor tank, and thus are comparatively vulnerable to enemy fire. You can put armor mods on a Raven, but they will never be as good as true armor tanking ships like Amarr BS. They also do not benefit from remote reps as much.
2) 20% - Ravens use missiles which take a long time to travel. In a proper 200 vs 200 battle, a ship can often be destroyed in one or two volleys. Thus, the missile lag time reduces the effective DPS of the Raven. This used to be more important, but changes to EVE have made this secondary to the armor tank issue.
Drakes are different for the following reasons: They are not battleships and they are typically used for non-critical battles, where the outcome is not "make or break." They are cheaper, they are faster, and they are better at harassing the enemy when you are far from home. You generally would NOT use a Drake fleet to kill a large POS. You could use a BS fleet to kill a large POS.
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TheKalila
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:00:00 -
[22]
Edited by: TheKalila on 01/11/2010 19:03:08
Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 18:56:47 Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 18:54:11 I can give you a final, definative, correct answer.
Ravens are disfavored as fleet battleships because of two primary factors:
1) 80% - they cannot properly armor tank, and thus are comparatively vulnerable to enemy fire. You can put armor mods on a Raven, but they will never be as good as true armor tanking ships like Amarr BS. They also do not benefit from remote reps as much.
2) 20% - Ravens use missiles which take a long time to travel. In a proper 200 vs 200 battle, a ship can often be destroyed in one or two volleys. Thus, the missile lag time reduces the effective DPS of the Raven. This used to be more important, but changes to EVE have made this secondary to the armor tank issue.
Drakes are different for the following reasons: They are not battleships and they are typically used for non-critical battles, where the outcome is not "make or break." They are cheaper, they are faster, and they are better at harassing the enemy when you are far from home. You generally would NOT use a Drake fleet to kill a large POS. You could use a BS fleet to kill a large POS. You would use a Drake fleet to temporarily blockade a system or harass ratters.
None of these reasons seem to matter to Drake fleets and Ravens are fine for POS bashes (and can field some of the highest DPS for them too). And Drakes most certainly are used in critical battles because they are that effective but you are right, they are not used for POS bashing (pretty sure thats what caps are for).
The only thing that lets the Raven down is the fitting requirements for shield RR. Thats all that needs to change and we might possibly see Ravens Online one day.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:02:00 -
[23]
Shield rr is hard to fit on a raven?
You clearly know a lot about the raven.
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TheKalila
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:08:00 -
[24]
Edited by: TheKalila on 01/11/2010 19:14:07
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 01/11/2010 19:06:27 Shield rr is hard to fit on a raven?
You clearly know a lot about the raven.
Pre-emptive nerf raven threads need to start NOW! GET TO IT TROLLS!
Good luck getting the same resists/buffer and RR capability out of a Raven as an equivalent armor RR BS.
Edit: @Leski, aren't you mean't to be the Official Anti-Caldari Spokesperson anyway? First time I'm agreeing with you too.
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:36:00 -
[25]
Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 19:39:00
Originally by: TheKalila Edited by: TheKalila on 01/11/2010 19:03:08
Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 18:56:47 Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 18:54:11 I can give you a final, definative, correct answer.
Ravens are disfavored as fleet battleships because of two primary factors:
1) 80% - they cannot properly armor tank, and thus are comparatively vulnerable to enemy fire. You can put armor mods on a Raven, but they will never be as good as true armor tanking ships like Amarr BS. They also do not benefit from remote reps as much.
2) 20% - Ravens use missiles which take a long time to travel. In a proper 200 vs 200 battle, a ship can often be destroyed in one or two volleys. Thus, the missile lag time reduces the effective DPS of the Raven. This used to be more important, but changes to EVE have made this secondary to the armor tank issue.
Drakes are different for the following reasons: They are not battleships and they are typically used for non-critical battles, where the outcome is not "make or break." They are cheaper, they are faster, and they are better at harassing the enemy when you are far from home. You generally would NOT use a Drake fleet to kill a large POS. You could use a BS fleet to kill a large POS. You would use a Drake fleet to temporarily blockade a system or harass ratters.
None of these reasons seem to matter to Drake fleets and Ravens are fine for POS bashes (and can field some of the highest DPS for them too). And Drakes most certainly are used in critical battles because they are that effective but you are right, they are not used for POS bashing (pretty sure thats what caps are for).
The only thing that lets the Raven down is the fitting requirements for shield RR. Thats all that needs to change and we might possibly see Ravens Online one day.
You are dead f****** wrong.
Drakes are not preferred in major fleet battles. You see them yes. They are better than nothing, and are sometimes used to feint at the enemy, but they are not preferred to a well fit BS.
Shield tanks are NEVER, EVER used by major alliances in major battles. Not at the BS level, at least. Serious alliances use 100% armor tank, and the Raven fits a poor armor tank.
Ravens do plenty of damage against a POS, but they are considered poor in the battle leading up to the POS smash -- which is all that matters.
Finally, the use of Dreads against POSes has declined a lot since the introduction of Supercarriers and other recent changes.
Simply put, the Drake is fine as a PvP ship. The Raven is not, considering their respective roles and uses.
Yesterday I was in a 1500 vs 1500 person fleet battle.
When was the last time you PvPed in 0.0 space?
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TheKalila
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: xxxak
Drakes are not preferred in major fleet battles. You see them yes. They are better than nothing, and are sometimes used to feint at the enemy, but they are not preferred to a well fit BS.
Pretty sure I see them a lot more often and are called upon a lot more often then a well fit RR or sniper BS, which both seem to have died out compared to Drakeswarms and AHACs (you forgot about AHACS?).
Originally by: xxxak
Shield tanks are NEVER, EVER used by major alliances in major battles. Not at the BS level, at least. Serious alliances use 100% armor tank, and the Raven fits a poor armor tank.
Mainly because Amarr and Gallente can't shield tank well and Minmatar can fit decent armor. So it's more of a problem with all-or-nothing with Caldari.
Also shield RR fitting requirements need to be looked at, it's much easier to fit armor RR.
Originally by: xxxak
Simply put, the Drake is fine as a PvP ship. The Raven is not, considering their respective roles and uses.
Yesterday I was in a 1500 vs 1500 person fleet battle.
When was the last time you PvPed in 0.0 space?
If your talking about LXQ, I was there. Typical NC blob tactics and an unplayable lagfest after 2k because NC decided to bring in more fleets and ofcourse plenty of Drakes. I was making a point (in case you missed it) that your initial anti-Raven arguements were not the real reason Ravens aren't used because they would apply to Drakes too.
There are 2 real reasons Ravens aren't used. And that has to do with shield RR and what people can fly, not everyone has good Caldari BS and cruise/torp skills. Since the other 3 races can armor tank and armor RR is way more common, so everyone goes armor RR. It's really that simple.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: TheKalila @Leski, aren't you mean't to be the Official Anti-Caldari Spokesperson anyway? First time I'm agreeing with you too.
Agree that shield buffer and shield logistics can't exist on any platform other than the drake, sure. But no one change will ever bring shield battleships to major use in 0.0, that would require massive nerfs to the slave set, amarr caps, amarr ships in general, AND the doctoring of fitting requirements for shield rr modules (not to mention there is only 1 shield resist bonused battleship, the rokh, and it's a hybrid platform... so that weapon system would need to be buffed aswell).
The current state of caldari is pathetic. I honestly hope the drake does get nerfed into the ground because at least with that ship out of the way we might get a little attention to the gross imbalance between shield/armor and launchers/turrets in large scale pvp.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.11.01 20:56:00 -
[28]
1-because every noob in space can fly a drake and not so many of them ca fly a raven 2-because when the group is big enough the alpha of heavy missile is big enough to instapop enemy ships (and HML have better damage application than cruise for anything thats smaller than a BS) 3-brake resist bonus is better when you reciveing shield RR 4-more agile and minor other things
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Andy Landen
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:42:00 -
[29]
Given that HAC rules pvp for its size, speed, dps, and tank, the drake trumps the Raven for a reply. Cruise missiles hurt the HAC far less than the Heavy missile. And then there is the importance of speed and alignment in pvp. Many alliances have been massacred and lost hundreds of BS and carriers trying to continue the old school thought that BS reigned in pvp. Given a BS vs HAC fleet, if their BSs cannot hit your HACs for much damage, guess who wins. Drakes on the other hand can hit the HACs much better. The same holds true for HACs versus frigs. What can't be hit, can't be killed (at least, not fast enough) and therefore wins. Funny that no one considers themselves evil, even while caught in the thick of it. |
xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:55:00 -
[30]
Guys, guys, guys...
It really is all about the armor tanking issue.
If the Raven could do an effective armor tank, it would be used in fleet warfare. It cannot, and thus it is not.
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