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Andy Landen
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 23:19:00 -
[31]
Originally by: xxxak Guys, guys, guys...
It really is all about the armor tanking issue.
If the Raven could do an effective armor tank, it would be used in fleet warfare. It cannot, and thus it is not.
Really? How about 83.1k EHP, and resists at 79, 77, 68, 62? See the RR fit below: [Raven, armor] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile Large Remote Armor Repair System II Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Vespa II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
Takes an impressive fleet to pop 85k EHP before RR can get on it, but I am still not advocating the Raven over the Drake in pvp. Funny that no one considers themselves evil, even while caught in the thick of it. |
xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.11.01 23:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Andy Landen
Originally by: xxxak Guys, guys, guys...
It really is all about the armor tanking issue.
If the Raven could do an effective armor tank, it would be used in fleet warfare. It cannot, and thus it is not.
Really? How about 83.1k EHP, and resists at 79, 77, 68, 62? See the RR fit below: [Raven, armor] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Cataclysm Cruise Missile Large Remote Armor Repair System II Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Vespa II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
Takes an impressive fleet to pop 85k EHP before RR can get on it, but I am still not advocating the Raven over the Drake in pvp.
It's a question of relative effectiveness.
You just posted a total, utter, failboat sh*tfit.
It has basically zero DPS, and far, far less EHP than a WELL FIT Amarr ship.
Thanks. Try again.
In a major war, a war where entire constellations are at risk, you don't bring the second best. You bring the best, or you go home dead.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.01 23:27:00 -
[33]
Originally by: xxxak You just posted a total, utter, failboat sh*tfit.
Not harsh enough.
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.11.01 23:30:00 -
[34]
Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 23:33:28 P.S.
Let me be clear about "where I am coming from."
The original post basically asked "why don't we see more Ravens in combat?"
I am providing the answer. It is because they are shield tanked, and shield tanks have no place in battleship battles.
That is indisputable. You are a failure if you try to come up with ways to make a dedicated shield tank ship work in an armor fleet. BS fleets (mid to large scale pvp) are armor fleets.
However, I have no skin the game. I personally fly all PvP ships in EVE (other than the Titans). I use the Raven for PvE. I don't care. But I also don't like stupid people, and you are stupid if you bring a Raven to a fleet fight.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:01:00 -
[35]
Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 23:37:10 Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 23:33:28 P.S.
Let me be clear about "where I am coming from."
The original post basically asked "why don't we see more Ravens in combat?"
I am providing the answer. It is because they are shield tanked, and shield tanks have no place in battleship battles.
That is indisputable. You are a human failure if you try to come up with ways to make a dedicated shield tank ship work in an armor fleet. BS fleets (mid to large scale pvp) are armor fleets.
However, I have no skin the game. I personally fly all PvP ships in EVE (other than the Titans). I use the Raven for PvE. I don't care. But I also don't like stupid people, and you are stupid if you bring a Raven to a fleet fight.
you are dumb just like rest of your alli , go blob something
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:09:00 -
[36]
Edited by: xxxak on 02/11/2010 00:10:27
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 23:37:10 Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 23:33:28 P.S.
Let me be clear about "where I am coming from."
The original post basically asked "why don't we see more Ravens in combat?"
I am providing the answer. It is because they are shield tanked, and shield tanks have no place in battleship battles.
That is indisputable. You are a human failure if you try to come up with ways to make a dedicated shield tank ship work in an armor fleet. BS fleets (mid to large scale pvp) are armor fleets.
However, I have no skin the game. I personally fly all PvP ships in EVE (other than the Titans). I use the Raven for PvE. I don't care. But I also don't like stupid people, and you are stupid if you bring a Raven to a fleet fight.
you are dumb just like rest of your alli , go blob something
Care to say something meaningful to back up your tears, which, I should add, fuel me?
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:45:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Aerilis on 02/11/2010 00:47:20 Pros: About 10-20% more DPS
Cons: Bigger missiles = less damage against small targets You're fatter Lower resists = don't get as much reps from logi More expensive More skill intensive
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 02/11/2010 00:10:27
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 23:37:10 Edited by: xxxak on 01/11/2010 23:33:28 P.S.
Let me be clear about "where I am coming from."
The original post basically asked "why don't we see more Ravens in combat?"
I am providing the answer. It is because they are shield tanked, and shield tanks have no place in battleship battles.
That is indisputable. You are a human failure if you try to come up with ways to make a dedicated shield tank ship work in an armor fleet. BS fleets (mid to large scale pvp) are armor fleets.
However, I have no skin the game. I personally fly all PvP ships in EVE (other than the Titans). I use the Raven for PvE. I don't care. But I also don't like stupid people, and you are stupid if you bring a Raven to a fleet fight.
you are dumb just like rest of your alli , go blob something
Care to say something meaningful to back up your tears, which, I should add, fuel me?
why ? you couldnt understand it anyway
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Helmh0ltz
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Posted - 2010.11.02 01:43:00 -
[39]
Just for the sake of argument.
[Hurr-Dur - Raven Armor Tank]
Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Quad-LiF Fueled Booster Rockets Sensor Booster II [Targeting Range] Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster [Cap Booster 800] [Empty Slot] [Empty Slot]
Cruise Missile Launcher II [Wrath Fury Cruise Missile] Cruise Missile Launcher II [Wrath Fury Cruise Missile] Cruise Missile Launcher II [Wrath Fury Cruise Missile] Cruise Missile Launcher II [Wrath Fury Cruise Missile] Cruise Missile Launcher II [Wrath Fury Cruise Missile] Cruise Missile Launcher II [Wrath Fury Cruise Missile] Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
73,244 EHP 512 DPS
Rest of mids to taste, good options are target painters/eccm/sensor boosters.
Resists are 70.6 67.7 56 47.2 20k armor
On the downside, it takes missiles 17 seconds to reach the target at 150km. ====== Your signature is freakishly huge for this forum. Please resize according to the forum rules, thanks. Shadow. |
Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.02 01:44:00 -
[40]
Herrrp derp, I can armor tank anything, look I put some plats and enams on it!
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr GK inc. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.11.02 02:18:00 -
[41]
Drakes are cheap, two and a half times smaller than a raven, fit a nasty passive shield tank (which will continue to regen through lag), and most importantly (which I'm quite honestly surprised that it took so long to surface in this thread) heavy missiles have the ability to hit afterburning hacs for a decent percentage of their actual damage.
This isn't a question about EHP or tank type, its the question of how high can you get your resistances and how effective can you get your passive regen in case of lag. If not, they're still battlecruisers and can provide a hefty EHP buffer. You must also realize that in high lag situations modules will continue to run without capacitor, making the drake with its approx 1000-1100 m/s far more favorable than the raven which would have trouble outrunning the hics tackling them or the hacs racing straight for them.
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Helmh0ltz
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Posted - 2010.11.02 02:22:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Herrrp derp, I can armor tank anything, look I put some plats and enams on it!
Shut up you suk, armor draks are wave of hte ftuture. ====== Your signature is freakishly huge for this forum. Please resize according to the forum rules, thanks. Shadow. |
Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.02 02:59:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Helmh0ltz
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Herrrp derp, I can armor tank anything, look I put some plats and enams on it!
Shut up you suk, armor draks are wave of hte ftuture.
AND THEY TUK AR JOBS!
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Mike TheMiner
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Posted - 2010.11.02 13:04:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Hannibal Ord
Don't talk ****.
That really is both informative and interesting, maybe you would be tempted in joining my discussion group to share more of your original ideas and thoughts with likeminded intellectuals as yourself.
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CO Bradley
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Posted - 2010.11.02 13:41:00 -
[45]
Edited by: CO Bradley on 02/11/2010 13:44:18
Originally by: Tusen Takk it costs me 38mil to buy and fit and rig a Drake. just the hull of a Raven is 120mil in The Citadel region, not including the large rigs which are hella expensive and the skill intensive cruise and torpedos. sure, 118k ehp is alot, but when you're theh primary target for all of the targets youre engaging in a fleet, that doesnt last very long.
+1, drake will go 119k EHP pretty easy but does crap DPS. Which is why you just get more drakes and win. :)
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.11.02 13:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx Drakes are cheap, two and a half times smaller than a raven, fit a nasty passive shield tank (which will continue to regen through lag), and most importantly (which I'm quite honestly surprised that it took so long to surface in this thread) heavy missiles have the ability to hit afterburning hacs for a decent percentage of their actual damage.
This isn't a question about EHP or tank type, its the question of how high can you get your resistances and how effective can you get your passive regen in case of lag. If not, they're still battlecruisers and can provide a hefty EHP buffer. You must also realize that in high lag situations modules will continue to run without capacitor, making the drake with its approx 1000-1100 m/s far more favorable than the raven which would have trouble outrunning the hics tackling them or the hacs racing straight for them.
This pretty much covers it. Though I'd also add easy to skill for which makes it good for getting the blob into a concept fleet that works. Skilling for the Raven is a fair amount more that you may not be able to persuade non Caldari pilots to do.
As to the MH guy, guessing he hasn't actually logged on in the last 3 months since Drake armies have been pretty much the defacto standard for sov warfare recently. We've used RR BS against them and come out on top out numbered, on paper that shouldn't really happen so skill / SP does still count.
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CO Bradley
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Posted - 2010.11.02 13:45:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx Drakes are cheap, two and a half times smaller than a raven.
Have you verified that? Usually the only fits allowed in fleet that I've utilized make it the size of a small planet (sig size is over 3K!).
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cumere
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Posted - 2010.11.02 16:42:00 -
[48]
Maybe try a passive fitted Raven.As per SILENTBRICK in EON mag issue #021, page 27.
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Dr Chau
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.02 16:45:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Dr Chau on 02/11/2010 16:47:31
Originally by: Tusen Takk it costs me 38mil to buy and fit and rig a Drake. just the hull of a Raven is 120mil in The Citadel region, not including the large rigs which are hella expensive and the skill intensive cruise and torpedos. sure, 118k ehp is alot, but when you're theh primary target for all of the targets youre engaging in a fleet, that doesnt last very long.
that being said, im currently getting my torp skills up so that i can get a whole fleet of battleships up in dat bish and put the wtfpwn on
Maybe if you're buying 2...?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.02 17:01:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Andy Landen
Originally by: xxxak Guys, guys, guys...
It really is all about the armor tanking issue.
If the Raven could do an effective armor tank, it would be used in fleet warfare. It cannot, and thus it is not.
[Terrible non-trimarked fit]
Takes an impressive fleet to pop 85k EHP before RR can get on it, but I am still not advocating the Raven over the Drake in pvp.
No it doesn't. RR BS EHP starts at 100k or GTFO. 5 cap rechargers and 3 CCC rigs? Jesus, it's like you never heard of cap boosters.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.11.02 17:25:00 -
[51]
Edited by: xxxak on 02/11/2010 17:26:52 I never said that Drakes should not be used in PvP or that Drakes are not used in PvP.
I have seen the Drake blobs.
I am saying that Ravens are no good for fleet battles. Why can't you understand me. Are you mentally challenged?
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.02 17:45:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Malcanis Raven fits
I'ved used an armor/damp fit akin to the second one you posted. It's a bit pants-on-head, but gets the job done if you MUST fly a raven. +1
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Tusen Takk
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
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Posted - 2010.11.02 17:53:00 -
[53]
Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 02/11/2010 17:26:52 I never said that Drakes should not be used in PvP or that Drakes are not used in PvP.
I have seen the Drake blobs.
I am saying that Ravens are no good for fleet battles. Why can't you understand me. Are you mentally challenged?
this
ravens are great ships, but a drake or two can killed it, esp if the raven is piloted by a nooby booby, which is reallly bloody common since rookies are like OMG BATTLESHIP THAT SOUNDS COOL
amarr battleships and the hyperion ftw
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.11.03 00:17:00 -
[54]
Armor tank in lows, RSD's in mids, and cruise in highs.
Bingo, you have an 100k ehp armor tank, with 4-5 RSD's that'll drive hostile logi's bat**** insane, with about 300 dps without drones.
Armor tanked fleet raven.
Or hell, put remote ECCM on your logis, or put remote sensor boosters on them. Let the other ships deal with the repping, you can deal with either boosting your own logis, or screwing with the enemies. ------------------------
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Lurana Lay
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.03 10:42:00 -
[55]
Low resist, small buffer, armor tank Raven with no (or few)damage mods coupled with Cruise missile flightime = gtfo. Almost ANYTHING is better.
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Kizahhan
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Posted - 2010.11.03 10:59:00 -
[56]
Raven BPO costs 1b, raven hull around 69-74m, fully fit tech 2 with rigs around 130m Drake BPO costs 350m, drake hull around 22-24m, fully fit tech 2 with rigs around 56m
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Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.11.03 18:51:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Footoo Rama The downside is they take alot longer to align, and get out of bubbles.
fyp
They actually don't take that much longer to align than BC's, just cycle the MWD once while aligning, the heaviest plated + trimarked BS in the game will still warp out in 10 seconds. Found it hilarious once in a support domi with some BC's I warped before some of the BC's in gang.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.11.04 18:51:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tusen Takk it costs me 38mil to buy and fit and rig a Drake. just the hull of a Raven is 120mil in The Citadel region,
I would highly suggest you get out a little more. Ravens are down to 69 mil. Drakes are down to 24 mil. Sounds like it's again worth it to buy low and sell high.
And a rigged raven hull (CCC Rigs) are down to 92 mil MAX. Even CN BCSs are falling past the 90 mil mark. Too much money in EVE!!! GIVE ME SOME OF IT!!!
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TheKalila
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Posted - 2010.11.04 19:43:00 -
[59]
I think the point that some people are missing.
I dont think the OP was saying, "why don't people fly Ravens as a part of NORMAL fleets?"
But more along the lines of, "If Drake only fleets are common, why not instead Raven only" upon the same merits as Drake.
My remark about shield RR and a few remarks about buffer and speed of the Drake were all on topic.
However this thread has derailed into a "ZOMG U CANT UZ A RAVEN IN A FLEET GUY U JUZ CANT" nerd rage.
I think a Raven only fleet would do just fine, with rigors and TPs they can actually hit support quite well. The problem is Drakes are more effective and shield RR is anoyingly restrictive. As well as the fact that the other 3 races are better off in armor, leaving the Raven out in the cold.
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Troll Sterger
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Posted - 2010.11.04 23:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dodgy Past
As to the MH guy, guessing he hasn't actually logged on in the last 3 months since Drake armies have been pretty much the defacto standard for sov warfare recently. We've used RR BS against them and come out on top out numbered, on paper that shouldn't really happen so skill / SP does still count.
Numbers aside, why shouldn't that happen?
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