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Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
116
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Artillery is fantastic due high volley damage, selectable damage type, no capacitor cost, and the ability to reach out far with high optimal and falloff. With the tracking enhancers buffed, Artillery can do solid damage past 70km using the shortest range high damage ammo.
It is balanced out by low overall sustained dps, poor tracking, and demanding fitting cost.
But where does that leave Railguns and Beam lasers?
These are currently lacking and broken in many ways.
Both Weapon systems require capacitor to fire and have a fixed damage type. Both weapons have trouble fitting on medium and smaller class of ships.
Beams see use with the Tachyon Beam laser. The Tachyon Beam Lasers has good range, best tracking for long range, and DPS close to Mega Pulse lasers.
Balanced out by high capacitor usage and extremely demanding fitting that prevents an sort of tank to be put on the ship, unless your sacrifice fitting mods to do so.
Tachyon Beams are powerful, but fairly limiting weapons. These weapons are supposed to be a class above 425mm, 1400mm, and mega beams.
The rest of the beam lasers are not fantastic however. Regular beam lasers are rather paltry when you can use pulse lasers with scorch crystals. The high pg requirements make them rather difficult to fit, the loss of tracking, dps, and more cap usage for an increase in range make them only good for very niche situations that rarely occurs.
Now lets talk about one of the worst weapon systems in the game: Railguns (aka Failguns)
Railguns are in most cases meaningless. They do least volley damage out of all the turrets in the game, and have one of the lowest dps, about 10% better than artillery for several times less volley)
They wield the weakness of both Artillery and Beams, but has the strengths of neither.
The only advantage they have is range. Railguns requires ships that have range bonus to truly shine in that category. But that range difference between railguns and artillery are minor thanks to tracking enhancer buffs.
Sniping mechanics have been rendered mostly useless thanks to ongrid probing and 150km on-grid warp range.
Beams and Railguns IMHO should get a look at and be adjusted to provide another trait besides longer range. (Artillery has Alpha and Range, Beams and Railguns have only range)
TL:DR:
Beam lasers need more reasons to fit than better range.
Railguns need some seriously help.
What can we do to fix these weapon systems? |
AndromacheDarkstar
Fiscal Fisting Inc.
67
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Add on top the complete mess that armour tanking is at the moment and you have a character like me mostly trained to fly amarr left struggling feeling a little let down.
What made things worse was the addition of the ASB (which is fantastic) for shield tankers while armour got some god awfull module which barely has any effect. |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
116
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:Add on top the complete mess that armour tanking is at the moment and you have a character like me mostly trained to fly amarr left struggling feeling a little let down.
What made things worse was the addition of the ASB (which is fantastic) for shield tankers while armour got some god awfull module which barely has any effect.
Being able to fly all races gets you a feel how certain things are far better than what they do compared to other things in the same category.
Gallente frigates are one of the best in the game where close range brawling is common. But their cruisers and battleships suffer due to the increase in engagement range where blasters scale poorly along with nonsensical racial philosophies(slow, fat armor tanking ships with the shortest range weapons in the game). |
Luis Graca
137
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
only have range is it so bad knowing you can kill people and they can't kill you |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8893
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Extend maximum range. Remove on-grid probing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
116
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Luis Graca wrote:only have range is it so bad knowing you can kill people and they can't kill you
The same can be said if you move in close and get under their guns. You can kill them and they can't kill you.
Artillery has a distinct ability of high alpha along with longer range.
Beams and Railguns do not offer anything other than longer range.
With probing engagement ranges are usually 70-100km max range.
This where 1400mm artillery excel at with tracking enhances that not only increase optimal but greatly increases the already large falloff of artillery. Which also them to simply use the short range high damage ammunition within that engagement range.
While Railguns and Beams must switch to weaker longer range ammo. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
615
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Luis Graca wrote:only have range is it so bad knowing you can kill people and they can't kill you
Yeah fighting minmitar does suck. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
274
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Beam lasers have the problem of being too similar to mega pulse lasers with scorch. In my opinion, the vision of what beam lasers are supposed to be needs to be updated. The logical thing would be making all beam lasers more like the Tachyon Beam Laser which is the only beam laser that's still used.
What makes the Tachyon Beam Laser different? It has 50% higher alpha than mega beams and also does good dps (for a sniper weapon). An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Pilna Vcelka
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Confirming railguns are in bad shape and need some sweet, sweet lovin.
I mean, come on, just look at commonly used fleet set-ups or tournament fleets, how many railboats do you see? |
Alara IonStorm
2892
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Posted - 2012.08.06 08:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rails are pretty well used on Rokh's and Naga's. High RoF makes their low volley better in higher numbers while range makes them do a higher % of their damage at ranges where a Maelstrom is in falloff.
Beams are overshadowed by Megapulse Scorch outside the Sniper Role what with their high fitting costs and heavy Cap consumption.
As for medium weapons falloff, favorable fitting and Double Dmg Bonuses save medium Art from the toilet but Heavy Missile Spam comes from being able to project 360 to 420(Fury) out to 60-85km-ish while all the others are pumping 200-250 at 50km while using up most of their grid.
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Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
407
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Posted - 2012.08.06 08:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pilna Vcelka wrote:Confirming railguns are in bad shape and need some sweet, sweet lovin.
I mean, come on, just look at commonly used fleet set-ups or tournament fleets, how many railboats do you see?
Yeah... rails suck and need a buff... vindi could use some love too. I want 100km targeting range and 10% more dps.... and another mid slot to web ever moar.
"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1240
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Posted - 2012.08.06 08:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Extend maximum range. Remove on-grid probing. Extending maximum range would be interesting ... I think you can get railboats to like 300km optimal, while of course you can't shoot that far ... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
103
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Posted - 2012.08.06 09:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
I want to field Tachys on my Apocs and 'geddons without shitting up half my low rack with RCUs.
It is my take on this that the turret itself should be it's own balancing factor. Indirect "challenges" like inflated fitting requirements are not effective neither appropriate balancing methods. Really, 425s and Tachyons fighting within standard tackling ranges? You're going to miss damn near everything every time. Why the stupendous fitting nerf and cap usage annoyance? At that point, nobody care if you can or cannot fit a tank as well; you'll just die slightly slower anyway.
Fitting requirements have no business being higher for the sole reason they boast higher optimal and alpha numbers. The turret itself (tracking and sig. resolution) require preparation and favourable situation to be effective. That's all the balancing they really need. Obnoxious fitting and activation cost accomplishes little for balancing but worsening them; makes them unattractive to even think about outside of the very few hulls that can field these type of turrets without major fitting wizardry.
Fix? Relax fitting requirements. All 5 fitting skills? Let us go nuts. The attributes, by themselves, will decide what's hot or not. Artificial overdone fitting reqs needs to die. |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:Artillery is fantastic due high volley damage, selectable damage type, no capacitor cost, and the ability to reach out far with high optimal and falloff. With the tracking enhancers buffed, Artillery can do solid damage past 70km using the shortest range high damage ammo.
It is balanced out by low overall sustained dps, poor tracking, and demanding fitting cost.
But where does that leave Railguns and Beam lasers?
These are currently lacking and broken in many ways.
Both Weapon systems require capacitor to fire and have a fixed damage type. Both weapons have trouble fitting on medium and smaller class of ships.
Beams see use with the Tachyon Beam laser. The Tachyon Beam Lasers has good range, best tracking for long range, and DPS close to Mega Pulse lasers.
Balanced out by high capacitor usage and extremely demanding fitting that prevents an sort of tank to be put on the ship, unless your sacrifice fitting mods to do so.
Tachyon Beams are powerful, but fairly limiting weapons. These weapons are supposed to be a class above 425mm, 1400mm, and mega beams.
The rest of the beam lasers are not fantastic however. Regular beam lasers are rather paltry when you can use pulse lasers with scorch crystals. The high pg requirements make them rather difficult to fit, the loss of tracking, dps, and more cap usage for an increase in range make them only good for very niche situations that rarely occurs.
Now lets talk about one of the worst weapon systems in the game: Railguns (aka Failguns)
Railguns are in most cases meaningless. They do least volley damage out of all the turrets in the game, and have one of the lowest dps, about 10% better than artillery for several times less volley)
They wield the weakness of both Artillery and Beams, but has the strengths of neither.
The only advantage they have is range. Railguns requires ships that have range bonus to truly shine in that category. But that range difference between railguns and artillery are minor thanks to tracking enhancer buffs.
Sniping mechanics have been rendered mostly useless thanks to ongrid probing and 150km on-grid warp range.
Beams and Railguns IMHO should get a look at and be adjusted to provide another trait besides longer range. (Artillery has Alpha and Range, Beams and Railguns have only range)
TL:DR:
Beam lasers need more reasons to fit than better range.
Railguns need some seriously help.
What can we do to fix these weapon systems?
What to do? Maybe STOP WHINNING and check reality?
Arties have on advantage alpha strike, the capacitor usage factor is relevant when shooting POSs, but for that you have dreads most of time. Alpha strike main advantage is in smaller fleets , after you have 1000 ships you can alpha anything subcapital even with t1 railguns. So its a great advantage.. on a VERY SPECIFIC RANGE of engagement size.
Beams have FAR FAR higher DPS and FAR higher tracking (yes compare the dam numbers).
Railguns have longest range and decent DPS and decent tracking (both quite better than arties). Railbots can drop soem range moduels in favor of other modules.
Long range guns are EXTREMELY well balanced! If they were not then Rokhs would not be used so much currently!
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Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sphit Ker wrote:I want to field Tachys on my Apocs and 'geddons without shitting up half my low rack with RCUs.
It is my take on this that the turret itself should be it's own balancing factor. Indirect "challenges" like inflated fitting requirements are not effective neither appropriate balancing methods. Really, 425s and Tachyons fighting within standard tackling ranges? You're going to miss damn near everything every time. Why the stupendous fitting nerf and cap usage annoyance? At that point, nobody care if you can or cannot fit a tank as well; you'll just die slightly slower anyway.
Fitting requirements have no business being higher for the sole reason they boast higher optimal and alpha numbers. The turret itself (tracking and sig. resolution) require preparation and favourable situation to be effective. That's all the balancing they really need. Obnoxious fitting and activation cost accomplishes little for balancing but worsening them; makes them unattractive to even think about outside of the very few hulls that can field these type of turrets without major fitting wizardry.
Fix? Relax fitting requirements. All 5 fitting skills? Let us go nuts. The attributes, by themselves, will decide what's hot or not. Artificial overdone fitting reqs needs to die.
Probably fitting issues with disapear when the tiercide rebalance reach battleships. Until then we have to cope with this minor issues. Its not like as temepsts can fit 1400mm T2 much more easily than an apoc can field tachyons.... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8903
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:Long range guns are EXTREMELY well balanced! If they were not then Rokhs would not be used so much currently! GǪaside from the fact that the one factor that is really meant to differentiate them has largely been rendered irrelevant due to other mechanics (probing). So the GÇ£extremeGÇ¥ balance is only on paper and only if you look at the guns on their own without any kind of context. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2247
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rails are the weapon by which TEST's conquest of Delve, Querious and Period Basis was wrought, you know. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
49
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Posted - 2012.08.06 11:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Make it more reasonable to fit on sub-BS ships, and take less cap (in case of rails). I just can't work out sub-BS rail or beam fits which are decent, mostly because they are so hard to actually fit on ships.
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Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
370
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Posted - 2012.08.06 11:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
I don't understand how many threads have to be made on this topic for ccp to listen.
:((((((((((((((((((( |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2247
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cpt Branko wrote:Make it more reasonable to fit on sub-BS ships, and take less cap (in case of rails). I just can't work out sub-BS rail or beam fits which are decent, mostly because they are so hard to actually fit on ships.
I've totally ganked dumb people in a rainbow-beam coercer before. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
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Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2247
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Posted - 2012.08.06 11:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Goremageddon Box wrote:I don't understand how many threads have to be made on this topic for ccp to listen.
:(((((((((((((((((((
They probably won't listen because they know both weapon systems are fine atm.
Feel free to look at modern nullsec fleet compositions. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1597
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Rails are the weapon by which TEST's conquest of Delve, Querious and Period Basis was wrought, you know.
pretty sure they weren't EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2247
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Rails are the weapon by which TEST's conquest of Delve, Querious and Period Basis was wrought, you know. pretty sure they weren't
Rokhs proved themselves on the battlefield multiple times during the war.
That said, I'm pretty sure there's a mindflood dealer out there profiting on my extensive hatred of their cap inefficiency. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
75
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Posted - 2012.08.06 11:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.
Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2247
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
Archdaimon wrote:The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.
Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns.
The fit we use only has an extra 8% EHP. The reason we use it is because of range flexibility and high ROF. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1597
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Archdaimon wrote:The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.
Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns. The fit we use only has an extra 8% EHP. The reason we use it is because of range flexibility and high ROF.
How often do you find yourself engaging past 100km in fleets? EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
89
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Posted - 2012.08.06 11:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Pilna Vcelka wrote:Confirming railguns are in bad shape and need some sweet, sweet lovin.
I mean, come on, just look at commonly used fleet set-ups or tournament fleets, how many railboats do you see?
Yeah, imagine people using rokhs ......
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Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1004
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Posted - 2012.08.06 11:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Small rails are perfectly fine and absolutely lethal on frigs.
Medium rails should be adjusted for easier fitting, but I've found them usable now with the 5-second ammo switch time.
Most of the problems are not in rails, but in other weapon systems- why two races have to have selectable damage types? Why so much alpha on arties? Why heavy missiles have such a long range?
These are the elements that affect vast areas of EVE, and make rails look comparatively bad.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
24
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Posted - 2012.08.06 12:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Seishi Maru wrote:Long range guns are EXTREMELY well balanced! If they were not then Rokhs would not be used so much currently! GǪaside from the fact that the one factor that is really meant to differentiate them has largely been rendered irrelevant due to other mechanics (probing). So the GǣextremeGǥ balance is only on paper and only if you look at the guns on their own without any kind of context.
Respectfully, no. Rokh's range bonus is not a range bonus per se, as you hit a hard max with Javelins anyway. What that range bonus is actually used for is more damage - since Rokh can hit further than other ships of its kind, the pilot can switch to a shorter range ammo for higher dps. Currently, Rokh with 425mms and lead ammo can hit optimal at about 125km, whereas an equally geared Megathron (just as an example) would only hit 72km out and would have to switch to lower dps iron charges for similar range. The difference is almost 30% in favor of Rokh. Of course, Naga goes beyond Rokh for obvious reasons.
That's not to say that something should not be done about on-grid scanning, but I wouldn't go so far as to outright kill it. If you make you fleet vulnerable, you should hurt. Besides, there are other ways to find the ships. Come to think of it - what about a form of probe scramble module? Something that wouldn't outright prevent probing, but would make it more difficult. Frankly, add bonuses to that module to destroyers and voila, you have a viable fleet role for the ship type - sniper protection :D |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2248
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 12:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Archdaimon wrote:The use of the Rokh is not because rails are great. As you said yourself any weapon would have been able to give what ever damage needed as long as it fits in large numbers.
Rokh is being used for awesome shield tanking. Not because of its guns. The fit we use only has an extra 8% EHP. The reason we use it is because of range flexibility and high ROF. How often do you find yourself engaging past 100km in fleets?
Go back to your drake. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
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