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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.06 23:04:00 -
[61]
Quote: The Dramiel doesn't cost anything to make (about 300k in minerals at jita prices), the reason why they cost 70mil is because of demand/supply (The blueprint drops from Domination rats and Angel plexes). So to dramatically increase the price you would have to toy with loot tables. I don't think making it more expensive would make it any less prevelant as it is now though, it simply sets the bar higher for people who want to fight on par with Dramiels. They will still be flown and still dominate frigate combat. I don't think having a frigate which dominates everything else is 'elite', I think it is the opposite, since it is the 'easy mode' frigate. I don't understand how eve is more or any less of a "grind" by making the Dramiel more in line.
I am aware of how the market works. In this case I recommend reducing drop rates of the Dramiel Blueprint by half and increasing it's base cost from pirate NPC agents by 2x.
I am absolutely certain that price of an item has significant effect on its usage in PvP. For a case study, I suggest you look at history of rigs, before and after CCP decided to split them into 'large', 'medium', 'small' - and thus reduce rigging costs for sub-battleship by about 10x More specifically, look at history of Drake's popularity and its perceived superiority over that history period. Careful examination should show that Drakes became noticeably better after costs of fitting 3x shield extender rigs dropped from 60 mil to 10 mil. It even led to people starting to whine about it being overpowered.
As it is now, the cost of Dramiel is simply too cheap considering the power it provides. Much like the situation with medium shield rigs. While costs alone can't have significant changes to game balance, they are a fine tool for making surgical adjustment to overall game balance. Not the sledge hammer approach that CCP favors - completely destroying parts of the game as knee jerk reaction to popular whines.
Dramiel should not suffer the sledge hammer fate.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari Technomage Trilogy Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: LordElfa
Originally by: Hesperius I fly the Dramiel, it is over powered. The only reasons to fly a frig that is not a Dramiel is because you know you will be suicide tackling, or you are in a covert ops.
Are you saying that you want your 70,000,000 isk frig to be nerfed?
Believe it or not, some people actually care more about game balance then their own personal benefit.
It happens. I know, it's a shock. But it happens. -More Pewpew, Less QQ- |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:34:00 -
[63]
Ragnarok/Leviathan can kill dramiel. So clearly dramiel doesnt need nerf. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.07 12:01:00 -
[64]
Originally by: LordElfa Your Utu cost 30 bil because of it's rarity, not demand.
It costs 30b because of demand actually. It costs that much since there is only 48 of them ingame, therefore supply is incredibly limited and exclusive.
Regardless, I was using the point that price shouldn't be the only balancing factor... look at the old Titans prior to REV2. ---
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.07 12:28:00 -
[65]
The vast majority of BPCs are not from drops, the loot tables are *******sed bad enough for that not to be true (now that the dropped BPOs have been removed ).
LP store from the Angel agents is where it's at .. balance all the pirate agents if you want to solve that part of the equation. There is absolutely no reason for one faction to have more/better agents than another.
Hell, have a couple of Devs sit down with the content crew and move agents around and/or change gate connections to make running pirate missions less of a "Tralalala" all the way to the bank.
Might even make the alternative faction ships more attractive thus diluting the Angel presence in space.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.07 19:42:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The vast majority of BPCs are not from drops, the loot tables are *******sed bad enough for that not to be true (now that the dropped BPOs have been removed ).
LP store from the Angel agents is where it's at .. balance all the pirate agents if you want to solve that part of the equation. There is absolutely no reason for one faction to have more/better agents than another.
Hell, have a couple of Devs sit down with the content crew and move agents around and/or change gate connections to make running pirate missions less of a "Tralalala" all the way to the bank.
Might even make the alternative faction ships more attractive thus diluting the Angel presence in space.
You got a point there. In my experience BPCs drop very rarely from NPC hunting. Pirate lp store is where it's at.
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Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.12.08 05:22:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The vast majority of BPCs are not from drops, the loot tables are *******sed bad enough for that not to be true (now that the dropped BPOs have been removed ).
LP store from the Angel agents is where it's at .. balance all the pirate agents if you want to solve that part of the equation. There is absolutely no reason for one faction to have more/better agents than another.
Hell, have a couple of Devs sit down with the content crew and move agents around and/or change gate connections to make running pirate missions less of a "Tralalala" all the way to the bank.
Might even make the alternative faction ships more attractive thus diluting the Angel presence in space.
hmmm maybe you want to nerf daredavil pricing too, and other 0.0 agents all over.. or even better maybe nerf high sec lvl4 missions because they pay too much for no risk.
btw, on dramiel nerf not supported, plenty of counters in game to kill dramiels
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.08 07:27:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Miss President hmmm maybe you want to nerf daredavil pricing too, and other 0.0 agents all over.. or even better maybe nerf high sec lvl4 missions because they pay too much for no risk...
Huh? Reading deficient I presume, so I'll elaborate.
Location of agents working for Angels are more easily mission spammable (agent clusters). Angels currently have 3+ times the number of Blood Raiders agents, 2+ times that of Serpentis and 3+ times that of Guristas .. the only other faction that is even close is Sansha, but anyone familiar with Eve history knows the reason for that (RP was huge in Eve once upon a time, go figure).
Can you give me a rational reason for such HUGE discrepancies? Even them out either by increasing other factions or decreasing Angels and prices of the various faction hulls will equalize somewhat thus making the choice of an Angel over any other less of a given.
Clear enough?
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Soldarius
Independent Coalition DEM0N HUNTERS
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Posted - 2010.12.08 07:56:00 -
[69]
Dramiel is OP for whatever reason. double damage bonus, drone bay, ludicrous speed...
I order you to stop!
If daredevils are the counter of the dramiel, why aren't they all over the place, even with the triple damage bonus? Because they are more balanced. Fikz it.
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed."
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Maylin Li
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.08 11:19:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Maylin Li on 08/12/2010 11:18:42
Originally by: Soldarius Dramiel is OP for whatever reason. double damage bonus, drone bay, ludicrous speed...
I order you to stop!
If daredevils are the counter of the dramiel, why aren't they all over the place, even with the triple damage bonus? Because they are more balanced. Fikz it.
Because Daredevils actually have a good chance of dying when they commit to scram range (No dual prop, slower, vulnerable to neuts, much less range, no drone bay, no damage outside web range) where as Dramiel is easy mode get out with more EHP and can beat most daredevils by starting the fight at 7-8km or so, takes the DD about 8 seconds to get into range even with ab/scram/web, more if it actually has a mwd fit, and by that time it has taken too much damage.
TL;DR Daredevils have a difficult time un-commiting from a fight, Dramiel does not.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.12.08 11:24:00 -
[71]
/Supported
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2010.12.08 15:02:00 -
[72]
Dramiel doesn't need a nerf.
MAYBE reduce the speed a little bit or something but that's it.
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:03:00 -
[73]
You know, if they changed MWDs to be less agile, the Dram wouldn't "need" a nerf.
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Maylin Li
Caldari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:47:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Corina Jarr You know, if they changed MWDs to be less agile, the Dram wouldn't "need" a nerf.
Increasing the mass on MWDs to nerf the Dramiel (and in doing so, nerf every other ship that fits one, end result, dramiel still OP) to Spite the Dramiel is stupid. The problem isn't so much the Dramiels agility - although that is a small problem in itself since nothing can really catch a Dramiel in Empire space save from ******ed sensor booster fits.
The problem, as outlined in this thread.
- It can do as much DPS as most damage orientated Interceptors - It has about 1.5x to 2x the EHP as most combat orientated Interceptors - It is significantly faster and more agile than damage orientated Interceptors - It can fit a dual prop while maintaining this EHP advantage (4 slots) - It has a lot of tracking/range independent DPS (Drones) - It can kite easily in scram range, and has a falloff bonus with Autocannons so can do decent damage to the edge of this range. - It also gets a utility small energy neutraliser, and plenty of cap to run it with ab/scram
The counters to the Dramiel (Ab/Scram/Web fits) need to have similar DPS output and EHP to the Dramiel in order to actually kill it. This pretty much leaves the Ishkur/Jaguar/Daredevil as the effective counters, fitted in ab/scram/web fits they are incredibly vulnerable to other ships in gate camps and in PVP, The Dramiel has the option to entirely ignore them too. They also have much less options to escape than the Dramiel.
The Dramiel simply does everything while having none of the weaknesses that the similar ships and counters to it face. The Speed/Agility on it means that it cannot hardly ever be forced into an engagement in lowsec space, and in 0.0 save from mass sensor booster recon/hac camps it is safe.
So yes, it needs a nerf, I don't know where to nerf it, but personally, I think it either needs a mid swapped for a low, the drone bay removed, or the agility/speed toned down to firetail/rifter level. Right now it does too much damage, with too much effective hitpoints, with too speed. It's ok for it to do 2 of those things, but not all of them while being able to fit dual prop and mse.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:51:00 -
[75]
EVE needs elite ships, not just on supercap level.
It's the most powerful frig, and it should be rare and expensive. It shouldn't be only fun to fly, it should also be fun to kill. And people always have a lot of fun when they kill something really expensive - that's why people wet their pants every time they score a mothership or titan kill.
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Fistme
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:55:00 -
[76]
Why the ship has 15m3 dronebay is beyond me... Good dmg, best speed, capless weapons, good ehp and a very large drone bay for a frigate.... Clearly OP, anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron, nuff said. Stop circle jerking to 514 cpp, lets fix simple balance issues instead of making console exclusive drivel that will be rolled by the next halo or COD clone.
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Marak Mocam
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Posted - 2010.12.09 01:37:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote: The Dramiel doesn't cost anything to make (about 300k in minerals at jita prices), the reason why they cost 70mil is because of demand/supply (The blueprint drops from Domination rats and Angel plexes). So to dramatically increase the price you would have to toy with loot tables. I don't think making it more expensive would make it any less prevelant as it is now though, it simply sets the bar higher for people who want to fight on par with Dramiels. They will still be flown and still dominate frigate combat. I don't think having a frigate which dominates everything else is 'elite', I think it is the opposite, since it is the 'easy mode' frigate. I don't understand how eve is more or any less of a "grind" by making the Dramiel more in line.
I am aware of how the market works. In this case I recommend reducing drop rates of the Dramiel Blueprint by half and increasing it's base cost from pirate NPC agents by 2x.
I am absolutely certain that price of an item has significant effect on its usage in PvP. For a case study, I suggest you look at history of rigs, before and after CCP decided to split them into 'large', 'medium', 'small' - and thus reduce rigging costs for sub-battleship by about 10x More specifically, look at history of Drake's popularity and its perceived superiority over that history period. Careful examination should show that Drakes became noticeably better after costs of fitting 3x shield extender rigs dropped from 60 mil to 10 mil. It even led to people starting to whine about it being overpowered.
As it is now, the cost of Dramiel is simply too cheap considering the power it provides. Much like the situation with medium shield rigs. While costs alone can't have significant changes to game balance, they are a fine tool for making surgical adjustment to overall game balance. Not the sledge hammer approach that CCP favors - completely destroying parts of the game as knee jerk reaction to popular whines.
Dramiel should not suffer the sledge hammer fate.
You do make a good point.
If the Dram went up in costs significantly, it's popularity would suffer. The cost-performance ratio comes into discussion on many fits and usage discussions -- clearly officer equipment is superior but you don't find much respect for sub-capital ships that show these in use for PvP...
A price increase, due to rarity and manufacturing costs, might address the dram better than a nerf. "Too expensive..." is a common no-go statement for ships in PvP.
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Nauplius
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2010.12.09 03:36:00 -
[78]
Supported.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2010.12.10 06:00:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 10/12/2010 06:01:08 Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 10/12/2010 06:00:32
Originally by: Ephemeron EVE needs elite ships, not just on supercap level.
It's the most powerful frig, and it should be rare and expensive. It shouldn't be only fun to fly, it should also be fun to kill. And people always have a lot of fun when they kill something really expensive - that's why people wet their pants every time they score a mothership or titan kill.
QFT
Regardless, the damn thing is to be fixed by stat shifting, not the price. Else one may wonder - why exactly Angel ships are to be that special with their doubled (or w/e) price you suggest. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
KOLBASOID
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Posted - 2010.12.14 05:30:00 -
[80]
/support
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Shaera Taam
Minmatar Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.26 09:31:00 -
[81]
/me does not support
i'm not the first to say it, but i will happily re-iterate the right (not the easiest) thing to do: buff and balance all the other faction frigs!
if the dram has a special place in CCP's heart and is destined to be the 'best' frig out there, that's fine... but lets see if we can get the other faction frigs a bit more polish, so maybe they can fight their way out of the dram's shadow?
/me would support *that* __________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
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Posted - 2010.12.26 10:36:00 -
[82]
I hate when I get in my fractional frigate, the Dramiel, only the find that part of it is always missing! WTH
You can't balance a faction ship by artificially reducing the cost of a specific hull, you would have to adjust the prices of the entire pirate faction frigate linup. If you tampered with the LP costs of BPCs and the loot tables to make all the faction ships more expensive, the most popular of them would still cost the most.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2010.12.26 14:47:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Dorian Tormak on 26/12/2010 14:51:49 **** nerfing the dramiel...
Every one of those I've engaged in my Jag I have beaten...
It is only as good a frig as the Cynabal is a cruiser.
It's good at running away from the best frigs and that's it, sure that makes it good for solo but goddamn that doesn't mean it needs a nerf.
The reason it's so popular is the same reason the rifter is so popular - all the people who suck start shouting "hey this ship is best for solo its better than any other frig use it for solo!!" and all the ******s who follow FOTM **** will use it. And after that anyone you ask which is best will yell out that ship. Then you go why? and they go BECAUSE OF BARRAGE or some other bull****.
Not that I actually care... go ahead and nerf it itll just make them easier to kill before their friends show up.
EDIT - MAYBE get rid of the drone bay, that's probably what gives it that edge people see.
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2010.12.26 19:39:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Dibsi Dei on 26/12/2010 19:39:21 Massively supported.
-1 medium slot would balance the ship with other faction frigates while not making it just another firetail.
Also of course an assault frigate would beat dramiel or any other t1 frigate, that's what they are for.
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2010.12.26 19:47:00 -
[85]
The sooner people like you figure out that faction ships aren't T1 the better, and the sooner you realize that if I flew a dramiel it would wreck a jaguar every time the better.
The Dramiel IS better than the jag but not by much, it's just that the idiots who fly it suck ****.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.12.28 09:26:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 28/12/2010 09:29:26 Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 28/12/2010 09:28:55 Frigate with a cruiser-sized dronebay (imagine how BIG will be 3 attack-ready drones) and signature which is 7 points bigger than a shuttle!? C'mon. I don't know what kind of weed devs smoked creating such ship, but it's totally a nano-cruiser, not the frigate. I see three ways to deal with it's OPness: 1. Remove dronebay. That's illogical to give dronebay with approx. 75-p signature drones in it to a 32-p signature frigate. Or, at least, double it's signature. 2. Nerf it's scan resolution. (990, GODDAMIT, it can lock on anything in 1-2 seconds.) 3. Nerf it's speed. Even dualweb sometimes fail to stop it.
It have too much bonuses for a one ship.
Oh, also make it cost 1 billion. If ppl want such ship with this bonuses they should pay it's real price.
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Intar Medris
Amarr EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
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Posted - 2010.12.28 09:58:00 -
[87]
Well I meet a dramiel with my BS once. Damn thing is almost as strong as a cruiser. What ever happened to not anyone ship being overpower I Make Forums For Corps And Alliances. 50 Mil ISK See Example Forum To Get A Idea of What Your's Could Look Like Example Forum |
Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.28 10:49:00 -
[88]
Hi.
Faction frigates are supposed to be a combination of an assault ship and interceptor. Say 60% assault ship and 40% interceptor or 20% assault ship and 80% interceptor.
Unfortunately the Dramiel is 85% assault ship and 120% interceptor.
Oh well, let the debate continue.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.28 11:12:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The vast majority of BPCs are not from drops, the loot tables are *******sed bad enough for that not to be true (now that the dropped BPOs have been removed ).
I'd not be so sure about that. I got 7 Dramiel BPCs from running the same 2/10 about 30 times in 5 days. Sometimes it'd not drop anything, but I also got a truckload of gistii MWDs and small boosters.
It does take about 5 minutes to run that plex in an AF, and then about 1,5 hours waiting for respawn.
Some of the locals seem to farm it 23/7.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.12.28 11:31:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 28/12/2010 09:29:26 Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 28/12/2010 09:28:55 Frigate with a cruiser-sized dronebay (imagine how BIG will be 3 attack-ready drones) and signature which is 7 points bigger than a shuttle!? C'mon. I don't know what kind of weed devs smoked creating such ship, but it's totally a nano-cruiser, not the frigate. I see three ways to deal with it's OPness: 1. Remove dronebay. That's illogical to give dronebay with approx. 75-p signature drones in it to a 32-p signature frigate. Or, at least, double it's signature. 2. Nerf it's scan resolution. (990, GODDAMIT, it can lock on anything in 1-2 seconds.) 3. Nerf it's speed. Even dualweb sometimes fail to stop it.
It have too much bonuses for a one ship.
Oh, also make it cost 1 billion. If ppl want such ship with this bonuses they should pay it's real price.
I do hope this is sarcasm
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