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Eclampsia
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Posted - 2010.11.15 18:32:00 -
[1]
It is obvious that dramiel is overpowered frigate, which has an unique position in frigsize rating.
Dramiel has a very wide range of targets and has good ability to escape from a battle. This ship has a good damage and also has a chance in many cases to leave the clausefight and escape.
It would be logical to cut the dramiel speed in 10-15%
Dramiel faster than the fastest interceptors, while still having good fitting solutions, has good DPS like assauls ships.
IMHO it is to much for one ship.
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matthiastee
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Posted - 2010.11.15 18:44:00 -
[2]
Edited by: matthiastee on 15/11/2010 18:46:48 oh **** someone has some balls you are going to get flamed.
EDIT: but you are right look at the cynabal/vagabond almost the same speed so therefore shouldnt the jag/daredevil be close to the same speed?
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.15 18:52:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 15/11/2010 18:52:26 The dramiel is hilariously overpowered
Edit: fix some of the currently underpowered faction ship while we're there.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.11.15 19:06:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Suitonia on 15/11/2010 19:05:45 Yeah, I agree the Dramiel is overpowered, and it has really hurt Frigate PvP in a lot of areas. The main reasons for this I think is it has the best slot layout, it can easily fit a dual prop setup with a medium shield extender, giving it almost twice the EHP of a standard DCII Taranis, while also going twice as fast, similar dps with much better ranges, kiting ability and ability to leave, twice as agile, and capless weapons, as well as a healthy portion of its DPS in drones which work at <60km and don't rely on the Dramiel's tracking. It is very similar to a Taranis, while having none of the 'Ranis weaknesses. And it is very difficult to kill a dramiel (bearing in mind you need to be able to stop it from leaving, while at the same time being able to actually kill it, which is something which seems limited to bait fit ab/scram/web AFs like the Ishkur or Jaguar, and such ships die to a counterfit Dramiel with lr disruptor anyway.
In my opinion, it needs to have the drone bay nerfed or needs to have the slot layout changed so it cannot easily fit dual prop and MSE. ---
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hjgjgfgfgsj
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Posted - 2010.11.15 19:08:00 -
[5]
not supported. dont nerf the dramiel, buff the frigates that need buffing. if you nerf the dramiel, you nerf the jaguar because my jag will kill a dram any day. buff the hawk and the rest of the garbage.
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matthiastee
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Posted - 2010.11.15 19:47:00 -
[6]
if you nerf the dramiel, you nerf the jaguar because my jag will kill a dram any day. you are a ****** a dramiel would own any jag anyday and if it couldnt it would just fly away.
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matthiastee
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Posted - 2010.11.15 19:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 15/11/2010 18:52:26 The dramiel is hilariously overpowered
Edit: fix some of the currently underpowered faction ship while we're there.
worm,cruor and the subbucus all have lol dps and speed when compared to a dramiel.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.11.15 20:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon The dramiel is hilariously overpowered
Signature removed. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.11.15 21:24:00 -
[9]
Funny, my corp mate took out a dramiel with an ishkur. Funnier is i used my curse in a mock battle with my corp and made a dramiel no better than a bantam.
PS Curse is win.
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Laty
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Posted - 2010.11.15 21:54:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Laty on 15/11/2010 22:00:14
Originally by: Eclampsia It would be logical to cut the dramiel speed in 10-15%
Dramiel faster than the fastest interceptors, while still having good fitting solutions, has good DPS like assauls ships.
IMHO it is to much for one ship.
think it must be 20% strip claw with mwd 4000m/s strip dramiel with mwd 5000m/s
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.11.15 22:02:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk Funny, my corp mate took out a dramiel with an ishkur. Funnier is i used my curse in a mock battle with my corp and made a dramiel no better than a bantam.
PS Curse is win.
An Ishkur or a Jaguar can kill a Dramiel with an AB/Scram/Web fit, as I mentioned above (Assuming the Dramiel is in the Bread&Butter Dual prop fit, if the Dramiel has ab/scram/web/mse he is able to run, although has to do it a bit earlier than he otherwise would) However, it doesn't mean the Dramiel is not overpowered, the fact that it can go toe to toe with assault ships, while also being faster and more agile than Interceptors, with more escape options is what makes it overpowered.
Also claiming that your Curse shuts one down is irrelevent as a Curse equally shuts down every other frigate in the game and additionally is not related to the Dramiel, since it is not a frigate, and therefore not really an argument to this proposal. ---
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Daymio
TYTANIA Inc
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:45:00 -
[12]
Nerf Dramiel! Cut off dronebay, medslot, decrease speed, CPU, PG. It will be more honest by aligning with other faction frigates.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:54:00 -
[13]
Here you go, balance fractions until the cows come home http://www.mathplayground.com/Scale_Fractions.html
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:55:00 -
[14]
It is a mark of imbalance that all the faction ships with serious usage in PvP (as judged by the QEN3) are Angel Cartel ships. Drams have every single good thing that a frigate can have (besides a bomb launcher). No other ship of its class even comes close to competing with it, except the Daredevil, which is essentially a Dramiel killer that can't catch a Dramiel in the first place.
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Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.16 07:24:00 -
[15]
+1
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2010.11.16 07:59:00 -
[16]
Supported.
All the Angel ships really needed to be looked at twice before release. Amazing that CCP can have the forethought to release some ships as pre-nerfed to hell and back, and yet somehow completely overlook these.
Taxman IX: Risky Venture
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.11.16 08:38:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 16/11/2010 08:39:04 Supported, I would say either slow it down or take its ability to fit dual prop/mse with an mapc fitted.
Either that or bring the others to its level.
The dramiel although very overpowered at the moment doesnt need to have alot done to bring it back in line, certainly doesnt need to be sledge hammered by ccp which is what will happen inevitably
Edit. cheers for suggesting a fix that wouldnt kill the ship off as something different to fly, dont want it going back to the days of having a turret bonus and more missile slots than turrets
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.11.16 09:48:00 -
[18]
Remove the drone bay and increase mass by 10%.
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Syreon 5I4
Ytko Blueprint
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Posted - 2010.11.16 10:50:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Syreon 5I4 on 16/11/2010 10:52:22 Pick up one med slot and reduce the speed. It'll be ok
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Fail Fit
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Posted - 2010.11.16 15:35:00 -
[20]
Since CCP messed up and kept billing me keeping this account active, I shall bless the forums with my opinions on such things in the assembly hall starting with this thread.
/not supported
Why? Because if a hauler can kill a Dramiel, then it is not OP. I do not have hard stats and numbers to throw at you to support that. Just simply, lol at haulers killing FOTM faction frigates.
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matthiastee
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Posted - 2010.11.16 16:37:00 -
[21]
so you think that just because some noob was in a dramiel and got killed by a badger its not overpowered? ive seen an omen take down a harbinger doesnt mean the harbinger sucks just means he was ****ing noob you ****** or that the omen pilot was like 100m sp.
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hjgjgfgfgsj
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Posted - 2010.11.16 18:46:00 -
[22]
Fail Fit is dumb. The dramiel is overpowered, COMPARED TO OTHER FRIGATES (besides the jaguar/ishkur/vengeance) meaning that, truly, the other frigates are the ones that are UNDERPOWERED. Cruor? Sucubus? Worm? Pfft **** ships compared. You need to buff them. Don't make the dramiel a piece of crap like the rest of them it is perfect as it is. You need to bring the others up to par.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.16 18:56:00 -
[23]
At issue is the weakness of the other faction ships. I assume (hope) that Sansha ships are going to be fixed in this upcoming release, as they are often sub-T2 in function. Blood raiders ships are also lacking compared to T2 (Ashimmu v Curse for instance). Gurista ships are fairly good, but could still use a small boost. Angels are the only ones that really scale up from their comparable T2 ship (Cynabal v Vagabond for instance).
Don't nerf the Dram, just fix the other pirate faction ships.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.11.17 03:17:00 -
[24]
not supported got owned by one no need to nerf.
there are plenty of counters for dramiels
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Fai Ni
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Posted - 2010.11.17 22:10:00 -
[25]
"there are plenty of counters for dramiels"
What kind of frigsize counters for dramiels do you know? In lowsec and in 00 space plz/ Because some usable in low not usable in 00 |
Techis Trade
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Posted - 2010.11.17 22:16:00 -
[26]
Or will change Dramiel dronbay from 15 to 0. |
King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.11.17 22:44:00 -
[27]
Edited by: King Rothgar on 17/11/2010 22:44:24 The Dramiel needs a small nerf but only a small one. It needs it's drone bay removed, falloff bonus removed or speed cut by 10-15%. Pick one and only one. Some of the other faction ships are fine, some are not. The ashimmu, bhaalgorn, and entire serpentis/angel lines are wonderful ships. I wouldn't touch either as they represent exactly what the pirate faction ships should be. However the cruor and pretty much the entire sansha line need some love.
The phantasm, for example, is a pure dps ship and yet it does less dps than the HAC's it's supposed to be superior to. It needs a nice 50-75% damage boost over what it currently has. If it gets that, then suddenly it's a very appealing faction cruiser. As such, I would remove it's tracking bonus in favor of a double damage bonus. I would also add an additional turret to it (+2 effective turrets due to role bonus).
The cruor suffers from silly bonuses. Neuting bonuses are of no use on a frigate hull but the web bonus is great for a frigate. As such I suggest dropping the neut bonus in favor of a web range bonus. This would give it both a strength and range bonus to webs, a very powerful combo.
I can't comment on guristas ships much but they seem to be very popular, so my guess is they are fine. As for those who think the ashimmu is crap, it's not crap, just different. It is not in direct competition with the pilgrim or the curse. It's a totally different beast and one that I like a lot. You could boost it's base speed/agility/HP and I wouldn't complain but it's bonuses are exceptionally powerful in the right hands. I wouldn't dare trade the web/neut amount bonus for a neut range bonus. Nor would I trade one of them for a web range bonus. I have a cynabal, dramiel, bhaalgorn and tons of other shiny ships and yet I've run around in an ashimmu almost exclusively for the past month. That says something.
Edit: Forgot to support.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Fai Ni
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Posted - 2010.11.18 17:25:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Fai Ni on 18/11/2010 17:26:12 I think that cut the speed by 10% and reduce drons from 3 to 2 will be enough
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.18 21:07:00 -
[29]
it bascially rules in FW. . . and many people don't bother trying to fight one. -----------
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.11.18 21:44:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/11/2010 21:45:41
Originally by: Fai Ni
What kind of frigsize counters for dramiels do you know?
Daredevil? You know, the frigate that trumps every single frigate out there (as in, blasting them to smitherines instead of running away from them)?
/not supported
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Jada Maroo
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Posted - 2010.11.18 21:45:00 -
[31]
Confirming everyone in support of this idea has had a Dramiel touch their weewee.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.11.18 22:59:00 -
[32]
I'm not supporting this, but on a technicality.
What we need is not dramiel balance, but universal balance. I want to see a large scale attempt at rebalancing every ship in the Eve universe. The problem is, this would be an enormous job, and the question would primarily be "where the hell do we start".
Think bigger. -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice. |
Astroka
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Posted - 2010.11.19 02:54:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Black Dranzer ...the question would primarily be "where the hell do we start".
Going by this thread, with the Dramiel.
====================================== "Rawr" means "I love you" in dinosaur! ====================================== |
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.11.19 12:09:00 -
[34]
Actually, I think the majority of the current combat frigates are balanced and working fine. The majority of the Interceptors are balanced (particularly the combat turret based ones) and only Caldari is really lacking here with the Raptor, Crow isn't exactly great either but the rocket buff will likely solve it's problems for the most part. I'd say the pirate frigs are fairly balanced too (except the Dramiel), rifter, incursus, merlin, tristan, punisher, kestrel are all solid and perform well.
---
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Vrat Briner
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Posted - 2010.11.20 11:03:00 -
[35]
/support
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shelmimo
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Posted - 2010.11.21 17:30:00 -
[36]
support
dramiel - unbalanced ship in frigsize
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.11.21 22:09:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Black Dranzer I'm not supporting this, but on a technicality.
What we need is not dramiel balance, but universal balance. I want to see a large scale attempt at rebalancing every ship in the Eve universe. The problem is, this would be an enormous job, and the question would primarily be "where the hell do we start".
Think bigger.
I totally f****** agreed with that there should be one whole expansion for rebalancing every singe thing in eve yep THING not just ships just everything.(oh and so all the employees have something to work on they can redo the ship models =) )
as that is probably never gonna happen I support this instead
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Zaboth Garadath
Ore Extraction Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.21 23:37:00 -
[38]
Dramiels are overpowered.
Simply, the more overpowered something is, the more people will fly it than others in its class.
Thats why you see so many dramiels, machariels, vagabonds, drakes, etc.
/supported _____________________________________________
'If you really want to make someone hate you, explain to them, logically and politely, why they are wrong' - J. Baylock |
KanpaJl
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Posted - 2010.11.22 08:20:00 -
[39]
/supported
flights on the dramiel is too boring. make it harder.
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DarkAegix
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Posted - 2010.11.22 11:39:00 -
[40]
I hate the look of Dramiels too
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Vicomte de'Bragelonne
Tungus Revolt
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Posted - 2010.11.23 19:58:00 -
[41]
It's too boring to have one frig-sized ship that can pwn every other frig.
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Thyme Wasted
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Posted - 2010.11.23 20:45:00 -
[42]
Not supported.
Don't they cost substantially more than any other frig out there? Market equalizes all things. If a Curse can kill a dram and cost less, then the dram is balanced in the context of the game as a whole.
The other frigs just need boosting to match.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.11.23 20:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Fai Ni What kind of frigsize counters for dramiels do you know?
Daredevil? You know, the frigate that trumps every single frigate out there (as in, blasting them to smitherines instead of running away from them)?
No dram pilot in their right minds would be caught within web range of a Daredevil. Also, when one ship can only be countered by a single, expensive ship in its own ship class, there's still a problem.
Personally, I say take out the drone bay or drop a mid. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Fai Ni
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Posted - 2010.11.25 08:02:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Thyme Wasted Not supported.
Don't they cost substantially more than any other frig out there? Market equalizes all things. If a Curse can kill a dram and cost less, then the dram is balanced in the context of the game as a whole.
The other frigs just need boosting to match.
70kk - it is not a price for the best ship in class. also a Daredevil cost is about 300kk in good fit, but Daredevil is not so powerfull |
Gallion
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:19:00 -
[45]
No. these changes are unnecessary.
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Caspardian
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 15/11/2010 18:52:26 The dramiel is hilariously overpowered
Edit: fix some of the currently underpowered faction ship while we're there.
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Manji Lee
Gallente First Flying Wing Inc ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.11.25 17:21:00 -
[47]
I say it fine as is. Peeps needs to learn how to fit a ship better when dealing with frig' hulls. - Got any tinfoil? |
Eclampsia
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Posted - 2010.12.01 09:25:00 -
[48]
what CSM think about this idea?
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lookitdisalt
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Posted - 2010.12.01 10:05:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
The dramiel is hilariously overpowered
Edit: fix some of the currently underpowered faction ship while we're there.
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JesDarkJewel
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Posted - 2010.12.06 08:35:00 -
[50]
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.06 13:07:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Don Pellegrino on 06/12/2010 13:08:32 Dual prop, decent tank, 3 drones, a neut, decent dps and ludicrous speed.
That's just too much for a single ship. Remove 2 from the list above. My personal suggestion is to make the dramiel much harder to fit, forcing people to choose between tank (MSE) and dual prop, for example. 1 or 2 drones would be enough and reduce the dps a bit, making the dramiel a very fast ship with cruor/succubus dps without the tank and bonused ewar.
At the moment, the dramiel makes 90% of the frigate lineup obsolete.
edit:typo ____________________________________________
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.06 13:56:00 -
[52]
Speed is not what is wrong with the Dramiel. Having a roadrunner with a gatling gun and 50cm armor plating is.
Keep it as is but give it a significant drawback in the same vein as all the other have. - My suggestion is to cut its capacitor in half and remove 5m3 of bandwidth.
Originally by: Omara Otawan Daredevil? You know, the frigate that trumps every single frigate out there (as in, blasting them to smitherines instead of running away from them)?
So your idea of a balanced ship is if there is another that is able to beat, even though that one other ship costs 2-3 times as much in "base" configuration (more expensive hull + faction web)? |
Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:21:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Speed is not what is wrong with the Dramiel. Having a roadrunner with a gatling gun and 50cm armor plating is.
Keep it as is but give it a significant drawback in the same vein as all the other have. - My suggestion is to cut its capacitor in half and remove 5m3 of bandwidth.
Originally by: Omara Otawan Daredevil? You know, the frigate that trumps every single frigate out there (as in, blasting them to smitherines instead of running away from them)?
So your idea of a balanced ship is if there is another that is able to beat, even though that one other ship costs 2-3 times as much in "base" configuration (more expensive hull + faction web)?
I think cutting the cap in half is a little extreme, its meant to be an interceptor but unfortunately its also and assault frigate at the same time, Personally if its going to get scaled back id say make it a little like a faster taranis, not a faster taranis with a jaguar-like tank
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Mana Sanqua
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Posted - 2010.12.06 19:40:00 -
[54]
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.06 21:34:00 -
[55]
Dramiel is fun to fly - people often forget that fact when they try to modify the game (remember games are played for fun)
There's no denying that Dramiel is the most powerful frigate out there, by far. And we want to balance the game a little. That can be achieved without nerfing the fun factor of Dramiel - simply adjust the base costs of making one. Double the current cost. That would make other frigates much more competitive, as well as provide increased joy factor to those who manage to kill one.
The game should cater to elite players at least a little, otherwise it's all pointless grind.
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LordElfa
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Posted - 2010.12.06 21:35:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jada Maroo Confirming everyone in support of this idea has had a Dramiel touch their weewee.
Agreed.
/not supported
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:01:00 -
[57]
I fly the Dramiel, it is over powered. The only reasons to fly a frig that is not a Dramiel is because you know you will be suicide tackling, or you are in a covert ops.
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LordElfa
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:18:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hesperius I fly the Dramiel, it is over powered. The only reasons to fly a frig that is not a Dramiel is because you know you will be suicide tackling, or you are in a covert ops.
Are you saying that you want your 70,000,000 isk frig to be nerfed?
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:41:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Thyme Wasted Not supported.
Don't they cost substantially more than any other frig out there? Market equalizes all things. If a Curse can kill a dram and cost less, then the dram is balanced in the context of the game as a whole.
The other frigs just need boosting to match.
Using price as the only balancing factor is ******ed, my Utu costs 30 billion, should I be able to solo Super Carriers in it? Obviously not. A Curse can kill every single frigate in the game with ease, it is not a viable point, besides, the Cruor costs more than a Dramiel and will likely die to one.
Originally by: Manji Lee I say it fine as is. Peeps needs to learn how to fit a ship better when dealing with frig' hulls.
It is not fine as it is. The problem with the Dramiel is not that "people can't counter frigate huls" It is that it completely dominates the Frigate PVP Meta-Game. A Dramiel can run from or destroy every frigate in the game except for a few 'bait' setups like ab/scram/web Ishkur/Jaguar (which are incredibly difficult to use in 0.0 because of lack of mwd).
Originally by: Ephemeron Dramiel is fun to fly - people often forget that fact when they try to modify the game (remember games are played for fun)
There's no denying that Dramiel is the most powerful frigate out there, by far. And we want to balance the game a little. That can be achieved without nerfing the fun factor of Dramiel - simply adjust the base costs of making one. Double the current cost. That would make other frigates much more competitive, as well as provide increased joy factor to those who manage to kill one.
The game should cater to elite players at least a little, otherwise it's all pointless grind.
The Dramiel doesn't cost anything to make (about 300k in minerals at jita prices), the reason why they cost 70mil is because of demand/supply (The blueprint drops from Domination rats and Angel plexes). So to dramatically increase the price you would have to toy with loot tables. I don't think making it more expensive would make it any less prevelant as it is now though, it simply sets the bar higher for people who want to fight on par with Dramiels. They will still be flown and still dominate frigate combat. I don't think having a frigate which dominates everything else is 'elite', I think it is the opposite, since it is the 'easy mode' frigate. I don't understand how eve is more or any less of a "grind" by making the Dramiel more in line. ---
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LordElfa
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:51:00 -
[60]
Your Utu cost 30 bil because of it's rarity, not demand.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.06 23:04:00 -
[61]
Quote: The Dramiel doesn't cost anything to make (about 300k in minerals at jita prices), the reason why they cost 70mil is because of demand/supply (The blueprint drops from Domination rats and Angel plexes). So to dramatically increase the price you would have to toy with loot tables. I don't think making it more expensive would make it any less prevelant as it is now though, it simply sets the bar higher for people who want to fight on par with Dramiels. They will still be flown and still dominate frigate combat. I don't think having a frigate which dominates everything else is 'elite', I think it is the opposite, since it is the 'easy mode' frigate. I don't understand how eve is more or any less of a "grind" by making the Dramiel more in line.
I am aware of how the market works. In this case I recommend reducing drop rates of the Dramiel Blueprint by half and increasing it's base cost from pirate NPC agents by 2x.
I am absolutely certain that price of an item has significant effect on its usage in PvP. For a case study, I suggest you look at history of rigs, before and after CCP decided to split them into 'large', 'medium', 'small' - and thus reduce rigging costs for sub-battleship by about 10x More specifically, look at history of Drake's popularity and its perceived superiority over that history period. Careful examination should show that Drakes became noticeably better after costs of fitting 3x shield extender rigs dropped from 60 mil to 10 mil. It even led to people starting to whine about it being overpowered.
As it is now, the cost of Dramiel is simply too cheap considering the power it provides. Much like the situation with medium shield rigs. While costs alone can't have significant changes to game balance, they are a fine tool for making surgical adjustment to overall game balance. Not the sledge hammer approach that CCP favors - completely destroying parts of the game as knee jerk reaction to popular whines.
Dramiel should not suffer the sledge hammer fate.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari Technomage Trilogy Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: LordElfa
Originally by: Hesperius I fly the Dramiel, it is over powered. The only reasons to fly a frig that is not a Dramiel is because you know you will be suicide tackling, or you are in a covert ops.
Are you saying that you want your 70,000,000 isk frig to be nerfed?
Believe it or not, some people actually care more about game balance then their own personal benefit.
It happens. I know, it's a shock. But it happens. -More Pewpew, Less QQ- |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:34:00 -
[63]
Ragnarok/Leviathan can kill dramiel. So clearly dramiel doesnt need nerf. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.07 12:01:00 -
[64]
Originally by: LordElfa Your Utu cost 30 bil because of it's rarity, not demand.
It costs 30b because of demand actually. It costs that much since there is only 48 of them ingame, therefore supply is incredibly limited and exclusive.
Regardless, I was using the point that price shouldn't be the only balancing factor... look at the old Titans prior to REV2. ---
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.07 12:28:00 -
[65]
The vast majority of BPCs are not from drops, the loot tables are *******sed bad enough for that not to be true (now that the dropped BPOs have been removed ).
LP store from the Angel agents is where it's at .. balance all the pirate agents if you want to solve that part of the equation. There is absolutely no reason for one faction to have more/better agents than another.
Hell, have a couple of Devs sit down with the content crew and move agents around and/or change gate connections to make running pirate missions less of a "Tralalala" all the way to the bank.
Might even make the alternative faction ships more attractive thus diluting the Angel presence in space.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.07 19:42:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The vast majority of BPCs are not from drops, the loot tables are *******sed bad enough for that not to be true (now that the dropped BPOs have been removed ).
LP store from the Angel agents is where it's at .. balance all the pirate agents if you want to solve that part of the equation. There is absolutely no reason for one faction to have more/better agents than another.
Hell, have a couple of Devs sit down with the content crew and move agents around and/or change gate connections to make running pirate missions less of a "Tralalala" all the way to the bank.
Might even make the alternative faction ships more attractive thus diluting the Angel presence in space.
You got a point there. In my experience BPCs drop very rarely from NPC hunting. Pirate lp store is where it's at.
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Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.12.08 05:22:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The vast majority of BPCs are not from drops, the loot tables are *******sed bad enough for that not to be true (now that the dropped BPOs have been removed ).
LP store from the Angel agents is where it's at .. balance all the pirate agents if you want to solve that part of the equation. There is absolutely no reason for one faction to have more/better agents than another.
Hell, have a couple of Devs sit down with the content crew and move agents around and/or change gate connections to make running pirate missions less of a "Tralalala" all the way to the bank.
Might even make the alternative faction ships more attractive thus diluting the Angel presence in space.
hmmm maybe you want to nerf daredavil pricing too, and other 0.0 agents all over.. or even better maybe nerf high sec lvl4 missions because they pay too much for no risk.
btw, on dramiel nerf not supported, plenty of counters in game to kill dramiels
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.08 07:27:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Miss President hmmm maybe you want to nerf daredavil pricing too, and other 0.0 agents all over.. or even better maybe nerf high sec lvl4 missions because they pay too much for no risk...
Huh? Reading deficient I presume, so I'll elaborate.
Location of agents working for Angels are more easily mission spammable (agent clusters). Angels currently have 3+ times the number of Blood Raiders agents, 2+ times that of Serpentis and 3+ times that of Guristas .. the only other faction that is even close is Sansha, but anyone familiar with Eve history knows the reason for that (RP was huge in Eve once upon a time, go figure).
Can you give me a rational reason for such HUGE discrepancies? Even them out either by increasing other factions or decreasing Angels and prices of the various faction hulls will equalize somewhat thus making the choice of an Angel over any other less of a given.
Clear enough?
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Soldarius
Independent Coalition DEM0N HUNTERS
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Posted - 2010.12.08 07:56:00 -
[69]
Dramiel is OP for whatever reason. double damage bonus, drone bay, ludicrous speed...
I order you to stop!
If daredevils are the counter of the dramiel, why aren't they all over the place, even with the triple damage bonus? Because they are more balanced. Fikz it.
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed."
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Maylin Li
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.08 11:19:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Maylin Li on 08/12/2010 11:18:42
Originally by: Soldarius Dramiel is OP for whatever reason. double damage bonus, drone bay, ludicrous speed...
I order you to stop!
If daredevils are the counter of the dramiel, why aren't they all over the place, even with the triple damage bonus? Because they are more balanced. Fikz it.
Because Daredevils actually have a good chance of dying when they commit to scram range (No dual prop, slower, vulnerable to neuts, much less range, no drone bay, no damage outside web range) where as Dramiel is easy mode get out with more EHP and can beat most daredevils by starting the fight at 7-8km or so, takes the DD about 8 seconds to get into range even with ab/scram/web, more if it actually has a mwd fit, and by that time it has taken too much damage.
TL;DR Daredevils have a difficult time un-commiting from a fight, Dramiel does not.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.12.08 11:24:00 -
[71]
/Supported
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2010.12.08 15:02:00 -
[72]
Dramiel doesn't need a nerf.
MAYBE reduce the speed a little bit or something but that's it.
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:03:00 -
[73]
You know, if they changed MWDs to be less agile, the Dram wouldn't "need" a nerf.
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Maylin Li
Caldari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:47:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Corina Jarr You know, if they changed MWDs to be less agile, the Dram wouldn't "need" a nerf.
Increasing the mass on MWDs to nerf the Dramiel (and in doing so, nerf every other ship that fits one, end result, dramiel still OP) to Spite the Dramiel is stupid. The problem isn't so much the Dramiels agility - although that is a small problem in itself since nothing can really catch a Dramiel in Empire space save from ******ed sensor booster fits.
The problem, as outlined in this thread.
- It can do as much DPS as most damage orientated Interceptors - It has about 1.5x to 2x the EHP as most combat orientated Interceptors - It is significantly faster and more agile than damage orientated Interceptors - It can fit a dual prop while maintaining this EHP advantage (4 slots) - It has a lot of tracking/range independent DPS (Drones) - It can kite easily in scram range, and has a falloff bonus with Autocannons so can do decent damage to the edge of this range. - It also gets a utility small energy neutraliser, and plenty of cap to run it with ab/scram
The counters to the Dramiel (Ab/Scram/Web fits) need to have similar DPS output and EHP to the Dramiel in order to actually kill it. This pretty much leaves the Ishkur/Jaguar/Daredevil as the effective counters, fitted in ab/scram/web fits they are incredibly vulnerable to other ships in gate camps and in PVP, The Dramiel has the option to entirely ignore them too. They also have much less options to escape than the Dramiel.
The Dramiel simply does everything while having none of the weaknesses that the similar ships and counters to it face. The Speed/Agility on it means that it cannot hardly ever be forced into an engagement in lowsec space, and in 0.0 save from mass sensor booster recon/hac camps it is safe.
So yes, it needs a nerf, I don't know where to nerf it, but personally, I think it either needs a mid swapped for a low, the drone bay removed, or the agility/speed toned down to firetail/rifter level. Right now it does too much damage, with too much effective hitpoints, with too speed. It's ok for it to do 2 of those things, but not all of them while being able to fit dual prop and mse.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:51:00 -
[75]
EVE needs elite ships, not just on supercap level.
It's the most powerful frig, and it should be rare and expensive. It shouldn't be only fun to fly, it should also be fun to kill. And people always have a lot of fun when they kill something really expensive - that's why people wet their pants every time they score a mothership or titan kill.
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Fistme
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:55:00 -
[76]
Why the ship has 15m3 dronebay is beyond me... Good dmg, best speed, capless weapons, good ehp and a very large drone bay for a frigate.... Clearly OP, anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron, nuff said. Stop circle jerking to 514 cpp, lets fix simple balance issues instead of making console exclusive drivel that will be rolled by the next halo or COD clone.
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Marak Mocam
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Posted - 2010.12.09 01:37:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote: The Dramiel doesn't cost anything to make (about 300k in minerals at jita prices), the reason why they cost 70mil is because of demand/supply (The blueprint drops from Domination rats and Angel plexes). So to dramatically increase the price you would have to toy with loot tables. I don't think making it more expensive would make it any less prevelant as it is now though, it simply sets the bar higher for people who want to fight on par with Dramiels. They will still be flown and still dominate frigate combat. I don't think having a frigate which dominates everything else is 'elite', I think it is the opposite, since it is the 'easy mode' frigate. I don't understand how eve is more or any less of a "grind" by making the Dramiel more in line.
I am aware of how the market works. In this case I recommend reducing drop rates of the Dramiel Blueprint by half and increasing it's base cost from pirate NPC agents by 2x.
I am absolutely certain that price of an item has significant effect on its usage in PvP. For a case study, I suggest you look at history of rigs, before and after CCP decided to split them into 'large', 'medium', 'small' - and thus reduce rigging costs for sub-battleship by about 10x More specifically, look at history of Drake's popularity and its perceived superiority over that history period. Careful examination should show that Drakes became noticeably better after costs of fitting 3x shield extender rigs dropped from 60 mil to 10 mil. It even led to people starting to whine about it being overpowered.
As it is now, the cost of Dramiel is simply too cheap considering the power it provides. Much like the situation with medium shield rigs. While costs alone can't have significant changes to game balance, they are a fine tool for making surgical adjustment to overall game balance. Not the sledge hammer approach that CCP favors - completely destroying parts of the game as knee jerk reaction to popular whines.
Dramiel should not suffer the sledge hammer fate.
You do make a good point.
If the Dram went up in costs significantly, it's popularity would suffer. The cost-performance ratio comes into discussion on many fits and usage discussions -- clearly officer equipment is superior but you don't find much respect for sub-capital ships that show these in use for PvP...
A price increase, due to rarity and manufacturing costs, might address the dram better than a nerf. "Too expensive..." is a common no-go statement for ships in PvP.
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Nauplius
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2010.12.09 03:36:00 -
[78]
Supported.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2010.12.10 06:00:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 10/12/2010 06:01:08 Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 10/12/2010 06:00:32
Originally by: Ephemeron EVE needs elite ships, not just on supercap level.
It's the most powerful frig, and it should be rare and expensive. It shouldn't be only fun to fly, it should also be fun to kill. And people always have a lot of fun when they kill something really expensive - that's why people wet their pants every time they score a mothership or titan kill.
QFT
Regardless, the damn thing is to be fixed by stat shifting, not the price. Else one may wonder - why exactly Angel ships are to be that special with their doubled (or w/e) price you suggest. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
KOLBASOID
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Posted - 2010.12.14 05:30:00 -
[80]
/support
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Shaera Taam
Minmatar Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.26 09:31:00 -
[81]
/me does not support
i'm not the first to say it, but i will happily re-iterate the right (not the easiest) thing to do: buff and balance all the other faction frigs!
if the dram has a special place in CCP's heart and is destined to be the 'best' frig out there, that's fine... but lets see if we can get the other faction frigs a bit more polish, so maybe they can fight their way out of the dram's shadow?
/me would support *that* __________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
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Posted - 2010.12.26 10:36:00 -
[82]
I hate when I get in my fractional frigate, the Dramiel, only the find that part of it is always missing! WTH
You can't balance a faction ship by artificially reducing the cost of a specific hull, you would have to adjust the prices of the entire pirate faction frigate linup. If you tampered with the LP costs of BPCs and the loot tables to make all the faction ships more expensive, the most popular of them would still cost the most.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2010.12.26 14:47:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Dorian Tormak on 26/12/2010 14:51:49 **** nerfing the dramiel...
Every one of those I've engaged in my Jag I have beaten...
It is only as good a frig as the Cynabal is a cruiser.
It's good at running away from the best frigs and that's it, sure that makes it good for solo but goddamn that doesn't mean it needs a nerf.
The reason it's so popular is the same reason the rifter is so popular - all the people who suck start shouting "hey this ship is best for solo its better than any other frig use it for solo!!" and all the ******s who follow FOTM **** will use it. And after that anyone you ask which is best will yell out that ship. Then you go why? and they go BECAUSE OF BARRAGE or some other bull****.
Not that I actually care... go ahead and nerf it itll just make them easier to kill before their friends show up.
EDIT - MAYBE get rid of the drone bay, that's probably what gives it that edge people see.
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2010.12.26 19:39:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Dibsi Dei on 26/12/2010 19:39:21 Massively supported.
-1 medium slot would balance the ship with other faction frigates while not making it just another firetail.
Also of course an assault frigate would beat dramiel or any other t1 frigate, that's what they are for.
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2010.12.26 19:47:00 -
[85]
The sooner people like you figure out that faction ships aren't T1 the better, and the sooner you realize that if I flew a dramiel it would wreck a jaguar every time the better.
The Dramiel IS better than the jag but not by much, it's just that the idiots who fly it suck ****.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.12.28 09:26:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 28/12/2010 09:29:26 Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 28/12/2010 09:28:55 Frigate with a cruiser-sized dronebay (imagine how BIG will be 3 attack-ready drones) and signature which is 7 points bigger than a shuttle!? C'mon. I don't know what kind of weed devs smoked creating such ship, but it's totally a nano-cruiser, not the frigate. I see three ways to deal with it's OPness: 1. Remove dronebay. That's illogical to give dronebay with approx. 75-p signature drones in it to a 32-p signature frigate. Or, at least, double it's signature. 2. Nerf it's scan resolution. (990, GODDAMIT, it can lock on anything in 1-2 seconds.) 3. Nerf it's speed. Even dualweb sometimes fail to stop it.
It have too much bonuses for a one ship.
Oh, also make it cost 1 billion. If ppl want such ship with this bonuses they should pay it's real price.
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Intar Medris
Amarr EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
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Posted - 2010.12.28 09:58:00 -
[87]
Well I meet a dramiel with my BS once. Damn thing is almost as strong as a cruiser. What ever happened to not anyone ship being overpower I Make Forums For Corps And Alliances. 50 Mil ISK See Example Forum To Get A Idea of What Your's Could Look Like Example Forum |
Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.28 10:49:00 -
[88]
Hi.
Faction frigates are supposed to be a combination of an assault ship and interceptor. Say 60% assault ship and 40% interceptor or 20% assault ship and 80% interceptor.
Unfortunately the Dramiel is 85% assault ship and 120% interceptor.
Oh well, let the debate continue.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.28 11:12:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The vast majority of BPCs are not from drops, the loot tables are *******sed bad enough for that not to be true (now that the dropped BPOs have been removed ).
I'd not be so sure about that. I got 7 Dramiel BPCs from running the same 2/10 about 30 times in 5 days. Sometimes it'd not drop anything, but I also got a truckload of gistii MWDs and small boosters.
It does take about 5 minutes to run that plex in an AF, and then about 1,5 hours waiting for respawn.
Some of the locals seem to farm it 23/7.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.12.28 11:31:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 28/12/2010 09:29:26 Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 28/12/2010 09:28:55 Frigate with a cruiser-sized dronebay (imagine how BIG will be 3 attack-ready drones) and signature which is 7 points bigger than a shuttle!? C'mon. I don't know what kind of weed devs smoked creating such ship, but it's totally a nano-cruiser, not the frigate. I see three ways to deal with it's OPness: 1. Remove dronebay. That's illogical to give dronebay with approx. 75-p signature drones in it to a 32-p signature frigate. Or, at least, double it's signature. 2. Nerf it's scan resolution. (990, GODDAMIT, it can lock on anything in 1-2 seconds.) 3. Nerf it's speed. Even dualweb sometimes fail to stop it.
It have too much bonuses for a one ship.
Oh, also make it cost 1 billion. If ppl want such ship with this bonuses they should pay it's real price.
I do hope this is sarcasm
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Ephemeron
The Dirty Dozen
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Posted - 2010.12.28 19:10:00 -
[91]
making it cost around 150 mil solves the problem without nerfing the fun
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Reaver Glitterstim
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Posted - 2010.12.28 20:05:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Fistme Why the ship has 15m3 dronebay is beyond me... Good dmg, best speed, capless weapons, good ehp and a very large drone bay for a frigate.... Clearly OP, anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron, nuff said. Stop circle jerking to 514 cpp, lets fix simple balance issues instead of making console exclusive drivel that will be rolled by the next halo or COD clone.
This is EVE Online, not some other game out there. In case you haven't noticed, EVE is all about risk vs. reward. If the Dramiel cost 750,000 ISK from your local production facility, then it would be overpowered. But there's not enough people willing to pay 75 million ISK for a frigate hull that can get popped just as easily as the next one without inflicting some casualties first. I don't know about you, but personally I never understood why there's so many people in other games willing to pay tons of money for insignificant upgrades. Maybe it's because in those games you can be assured you'll never lose it.
The Dramiel also makes a good platform for ultra-expensive frigate modules. Good rule of thumb is not to put expensive stuff on cheap crap, or you might as well haul it out to Jita and jettison it.
All in all, the Dramiel makes a good ISK sink. If it's more powerful than other faction frigates, then talk about that. But being powerful because it's a faction frigate goes without saying because it's expensive.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.28 20:28:00 -
[93]
obviously
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.28 23:02:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Omara Otawan I'd not be so sure about that. I got 7 Dramiel BPCs from running the same 2/10 about 30 times in 5 days. Sometimes it'd not drop anything, but I also got a truckload of gistii MWDs and small boosters...
If true then that is a good place to start, although at 1.5hr respawn you are looking at 16 maximum per day if loot-gods are on crack. Unless there loads of those plexes around then they are can not be the main source.
Originally by: Ephemeron making it cost around 150 mil solves the problem without nerfing the fun
Massive overkill. It just needs a 30% price hike to be in line with the rest of the frigates (~100-110M).
Equalize the agents for factions and it sorts itself out. Given a choice between the Daredevil and the Dramiel, I think most "real" PvP'ers will opt for the former if it wasn't for the bargain priced Dramiel.
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.28 23:20:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Ephemeron making it cost around 150 mil solves the problem without nerfing the fun
This won't fix the problem, it only escalates it. Since the only reasonable counter to the Dramiel, is the Dramiel (Go have a look at how Dramiels have completely changed factional warfare minor plexes), without rolling some fairly vulnerable AB/Scram/Web setup on an AF. It means that less people are able to counter them, 7km/s Sacrileges and Ishtars costed 3-4 billion, and look how they ended up. ---
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Ephemeron
The Dirty Dozen
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Posted - 2010.12.28 23:29:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Suitonia
Originally by: Ephemeron making it cost around 150 mil solves the problem without nerfing the fun
This won't fix the problem, it only escalates it. Since the only reasonable counter to the Dramiel, is the Dramiel (Go have a look at how Dramiels have completely changed factional warfare minor plexes), without rolling some fairly vulnerable AB/Scram/Web setup on an AF. It means that less people are able to counter them, 7km/s Sacrileges and Ishtars costed 3-4 billion, and look how they ended up.
I killed 2 Dramiels in 1 week. And another Dramiel 2 weeks ago. I was using sniper Loki
I am against nerfing Dramiel performance because I know it's possible to kill one in anything but solo frigate - once you get it tackled. Of course, getting that initial tackle is the most difficult part. But that's where the fun is - killing an expensive and difficult ship.
Unlike supercarriers, that simply cannot be killed by anything short of a mega alliance blob, this ship can be killed by a 6 month noob in a Caracal - if he is fitted properly and catches the Dram pilot on a mistake.
Of course it's difficult, and players tend to whine when they encounter something difficult. But jeez, some of us actually like the challenge. There are plenty of easy things to kill. There's no need to eliminate all the hard parts from EVE
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Train Tracks
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Posted - 2010.12.29 00:24:00 -
[97]
Nerf the dram
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eVRiAL
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Posted - 2011.01.16 13:49:00 -
[98]
Supported. Nerf
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.01.16 14:38:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Tony SoXai on 16/01/2011 14:44:12 Those people saying "make it cost more" are just total absolute turds.
Make the dramial slower (it shouldnt be faster than the fastest interceptor, the claw) and get rid of the drone bay. Am I missing something, or shouldnt the daredevil be the one with the drone bay since its gallente and the dram is minmatar? I know theyre mixed races, but hey.
Also buff the Cruor (enough PG to fit a 400 plate would be nice), succubus (dramiel gets the same shield tank). Despite what people say the worm is good as is but could use some extra PG/CPU to be able to fit a nos after the rest of the ship is fit well.
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Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.16 21:43:00 -
[100]
Quote: Those people saying "make it cost more" are just total absolute turds.
Just curious, what goes on in that little mind of yours to get to such conclusion?
I'm also curious to know whether that same logic of yours applies to supercarriers - which are very expensive and extremely overpowered when compared on 1:1 basis against all other ships in EVE.
And what if your opinion on existence of high end faction modules in PvP? clearly all such modules are overpowered and unfair
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Professor Screweyes
I.M.M -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.16 23:28:00 -
[101]
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Theronth Valarax
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Posted - 2011.01.29 16:08:00 -
[102]
I'd say drone bay should be gone and speed reduced so that it wouldnt be greater that interceptors. Also mind that after the rocket boost Hookbill is a nice counter provided it's fitted properly.
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Marche Lo
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Posted - 2011.01.29 18:50:00 -
[103]
Supported.
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Fournone
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Posted - 2011.01.31 03:25:00 -
[104]
I agree the dram is overpowered, but people get overzealouce with the nerfbat.
Instead of nerfing the heck out of the dram, lets boost its underpowered rivals (like ccp did with projectiles). More EHP/speed for the worm/cruor and we are set.
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Fai Ni
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Posted - 2011.02.02 15:08:00 -
[105]
UP! What CSM think about this topic?
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Shaera Taam
Minmatar Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.03 02:11:00 -
[106]
i agree with a small number of voices on this topic: the dram doesnt need to be nerfed.
faction gear is supposed to stand slightly above T2 in capability, and we pay accordingly... in isk when we fly faction gear, and in ships+mods when we fly against it. i personally do not have a problem with the dram's capabilities as they stand. yeah, some of them dont make a lot of physical sense (a 15m3 drone bay, on something that small? really?) but they are what they are. suspend disbelief and have fun flying it.
the rest of the faction ships, however, are a different story. CCP just recently decided to 'balance' them with specific roles in mind. ok, sure, ill buy that, no problem. CCP even kept the majority of them in line with each other's capabilities and within their specific roles. the problem is that the dram seemed to get the role of super-frig... with a good pilot, it can do damn-near everything any other frig can do, only better...
so, yeah, the easiest thing to do would be nerf the dram to the same level as the rest of the faction frigs. the harder thing to do, and imho the right thing to do, would be to boost the other faction frigs to where the dram is.
CCP, you guys raised the bar with the dram, how 'bout we bring the other ff's up to meet it?
just an idea... ST __________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Ephemeron
BeerTia Maniacs
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Posted - 2011.02.03 02:31:00 -
[107]
Shaera Taam, do you agree that Dram is too cheap for the power it provides? Considering it's the best of all faction frigs, it should cost 140 mil or so - which is still less than most faction cruisers
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Shaera Taam
Minmatar Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.03 02:46:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Ephemeron Shaera Taam, do you agree that Dram is too cheap for the power it provides?
realistically, yes, i think so. a ship with a significant advantage over the others in its class should be significantly more expensive.
but, as the caldari are fond of saying, the market is god, and the current prices have sorted themselves out for a reason. that said, should some sort of nerf/boost take place with the dram or other ff's, prices will sort themselves out again.
and no, i wouldnt mind seeing all ff prices go up by a big margin if some general ff-boost were to be implemented. i will gladly pay more for a ship that performs better, why not? __________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Njals
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Posted - 2011.02.09 09:02:00 -
[109]
Supported.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.09 09:11:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Shaera Taam ...
The problem with the "because of market" schtick is that it can only be used if all other things are equal, which they are demonstratively not .. Angel LP is considerably easier to get by and thus supply is not 'limited' as much as the alternatives.
Regardless, price is not balance, never will be and never should be.
My initial assessment still stands: Reduce fittings to a point where tank+dual prop becomes impossible without sever gimpage and it is balanced.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.02.09 15:17:00 -
[111]
What about rasing other faction frigs to the level of the Dramiel instead of nerfing this one?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.09 15:31:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Swynet What about rasing other faction frigs to the level of the Dramiel instead of nerfing this one?
All the others are actually pretty well balanced within the class and against Destroyers. If everything were brought on par with the Dramiel the entire class (20+ hulls) would need to be looked at.
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Show Info
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Posted - 2011.02.19 17:44:00 -
[113]
Support
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moonwalker56
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Posted - 2011.03.23 13:45:00 -
[114]
Edited by: moonwalker56 on 23/03/2011 13:50:42 Edited by: moonwalker56 on 23/03/2011 13:50:05 I think it мust be nerfed much more than slight speed cut. Frigate that is faster than interceptor and more powerfull than asault ship, fitted in dual prop.... it's really imbalanced. But still I support TS!
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.23 15:19:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Swynet What about rasing other faction frigs to the level of the Dramiel instead of nerfing this one?
All the others are actually pretty well balanced within the class and against Destroyers. If everything were brought on par with the Dramiel the entire class (20+ hulls) would need to be looked at.
Succubus and worm are balanced? I disagree. If we say daredevil is balanced then we need to bring the other faction ships up to it and tweak the dram down to it. But we don't need to balance the dramiel with the kestrel.
Is the dramiel price balanced versus other ships. ItÆs a bit inexpensive and it sounds like the bpcs drop too easilly. But on the whole itÆs not horribly underpriced. Its no more powerful than any tier 2 bc which you can buy 2 of for the price of single dram. And you can insure those bcs.
ItÆs not like people should be running scared in their cruisers from solo dramiels. And that dramiel loss will usually be at least 2xs harder on the wallet. As for other frigates well no you shouldnÆt be engaging a pirate frigate with a t1 ship.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.23 18:37:00 -
[116]
The problem is little more than the dramatic difference in speed between the dram and other frigate class ships. Other frigates should have more speed.
Less nerf, more boost.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Marconus Orion
Global Criminal Countdown
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Posted - 2011.03.23 18:40:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Cearain Is the dramiel price balanced versus other ships. ItÆs a bit inexpensive and it sounds like the bpcs drop too easilly.
You probably are right but because of how over powered they are, everyone is farming the **** out of any sites and LP stores that provide them. Factor in that Jita is the final answer to a market hub and you have tons of people competing with each other on the market to get their Dramiels sold. So cost to weigh in to the balance part of the ship starts to have less of an effect on it. I'm no market expert but just my opinion on the matter.
It just really would be nice if the Dramiel was not an automatic check mate against other frigates solo. I'm sure there are the rare stories out there of how a Dramiel fell to <insert random frigate class ship> but we all know that it was due in part to a lolfit and a lolpilot. Emo TJ anyone?
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massaDuk
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Posted - 2011.04.22 20:41:00 -
[118]
any news?? CCP you are heard us?? universe of cynabals and dramiels (oh wait.. +some drakes, true!)is your insidious plan??? how much the fish???
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Darth Cestuous
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Posted - 2011.04.22 21:51:00 -
[119]
This issue would be solved simply by CCP accepting the CSM's recommendation to create a continuous balancing role within their development teams. Once that exists this would be addressed making debate on it futile. So not supported to prevent diffusion of focus from continuous balancing.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.23 06:55:00 -
[120]
Edited by: LordElfa on 23/04/2011 07:04:05 Well, the fact is I payed twice the cost of a T1 BS for my Dram and fittings and I did t because the Dram is a T1 frig murder mobile. Its powerful and lightning fast, that's what makes it worth 3-4 times the cost of a T2 frig.
Nerf it and you screw the people who own them. If you think it's unfair to go up against a Dram in your Caldari rocket mobile, run away and fight something on your level, or better yet, STFU and buy one yourself.
Either way, asking CCP to make it easier for you to kill ships is crap. There are strategies for killing every kind of ship in EVE, if you aren't getting it done, look some up and fit accordingly.
Originally by: Eclampsia
It is obvious that dramiel is overpowered frigate, which has an unique position in frigsize rating.
Powerful, not overpowered, it's unique position is that it's faster than all other frigs, someone had to be.
Originally by: Eclampsia
Dramiel has a very wide range of targets and has good ability to escape from a battle. This ship has a good damage and also has a chance in many cases to leave the closefight and escape.
All, true, hence the reason it's popular. Are trying to disparage the Dram or give us good reasons to own one?
Originally by: Eclampsia
It would be logical to cut the dramiel speed in 10-15%
What?! You just said it had good damage and a good ability to escape from battle. So therefor, your logical conclusion is that it needs to suck more? I don't think logic means what you think it means.
Originally by: Eclampsia
Dramiel faster than the fastest interceptors, while still having good fitting solutions, has good DPS like assauls ships.
Yes, and the Dramiel also costs nearly twice as much as both put together, so why shouldn't it be better than both? It's not a T1 frig you know, its a faction frig. I have some faction gear thats better than T2 gear, should that be nerfed as well?
Originally by: Eclampsia
IMHO it is to much for one ship.
Humble opinion? Really? You basically just asked CCP to make a ship slower and less powerful for the reason that it currently doesn't suck as much as most T1 and T2 frigs. Humble doesn't apply here.
See, the Dramiel is special, just like the Nightmare, the Machariel, and a load of other faction ships. When you lower special to match the mundane or raise the mundane to match special, special no longer has any meaning.
Like the old saying goes, if everyone in the Universe was unique, no would be. Please don't try and turn EVE into Nascar.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.23 08:47:00 -
[121]
Originally by: LordElfa Well, the fact is...
Price as an argument at this stage?
Were it to be accepted as valid, then it would only apply if the death rate of the things was equal to the T2 hulls/T1 BS you compare it with .. which is most definitely is not. Take the other pirate hulls and run them through the same logic, they too are very expensive and very powerful but they die to the slightest slip-up and have numerous counters even in their own class.
Originally by: LordElfa ...It's not a God ship, it's just the game's fastest frigate, big woop, some frig had to be.
But 25%+ faster than interceptors (which are meant to be fast, it is in the name) while still having tank/spank?
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Joss56
Gallente Unleashed' Fury
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Posted - 2011.04.23 12:16:00 -
[122]
Nerfing something is never good for the game and surely will not make other ships issues become more easy to accept.
The Dramiel has 2 points that need a close look but not a nerf, such has it's speed and drone bay.
Instead of nerf the Dramiel wy not just give T1 hulls good speed improvements and some drone bay, T2 hulls the so demanded racial bonus and some drone bay+speed.
Would not make T2's overpowered, would not nerf pirate frigs (some need real love) and T1's little more useful, but if you ever think the good game is that a 10cts frigg can take down a 100M frigg fingers in the nose you just play the wrong game, better play PS3 with downloaded cheats on internet. ________________________________________________
"You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.23 13:15:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Joss56 ....
We already tried the nano-age, making it T1/T2 frigs only and reinstating it will not make it better as the exact same issues will arise.
Besides, makes no sense to rework 20-30 ships just to make one broken hull seem less so.
Frigate balance (T2, Navy, Pirate and higher tiers) is actually pretty damn good, apart from that one ship with no discernible downsides .. It needs vulnerabilities or be forced to make sacrifices (ie. pick one or two from speed/tank/spank but never all at once) just like practically all other hulls do.
PS: Dramiel can be killed by T1 frigates already, just requires a custom fit that is generally useless against all other things
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Sephiroth CloneVII
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Posted - 2011.04.23 21:17:00 -
[124]
guristas are junk compared to angel in general. Others have half the slots and double the damage, guitarists have half the slots and more range for missiles, ie quite useless.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.24 02:11:00 -
[125]
Edited by: LordElfa on 24/04/2011 02:14:42
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
paraphrased stuff done to make people I quote look feeble by comparison
It's also far more costly than the Interceptors and doesn't have the warp speed of some of them or the resists. You're argument is subjective, comparative and other big words I don't know the meaning of.
What I do know is that this whole nerf is being caused by nothing more than butthurt, plain and simple.
Butt hurt. Hurt butt. People who's butts have been injured. As in "OMGZORZ!!!111 teh Dramiel is 2 fast for my cheap ship, my bad skillz and my $hit fit, not fair, nerf it wid fyre!!!"
As revealed in my book, "10000 Statistics I Pulled Out of My Ass", 98% of all nerf requests come from some "Crapsuleer" who got pwnt and couldn't figure out how to get even so they ask the devs to cheat for them by making the offending vessel easier for them to counter with whatever garbage ship/skills/fit they use.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Marconus Orion
S.E.G.W.A.Y.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 04:46:00 -
[126]
Because warp speed is always a major factor in PvP...
Also you will lose ten times more of any other faction/T2 frigate out there compared to the Dramiel. So in the long run, the Dramiel is in fact a cheaper investment.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.24 05:16:00 -
[127]
Originally by: LordElfa It's also far more costly than the Interceptors and doesn't have the warp speed of some of them or the resists...
Warp-speed? Really? How many cases off the top of your head can you mention where that has been a deciding factor .. in most cases it actually gets you killed as you come out ahead of 'da blob' on long warps.
Resists? Really? Have you even flown an interceptor, last I checked they do not have T2 resists at all but only the racial resist bonus (not even sure about racial) .. Not that is matters much as they don't exactly have stellar base tank values to begin with.
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Tar Omrir
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Posted - 2011.05.08 23:31:00 -
[128]
I HATE THIS SHIP...unless im flying one.
it is what destroyers should be (without the speed)
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Maksim Cammeren
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Posted - 2011.05.14 20:55:00 -
[129]
Read the whole thread, but all that has to be said was already said on page 1:
Originally by: Suitonia Edited by: Suitonia on 15/11/2010 19:05:45 Yeah, I agree the Dramiel is overpowered, and it has really hurt Frigate PvP in a lot of areas. The main reasons for this I think is it has the best slot layout, it can easily fit a dual prop setup with a medium shield extender, giving it almost twice the EHP of a standard DCII Taranis, while also going twice as fast, similar dps with much better ranges, kiting ability and ability to leave, twice as agile, and capless weapons, as well as a healthy portion of its DPS in drones which work at <60km and don't rely on the Dramiel's tracking. It is very similar to a Taranis, while having none of the 'Ranis weaknesses. And it is very difficult to kill a dramiel (bearing in mind you need to be able to stop it from leaving, while at the same time being able to actually kill it, which is something which seems limited to bait fit ab/scram/web AFs like the Ishkur or Jaguar, and such ships die to a counterfit Dramiel with lr disruptor anyway.
As for the topics that keep coming up, it seems that everyone agrees that the Dramiel is OP and then tries to come up with reasons why it shouldn't be brought in line with everything else:
-Balancing by cost: would be ok with me, if the price goes up significantly
-You can kill poorly fitted/piloted Dramiels: I find it silly to balance ships based on the lowest common denominator. The problem is that you can't kill the good pilots with other frigates, which would simply avoid your scram/web/AB AF's if they want to and murder everything else. A single ship shouldn't be the best AF and the best Inty in the game.
-Don't nerf it, boost other frigates: nerfs are not a bad thing. They are a good thing. Things will never be perfectly balanced and when something gets too strong or too weak it needs to be adjusted. Ideally, one would have an equal amount of boosts and nerfs. Trying to boost every other ship in the game to compensate for one of them being OP'ed is, in my opinion, very silly. You then end up with power creep and creating more imbalances in the process, since you can't do it perfectly. Do the other faction need a boost? Maybe. But first it is important to bring the Dramiel and line and see if the other frigates become more viable.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.05.15 06:15:00 -
[130]
Currently when it comes to frigates, it is:
Dramiel or GTFO!
It should not be this way. Nerf it already.
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DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2011.05.15 18:27:00 -
[131]
Originally by: LordElfa Edited by: LordElfa on 24/04/2011 02:14:42
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
paraphrased stuff done to make people I quote look feeble by comparison
It's also far more costly than the Interceptors and doesn't have the warp speed of some of them or the resists. You're argument is subjective, comparative and other big words I don't know the meaning of.
What I do know is that this whole nerf is being caused by nothing more than butthurt, plain and simple.
Butt hurt. Hurt butt. People who's butts have been injured. As in "OMGZORZ!!!111 teh Dramiel is 2 fast for my cheap ship, my bad skillz and my $hit fit, not fair, nerf it wid fyre!!!"
As revealed in my book, "10000 Statistics I Pulled Out of My Ass", 98% of all nerf requests come from some "Crapsuleer" who got pwnt and couldn't figure out how to get even so they ask the devs to cheat for them by making the offending vessel easier for them to counter with whatever garbage ship/skills/fit they use.
LordElfa is 100% correct.
I DO NOT SUPPORT THIS "NERF DRAMIEL" PROPOSAL.
P.S. Where's the 'Thumbs Down' option?
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Dread F1ash
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Posted - 2011.06.08 07:50:00 -
[132]
/support this topic
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.08 08:05:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Sephiroth CloneVII guristas are junk compared to angel in general. Others have half the slots and double the damage, guitarists have half the slots and more range for missiles, ie quite useless.
yep at least buff guristas to angel lvl
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.06.08 10:04:00 -
[134]
I thought that angel ships are based on jovian designs. Makes sense that they should be superior to all other ships of the same class.
Why do they need a nerf? (any reason besides 'I think they are way too strong')
If you don't like how you keep losing frigate pvp to one, why don't you get one yourself?
I heard that the Drake is the hands down the best battlecrusier you can get. Would anyone think think it fair game to give other races BCs a buff so that they can fight on equal ground?
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LordElfa
Gallente Golden Lyon Warriors
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Posted - 2011.06.08 11:09:00 -
[135]
The most I would support is a removal of Drones.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Sarina Rhoda
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Posted - 2011.06.08 11:58:00 -
[136]
To balance the dram you just need to axe the drone bay OR reduce the speed down to around 3.6kms (mwd without any other speed mods)
It would still be an amazing ship just not so much of the Iwin button that it is atm.
ps. fix the phantasm it is just junk atm. (I also think the ashimu is junk but corpies of mine donÆt agree)
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