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Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.15 21:36:00 -
[1]
Hello
I would like to get some feedback from the PI-gods :), maybe a little review/bash of what I've done so far. I know my colonies really suck, I just read some guides here and there and decided to throw everything on the planet. I know I messed up, first, by putting the factories all around the planet but that can be fixed. What I really wanna know is how to improve the setup.
Did not find any "base" setups for different kind of planets so far :( so I'm asking for some advice. Below are my (crappy) planets. Thank you.
Plasma 1 | Plasma 1 close | Barren | Gas | Storm
I'm using 23hr setup as I don't have time to click all day long and I, probably, get awful return on them, so I'd be thankful for any piece of advice.
Thank you.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.16 01:44:00 -
[2]
0 reply posts? lol
Questions:
1) Why are you wasting powergrids with multiple redundant links? 2) Is there a reason why you're spreading multiple PI products on one planet? 3) Which guides did you read? 4) Not having time to click all day long, why is there only 1 Launchpad? (read logistics) 5) Why are your factories spread out over a large area? |
Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.
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Posted - 2010.11.16 02:14:00 -
[3]
1. All those factory doesn't need to be that far away from the launchpad. It's costing you CPU and powergrid that you can use for more facilities. 2. You can link all of the nearby extractor together and then link one of them the nearest facility that's linked to the launchpad. Again, the extra links is costing you CPU and powergrid that can be used for more facilities 3. Good lord, I see couple of links that are not even being used. How I can tell, one of the base metal extractor (barren) has a link to the launchpad but nothing is being routed.
Originally by: Brock Nelson OP's question is translated as: Help, I'm a female stuck in a man's body, can Incarna help?
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Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:05:00 -
[4]
Quote: 2. You can link all of the nearby extractor together and then link one of them the nearest facility that's linked to the launchpad. Again, the extra links is costing you CPU and powergrid that can be used for more facilities
Crap? Really? Dammit. I did see some factories close to each other with only 1 link but couldn't find info on that (or did not search enough).
Quote: 3. Good lord, I see couple of links that are not even being used. How I can tell, one of the base metal extractor (barren) has a link to the launchpad but nothing is being routed.
Again, damn. Did not see that.
As for the spread of the factories, I realized my mistake and redid the colony on the barren with them closer to the launch pad.
Quote: 2) Is there a reason why you're spreading multiple PI products on one planet?
What do you mean? Each planet produces 1 type of P3, without the need to import stuff.
Quote: 4) Not having time to click all day long, why is there only 1 Launchpad? (read logistics)
Mainly because I had the factories/extractors set up all wrong and there was no cpu/grid for a second launchpad. Also because I have no idea what the second Launchpad would do :D
Thank you very much for the responses.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.16 07:09:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 16/11/2010 07:13:56
Originally by: Enphelm What do you mean? Each planet produces 1 type of P3, without the need to import stuff.
Your Storm planet has only Coolant AIFs.
There's nothing inherently wrong with P3-P4 single planet production, however consider :
* the spread of multiple resource distribution across the planet which will force you to expend power allocation in links, reduce your storage buffer and you may also have to contend with low extraction yields.
* While I have not been paying close attention to P3-P4 prices, if you take the case of Robotics (P3), the pricing is almost the sum of the two P2 (Mechanical Parts & Consumer Electronics) plus a little extra. That little extra is around a ballpark 5K per robotic, which barely covers the hassles of doing the logistics for it (in addition to expending powergrid for the extra AIF and storage). In other words, it's not as profitable as you may think.
Originally by: Enphelm Also because I have no idea what the second Launchpad would do :D
Buffer both the input and output. See below example for a low maintenance config with option for 5 hr extractions :
1) http://imagebin.ca/img/LwWh0Wb.png
- Advanced CC in standard hexagonal pattern, the rest are pretty self explanatory. - 3 AIFs will work full time if you run 5 hr cycles, but it'll round down to 2-2.5 AIFs when you run 23 hr cycles. - This gives you flexible options between 5hr/23hr cycles. - The next bit is to fully utilize the 500m3 from the Advanced CC as an intermediate storage for for P1 re-distribution. This will serve as an indicator and as a tool when balancing your extraction output. - Dedicated Launchpad for 10,000m3 end product. Takes weeks to fill but fit a blockade runner rather nicely.
2) http://imagebin.ca/img/VS-J9U2C.png
- Standard hexagonal pattern where applicable. - Buffer the extraction with 10,0000m3 storage. The Launchpad is slightly more expensive than the Storage, but holds twice the amount for the same powergrid. The extra CPU is atm irrelevant. Plop it down once you've got the ideal spot however - mistakes can be expensive. - Shortens your link and gives you extreme flexibility in varying your extraction cycles without overloading your links.
edit: missing words/syntax |
Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.16 11:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sturmwolke Your Storm planet has only Coolant AIF
Coolant and oxygen for pos fuel.
As for the others, freaking amazing and thanks a lot.
So, if I understood correctly, I can have 6 extractors (same kind) and link 5 to 1 and then this last one to a launch pad. This way I don;t waste 5 link (longer) links? Correct?
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.11.16 11:18:00 -
[7]
Correct. But you will have to upgrade the link. There is not isk charge for doing do, but doubles the energy cost and capacity.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.16 11:32:00 -
[8]
It depends.
In most cases, you can link each of your extractors directly to the Launchpad in a star pattern link, with the Launchpad as the center. The extra powergrid used is negligible (you'll have more than enough excess powergrid to allocate for these circumstances). The reason is simple, avoiding the need to upgrade links to accomodate increased materiel volume when/if you increase the cycle frequency from 23hr -> 5hr -> 30mins. Your cycle time flexibility is maintained.
However, if you want to get anal about saving the powergrid, then do the shortest and least number of serial links to the Launchpad. This is useful in one situation where you had to move your extractors away from the (already built) Launchpad for richer deposits. You need to watch the link capacity in these cases though.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.16 14:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Greg Huff Correct. But you will have to upgrade the link. There is not isk charge for doing do, but doubles the energy cost and capacity.
Upgrading links is not THAT bad thing. Your objective is basically to move some m3 of 'stuff' you are extracting into launch pad and use the least possible amount of power and cpu doing it - IF - that saved power and CPU allows you to get away with another module.
For example on Improved command center you will get 19 structures with about 500 power to spare if you optimize your links properly (on a smallish planet) - that 500 power will not get you another structure so you are free to spend it on upgrading the links to make it possible to use shorted boost cykle (say you are running on 23 h but do occasional 5h boost)
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.11.16 16:41:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Berikath on 16/11/2010 16:41:20 Few things-
1. In general, it's best (IMHO) to specialize your planets. If you're extracting on a planet, extract. If you're processing up on a planet, build factories. Don't mix them up, putting AIFs on a planet with a bunch of extractors; the AIF probably won't be running at 100% (losing you potential ISK) and if a planet gives good yields, you want to take advantage of that as much as possible. Processing up to P1s using basic industrial facilities can be (and almost always is) a good idea, since it cuts volume to 25% and export costs by 95% (about a 75% reduction in volume and 80% reduction in ISK/m3), but the costs for importing/exporting P1s are so low that refining up further just doesn't make sense.
2. Your routes can be set up quite a bit better. It is much better to have your extractor cluster all link to one extractor, then have that extractor link to the launchpad. Then you have all the extractors use the one link to launchpad. Even if you need to upgrade the link to launchpad, it will be less overall cost than an individual link for each extractor.
3. Your factory placement is... less than optimal. Generally the best way to set them up (minimizing link distances and therefore link costs) is to have 6 of them surrounding your launchpad as close as possible, so it kind of looks like a hexagon
.P.P P.L.P .P.P
Kind of like that. *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
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Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.16 18:22:00 -
[11]
So I should have 2 planets, extract on one and haul to the other?
Well, this was really worth it :) I think I can now make some real colonies. Thanks a lot.
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BolsterBomb
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Posted - 2010.11.16 18:49:00 -
[12]
Instead of mkaing another post I am going to post my questions here. I started up a planet last night and then wiped it and restarted when i found that the setup failed. (you live and learn right)
1)Should you always have enough processors to handle the incoming load. Meaning isnt it wasting money not having the processors running at 100% ?
2) Can you route an extractor to a launcher and then to the processor and BACK to the launcher? I am trying to minimize storage for more extractors
3) I am extracting noble metals in a lowsec system at a 23 hr time frame. I am getting about 1k per cycle (2k per hour) is this decent?
4) Sell to the buys or actually put up sell orders?
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.11.16 19:13:00 -
[13]
Originally by: BolsterBomb Instead of mkaing another post I am going to post my questions here. I started up a planet last night and then wiped it and restarted when i found that the setup failed. (you live and learn right)
The test server can be your best friend
Originally by: BolsterBomb 1)Should you always have enough processors to handle the incoming load. Meaning isnt it wasting money not having the processors running at 100% ?
Idle processors don't make money. Keep them running.
Originally by: BolsterBomb 2) Can you route an extractor to a launcher and then to the processor and BACK to the launcher? I am trying to minimize storage for more extractors
Yes you can, and that is the recommended plan. Extractors have no storage, and Processors only store enough for the next cycle. Everything else spills onto the planet and is lost.
Extractor --> Storage --> Processor --> Storage
Originally by: BolsterBomb 3) I am extracting noble metals in a lowsec system at a 23 hr time frame. I am getting about 1k per cycle (2k per hour) is this decent?
I don't run 23hr cycles since 2 5hr's will extract more, but these numbers sound low.
Originally by: BolsterBomb 4) Sell to the buys or actually put up sell orders?
Seller's Choice. Depends what level of effort and monitoring you want to put into it, and the difference between buy and sell prices.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.11.16 21:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: BolsterBomb 1)Should you always have enough processors to handle the incoming load. Meaning isnt it wasting money not having the processors running at 100% ?
Personally, I would suggest setting your planet up so you extract slightly faster than your processors eat, if you're going with 23 hour cycles. That way they have a little bit extra to keep processing over the 24th hour (and if you're a little bit late, that way they still are running).
Quote: 4) Sell to the buys or actually put up sell orders?
As someone who puts up buy orders, I can confidently tell you to sell to buys. Or better yet, just sell directly to me :) *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Chuc Morris
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Posted - 2010.11.17 15:43:00 -
[15]
I'd like some advice please,
Actually producing more base materials than i can transform. 2 different basis processors cant process enough, so once my basis materials get in to stock hangar can i link them with two processors doing the same thing? -how (tried but at each time one of them doesnt work)
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Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.17 19:31:00 -
[16]
Back with a (probably silly) question. I had time to redo my colonies and made the hexagonal one. I route the product from the factory to the command center but I have to upgrade the link to route resources from the cc to the factory. Am I doing something wrong or is this the right way?
I redid 4 colonies, 4 different planets, but on only one I did get some extra juice to put another 2 extractors. The other 3 are working like before (same number of extractors/facilities)... it's just arranged in a fancier way.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.11.17 20:00:00 -
[17]
This thread has turned into a "post your PI setup" discussion. You could use that for inspiration (my setup included). ___________
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Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.17 20:13:00 -
[18]
Thanks for the link but most of the setups there are for highsec planets that have resources close to each other or planets used only for makign 1 type of resource (with the user hauling pi to a production planet).
I don't have any planet with that kind of resources :( and I'm in nullsec.
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.11.17 20:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Enphelm ... but I have to upgrade the link to route resources from the cc to the factory. Am I doing something wrong or is this the right way?
This is typical. Usually the power cost of upgrading the link is less than running a second one.
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Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.17 20:36:00 -
[20]
I deleted everything and instead of using the CC as the center I dropped a launch pad. I gained at least 2 structures on every planet because I don't have to upgrade the links anymore.
So, routing extractors to cc needs upgraded links but routing extractors to launch pad doesn't?
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.17 20:37:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 17/11/2010 20:39:19
Originally by: Chuc Morris .. so once my basis materials get in to stock hangar can i link them with two processors doing the same thing
I'm having a hard time figuring out what you wrote, so I can tell you've got 2 BIF producing P1 then routing it to a storage and then re-route to AIFs or BIFs?
Originally by: Enphelm Back with a (probably silly) question. I had time to redo my colonies and made the hexagonal one. I route the product from the factory to the command center but I have to upgrade the link to route resources from the cc to the factory. Am I doing something wrong or is this the right way?
The CC P1 storage and re-route shouldn't overload your links as the materiel volume's fairly negligible. All the BIFs connect directly to the CC on its own, the AIFs you either have connected directly to the CC or serially with one of the BIF. It's likely that you overloaded your links because you connected the incoming P0 serially with one of the BIF ... just connect (the P0 incoming) directly to the CC if you have powergid to spare (which you should normally have).
For Advanced CC, you should be able to fit somewhere between 22-23 structures (with 3 Launchpads inclusive) depending on planet size. If you're running in high-sec, you'll encounter problems feeding those 3 AIF, causing you to increase the number of extractors (and hence more clicking). Drop to 2 AIF if that's the case ... or find a 0.1/0.2 system somewhere.
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Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.17 20:43:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Enphelm on 17/11/2010 20:43:45 I have 19 structures (20 with cc) and there's no juice left for anything.
Edit: I rerouted everything to the Launch Pad since that would clear some juice and allow me to add 2 more extractors, so the CC doesn't do anything.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.17 20:58:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 17/11/2010 20:59:41
Now why on earth would you form hexagonal pattern on the BIF/AIF centered on the CC and you decided sudddenly to connect to the Lauchpad? My own basic links are running at 45% on metal products (biggest volume) from BIF <-> CC and the incoming Launchpad (P0) <-> CC are humming at 72%.
/keyb fail |
Enphelm
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Posted - 2010.11.17 21:12:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Enphelm on 17/11/2010 21:12:38 I did the CC hex based on your suggestion and then noticed I had to upgrade links from bif/aif>cc and extractor>cc. Using the launch pad and ditching the cc I was able to put in another extractor or 2 (no need for upgrade on links anymore).
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Chuc Morris
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Posted - 2010.11.17 22:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sturmwolke I'm having a hard time figuring out what you wrote, so far that I can tell you've got 2 BIF producing P1 then routing it to a storage and then re-route to AIFs or BIFs? .. or are you talking about the P0 from the extractors?
Sorry my english is pretty bad
Ex atm i have one processor for precioux metals so it's easy to link materials from stock hangar to that one. But once i install a second processor doing the same thing, raw materials dont get into the second processor. Done my links but doesn't works, think i've done something wrong. |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.18 05:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Enphelm I did the CC hex based on your suggestion and then noticed I had to upgrade links from bif/aif>cc and extractor>cc. Using the launch pad and ditching the cc I was able to put in another extractor or 2 (no need for upgrade on links anymore).
The suggestion calls for the use of a Launchpad to buffer extractor outputs. Therefore, there will be a fixed materiel volume transiting directly through the CC going to the BIFs. Each BIF puts a 24% load on the Launchpad -> CC connection. About the only way to overload this link is to plop another 2+ BIF.
Keep in mind incoming/outgoing link load percentage is constant for both BIF & AIF inputs/outputs. All P0/P1/P2 are 0.01/0.38/1.5m3 respectively, so each BIF/AIF inputs P0/P1 at a constant volume for processing and outputs P1/P2 at constant volume as well. Both volumes combined maxes to about 30% per BIF and 15% per AIF. As long as you keep each BIF/AIF's connection independent or below the threshold (e.g. AIF ->15% BIF ->45% CC) there is no danger of overload. Hence the hexagonal pattern around the CC.
In any case, if you personally prefer a single Launchpad configuration, then just build it around the Launchpad ... though if the powergrid savings aren't worth it to rebuild your AIF/BIF, then just leave it as it is now.
Originally by: Chuc Morris
Ex atm i have one processor for precioux metals so it's easy to link materials from stock hangar to that one. But once i install a second processor doing the same thing, raw materials dont get into the second processor. Done my links but doesn't works, think i've done something wrong.
I'm not sure what you meant by "stock hangar", does that refer to the Storage/Launchpad, Command Center or Extractor? You can multiple route materials from either Storage or Command Center to the processors (also termed BIF/AIF for Basic/Advanced Industry Facility or sometimes simply just Basic/Advanced Factories), so I don't see a problem if you're using either of those two. Also keep in mind, routing is not the same as linking.
Post a pic if that still doesn't help. Also see the EVE wiki for the very basic guide on PI. |
Berikath
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Posted - 2010.11.18 18:46:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
The suggestion calls for the use of a Launchpad to buffer extractor outputs. Therefore, there will be a fixed materiel volume transiting directly through the CC going to the BIFs. Each BIF puts a 24% load on the Launchpad -> CC connection. About the only way to overload this link is to plop another 2+ BIF......
Unless you are planning on using the command center to launch goods into orbit (presumably to try and avoid a customs-office camp), there is no reason to connect your command center to anything. At all. There is no benefit, it only wastes CPU and grid on the link. *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.19 03:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Berikath Unless you are planning on using the command center to launch goods into orbit (presumably to try and avoid a customs-office camp), there is no reason to connect your command center to anything. At all. There is no benefit, it only wastes CPU and grid on the link.
No. On the contrary, for a fully buffered config there are some advantages :
- it saves you from mixing P1/P2 products, thus giving your near 10,000m3 space without worries or hassles. - it acts as an easy visual indicator to the balance of the P0 extractions.
To debunk that it "wastes CPU and grid on the link", even if you were to remove the command center and replace it with the end-product Launchpad, the savings is almost neglible (20-25MW). For that price, the advantages are more than worth it.
Designs vary for different reasons, ranging from max productivity to ease of use. Nomadic PI makes less of a sense, but some folks might be into it - now this is where isolating your command center from the rest is best used, allowing for a fully mobile cluster(s) roaming the planet(s). Parotting the usual command center is useless without understanding the context of the design will unfortunately set the wrong mindset for anyone new at doing PI.
The prev post was intended as an explanation to the OP, the reasoning behind the impossibility of overloading the links in a correctly configured P2 cluster (Advanced CC) in response to his prev posts. It's obvious to see what he's done for PI regulars, but it may not be so obvious to someone still experimenting with PI (aka the OP).
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.11.19 18:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
No. On the contrary, for a fully buffered config there are some advantages :
- it saves you from mixing P1/P2 products, thus giving your near 10,000m3 space without worries or hassles. - it acts as an easy visual indicator to the balance of the P0 extractions.
1. Define "fully buffered config". What are you buffering? Is this an extraction colony or only a processing one? 2. Mixing P1/P2 products is not a problem. At all. Processing up to P1, P2, or P3 is ALWAYS a volume reduction, so even if everything routes to and from the same place, your buffer will empty. If it is constantly being filled with stuff (i.e., extracted P0s), then using your command center as a buffer is not a good idea, since it can only store 500 m3; that will very quickly be filled if you have multiple extractors.
Quote: To debunk that it "wastes CPU and grid on the link", even if you were to remove the command center and replace it with the end-product Launchpad, the savings is almost neglible (20-25MW). For that price, the advantages are more than worth it.
It might not waste MUCH cpu or grid on the link, but it does waste some... and that "some" can be the difference between fitting another structure on planet and not being able to.
Quote: Designs vary for different reasons, ranging from max productivity to ease of use. Nomadic PI makes less of a sense, but some folks might be into it - now this is where isolating your command center from the rest is best used, allowing for a fully mobile cluster(s) roaming the planet(s). Parotting the usual command center is useless without understanding the context of the design will unfortunately set the wrong mindset for anyone new at doing PI.
No, it will keep them from making common mistakes based on the assumption that the command center is useful. When I started off, I linked my command centers. Then I looked at everything, and realized they were useless... and so to get an optimal setup I had to rebuild my colonies. Informing new players of what the optimal setup is and why allows them to get up to speed faster and with less rebuilding. *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.19 18:40:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Berikath noise
Now you're arguing for the sake of arguing (which I'd fully expected). I'm not in the mood to play today, perhaps another time.
Please continue. Write as you will to polish your whatever. |
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