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Deanne Sheriff
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Posted - 2010.11.16 18:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Deanne Sheriff on 16/11/2010 18:39:28 Our Corp CEO and RL friend of mine wants me to help him finance the monthly fuel maintenance of a medium Gallente hisec POS. He doesn't want it to come completely out of the corp wallet primarily because his logic is that it's really the researchers who are using it the most so not all should come from the corp wallet. I'm okay with that.
By his numbers, it will cost 140M or so for 2 labs. Haven't included defences yet. Split b/w 3 investors, that's roughly 50M. I am only just now getting into research of BPs and the selling of it. So I do not know how profitable the sell of BPs are.
I am 2 months into the game. Is this worth the investment if I intend to sell BPs or use them to manufacture stuff? Primarily T1. I'm not getting into invention at this stage in the game so I'm only copying and researching them.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.16 19:09:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 16/11/2010 19:14:48
I run a Caldari large on my own. Fuel costs are more than covered by doing PI for a few minutes twice a day.
Selling researched BPO and BPCs isn't very profitable for me. Even with really expensive BPO, it won't cover the cost of the BPO for a long time. I mostly sell BPC to keep unprofitable BPO from being idle, until the market conditions change (they always do).
Industry can be very profitable, but it does require a large ISK investment for materials. Production Efficiency 5 is pretty much required, and well worth the training time.
Your first step is to do market research and see what is profitable (it varies by location location location), and that you want to get involved in.
Whatever you do, don't start spending ISK until you have a plan!
EDIT: I started with an Industrial, and single T1 module BPO that made what I thought many people would use. I even bought and re-sold the module from people that listed it below material cost. I later moved into ammo, rigs, more modules, and eventually everything else. Last time I counted I had 243 BPO, and still growing.
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.11.16 19:33:00 -
[3]
I second the PI suggestion. Train all PI skills to 4, and you can fuel the pos with everything except Ice products by running your PI extractors twice a day as stated. You can even make some extra profit if you do it right.
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Halborn
Celtic Technologies Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.16 20:13:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I second the PI suggestion. Train all PI skills to 4, and you can fuel the pos with everything except Ice products by running your PI extractors twice a day as stated. You can even make some extra profit if you do it right.
All you need is Command Center to IV so you can use advanced and Interplanetary Consolidation to IV for 5 planets Remote Sensing to II because its fast. Then just use basic command center before using the advanced and drop some extractors on the different hotspots. I've found this is more accurate and takes alot less training time.
As for fueling the POS. I currently run a large pos on my own. Setting up some PI is a requirement imo as the the robotics price is currently on the up at 46k and other costs. It takes a bit of time to setup a working system but once it is setup just reset the extractors daily and pickup the fuel to stock. As for the Ice fuel. This is debatebly. You can mine it if you choose. If you do pick a system near an ice belt it will help with transport. Alot of people though just make the money doing something else and buying as ice mining is slow and boring if you are staring at the screen.
Be aware that a High-sec Pos may draw pirate attention so make sure you have adequate defences on it. ------------------------------
CEO Celtic Technologies Inc. |
Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.11.16 20:17:00 -
[5]
The price of robotics is why I got a 2nd account who now tries to make 5 runs of robotics an hour!
As for the rest... I just say to level 4 because it works well and is a nice balance.
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Ayzn Betokhn
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Posted - 2010.11.16 20:29:00 -
[6]
You could save a lot just by looking at a small tower instead. A small tower can support two labs and is potentially quick to take down if a war dec threatens. If your corp likes to make enemies this approach may be too short-sighted, but if enough months passed with a small tower, you could save enough on fuel to just throw the tower away later, and still be ahead.
It doesn't hurt to practice on a small tower initially as far as fuel runs and maintenance of a POS. Might as well practice on a small isk sink before moving up to a bigger isk sink. If you can't make two labs and a small tower profitable, a medium tower won't turn out well as an investment.
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Deanne Sheriff
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Posted - 2010.11.16 20:40:00 -
[7]
Yeah, I thought about PI but even though it's good passive income, it will detract from my core skills. Not to mention the idea of scouting and traveling to and fro is an issue and takes away from other core activities. I have to do what I enjoy and PI isn't one of them.
I will have to consider research and building as a way to finance it along with typical mishing or whatever.
Originally by: Ayzn Betokhn You could save a lot just by looking at a small tower instead. A small tower can support two labs and is potentially quick to take down if a war dec threatens. If your corp likes to make enemies this approach may be too short-sighted, but if enough months passed with a small tower, you could save enough on fuel to just throw the tower away later, and still be ahead.
It doesn't hurt to practice on a small tower initially as far as fuel runs and maintenance of a POS. Might as well practice on a small isk sink before moving up to a bigger isk sink. If you can't make two labs and a small tower profitable, a medium tower won't turn out well as an investment.
The CEO considered that but it would be a pain to upgrade to a bigger POS down the road since he doesn't have strong enough standings. He will get someone with good standings to anchor the medium for him. Meaning even if he had a small and wanted to upgrade to a medium, then either everyone with below 5 standings has to quit corps (a pain unto itself) or start another corp again. He doesn't see himself going beyond a medium
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.11.16 20:50:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Lady Ayeipsia on 16/11/2010 20:51:25 Traveling and scouting? Are you in nul or low sec? I run 11 planets on two accounts. The furthest planet is 4 jumps away, no problems, no scouting, no long distance. Even if you don't do it for the POS fuel, you could extract Base metals and make Reactive metals (I think that's it) on a barren planet, which are in pretty much every system. Reactive metals would sell well enough. Seriously, you'll spend just as much time skilling up to do good research and you'll make good money.
As for selling BPCs... look at the market. It's not worth it. A cruiser BPO costs say 60 mil on average for the good ones. It will take you 2 months to research it to an ME level of about 50. Anything less won't sell on contract, and even that will be outdone by many others. Even if you do get a high ME and PE level, they sell 1 max run copy at about 2 million a piece at best. That's 30 copies just to make your money back from buying the BPO, not including the fuel costs you spent while that was researched. You really would be better off doing something else for the initial income.
As for the tower... if things go well, you'll want the large and still have to do the whole drop corp/start new corp. The medium will last you a while and let you man defenses at least. Do you have a POS gunner? That may also be worth while.
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Deanne Sheriff
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Posted - 2010.11.17 04:12:00 -
[9]
I'm typically everywhere across several regions from basic trading to mishing to well, whatever. So it's a nuisance for me to continue back to the planets that I'm extracting from every day. There are some days when I don't even log on and so I'd be losing some money as well.
Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Edited by: Lady Ayeipsia on 16/11/2010 20:51:25
As for selling BPCs... look at the market. It's not worth it.
I have to believe it is. Why else would everyone here go with the hassle of setting up a hisec POS if there wasn't money to be made. Unless of course you are just trying to minimize the competition :)
You can't tell me that it's that big of a lost leader, can you?
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Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
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Posted - 2010.11.17 07:25:00 -
[10]
Why do you even think twice? If a RL friend asks me for 50 mil a month I wouldn't even hesitate to give it to him.
After all it's only half an hour of trading, three hours of missioning, six hours of PI or 700 hours of mining per month
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.11.17 08:33:00 -
[11]
You shouldn't be putting up a POS and then trying to figure out how to make ISK off it. You should start an internet space business and grow it until it becomes cheaper/more cost effective to erect a POS and move all your copying/ME research in-house than to pay someone else to do it.
That should take care of any and all issues with affording POS fuel; I cannot imagine why anyone in their right mind would ever want to erect a highsec POS unless it was to support a business whose weekly profits would cover several months' fuel. Signature removed. |
Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2010.11.17 09:31:00 -
[12]
Why you simply not buy a plex with real money, set up a pos for very short time, me research all your pbos you have and when the research is done, get rid of the pos. Selling a plex gives you something about 360 mill nowadays.
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Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
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Posted - 2010.11.17 09:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus I cannot imagine why anyone in their right mind would ever want to erect a highsec POS unless it was to support a business whose weekly profits would cover several months' fuel.
As a matter of fact, I did.
Over a year ago I put up a small POS to get access to ME and PE research slots for my own blueprints to manufacture off. I saved about 300 mils *) in the first two months alone instead of buying BPOs off the market or for a third-party researcher.
*) already adjusted for the costs of BPCs, which I had to buy to produce the whole two months
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.17 11:01:00 -
[14]
I would seriously consider a Caldari Medium or DG Medium (if longer than one year) if you're purely doing research for profits. Assuming you keep working the labs 24/7, the extra lab capacity translates into 3 more Copy slots, which will more than pay for the hassle/extra costs of Nitrogen isotopes in non-Caldari space.
However, if you plan to start small with just 2 labs, use the small POS (any race). Plop it down, put the labs and off you go. There's no point in putting offline defences. In a wardec, you're not going to be able to defend it properly anyway.
Popular T1 BPC market's completely saturated. You may make some profits off it, but you'll be relying on volume rather than profit margin. However, there are a few niches here and there, which you will have to find yourself. Keep in mind that your competitiveness will be hampered by the extra fuel costs by using a standard POS. The BPCs that will give you decent margins require hundreds of millions/billions in investment, these are typically BS BPOs and above.
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Deanne Sheriff
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Posted - 2010.11.17 16:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus You shouldn't be putting up a POS and then trying to figure out how to make ISK off it. You should start an internet space business and grow it until it becomes cheaper/more cost effective to erect a POS and move all your copying/ME research in-house than to pay someone else to do it.
That should take care of any and all issues with affording POS fuel; I cannot imagine why anyone in their right mind would ever want to erect a highsec POS unless it was to support a business whose weekly profits would cover several months' fuel.
All good points. I'm new to this so kinda just working through it in my head. So it may seem that a more viable route is to approach the hisec pos more as a cost savings tool than, say a moneymaker. ie; We(the corp) are using it to research BPs and save us some money rather than trying to use it to sell the BPs on what is already a competitive market. Of course, I'll still do my own research and try to look for certain niches .
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Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2010.11.17 16:38:00 -
[16]
You may also find someone whom you can pay for me researching your bpos. There are lots of corps with a pos who probably like to get paid for this service. And you gonna save a lot of time and trouble with getting your own pos.
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Caghji
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Posted - 2010.11.18 02:27:00 -
[17]
A number of posts here seem to hint to the fact that PI stuff is free?
It is not
don't get lulled into that
PI stuff has a value
In this example lets say your PI stuff has a value of 50mil selling on the open market a month
If it is costing you 50mil to run the POS then what the POS is producing for you must have a value of 50mil for you to break even
This 50mil might come from selling PI stuff on the market or by putting the PI stuff into the POS
Either way make sure the ævalue of what you are getting from the POSÆ is more than the value of the fuels you put into it
In other words If you are also dumping your own PI stuff into the POS (instead of selling it on the market for 50mil) donÆt treat it as free
caghji
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.18 21:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Caghji A number of posts here seem to hint to the fact that PI stuff is free?
I make POS fuel, then sell excess PI products to buy ice products. It isn't free, nor without value, but it doesn't take any ISK out of my pocket. I earn more from selling PI stuff than it takes to fuel my large POS.
I typically run two 5-hour cycles a day. I was doing this all in hisec until recently, with planets no further than 2 jumps away from the POS.
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Deanne Sheriff
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Posted - 2010.11.19 04:36:00 -
[19]
After some basic research, I can see the general BPC market is highly competitive. It wouldn't even warrant investing into a POS for copying/research since I can buy many BPs for cheap especially with where I'm at in the game right now.
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Main ForumAlt
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Posted - 2010.11.19 23:25:00 -
[20]
People really need to learn how to handle opportunity costs. As long as you live somewhere with a functioning PI marked, the question "should I run a POS?" is totally unrelated to "should I do PI".
Now, in a wh or in the butt end of nowhere the story is a bit different, but that's another story
If you don't get why, you probably shouldn't run a POS.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.11.20 00:15:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Ghoest on 20/11/2010 00:15:05 2 good points I saw made in this thread, that trump everything else -
1 DONT BUILD A POS UNLESS YOU HAVE FIGURED HOW IT IS WORTH IT TO YOU.
2 Its a real life friend asking for a rather small amount so who cares give it to him.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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