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TriadSte
Gallente Adeptus Arbites
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Posted - 2010.11.19 11:05:00 -
[1]
1. When probing, even though I have very high probe skills I've always wondered why when scanning there is 2 hits for 1 sig many AU apart. When scanning in a 3d environment like space you will only ever get 1 hit which then needs narrowing down. How can 1 anom be in 2 places many AU apart?
I guess it's the same question of why is EVE using submarine mechanics as opposed to actual zero G spacial environment, Go figure...
2. Lag, I am a PI monster and it makes me alot of isk but the lag between exporting and the product getting to where I want it there's a good second or 2 delay a lot of the time, for me this sucks anal cavity. Is it because WH space is 0.0 and where there is 0.0 always lurks the lag monster?
My net connection is fine and rock solid so I cannot seem to believe the lag is because of my ISP/Hardware.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.11.19 11:09:00 -
[2]
Because two of your probes get a hit on the same signal with different degrees of accuracy. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.19 11:32:00 -
[3]
Originally by: TriadSte 1. When probing, even though I have very high probe skills I've always wondered why when scanning there is 2 hits for 1 sig many AU apart. When scanning in a 3d environment like space you will only ever get 1 hit which then needs narrowing down. How can 1 anom be in 2 places many AU apart?
I guess it's the same question of why is EVE using submarine mechanics as opposed to actual zero G spacial environment, Go figure...
No ù quite the opposite. It's because they made it fairly realistic, so what you're seeing is that only three of your probes are finding the site. To pinpoint a location in n-dimensional space, you need n+1 reference points (cf. triangulation in 2D-space).
In terms of the EVE's probing system, it works like this:
Each probe simply gives you the distance to the signal(s) they find.
If you find a signal with one probe, all you know is the distance between probe and site. This means that it can be anywhere no the surface of a sphere centred around the probe, with the radius equal to that distance.
If you find a signal with two probes, you get two such spheres ù one for each probe ù and you can determine that the signal sits somewhere where those two spheres intersect each other. This intersection will be a circle (visualise two soap bubbles merged with the site sitting on the edge where the two connect).
If you find a signal with three probes, you get three sphere, and you can determine that the signal sits somewhere where this third sphere intersects the circle created by the other two spheres. This will give you two points (one where the circle enters the sphere; one where it leaves).
To reduce that solution to a single point, you need a fourth probe. Unless you've managed to really match up things well (i.e. placed your probes poorly), only one of those two points will match the distance to the signal that the fourth probe detects, and thus you have your single-point solution. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Kaahles
Fulcrum Weapon Systems Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.19 11:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: TriadSte 1. When probing, even though I have very high probe skills I've always wondered why when scanning there is 2 hits for 1 sig many AU apart. When scanning in a 3d environment like space you will only ever get 1 hit which then needs narrowing down. How can 1 anom be in 2 places many AU apart?
I guess it's the same question of why is EVE using submarine mechanics as opposed to actual zero G spacial environment, Go figure...
No ù quite the opposite. It's because they made it fairly realistic, so what you're seeing is that only three of your probes are finding the site. To pinpoint a location in n-dimensional space, you need n+1 reference points (cf. triangulation in 2D-space).
In terms of the EVE's probing system, it works like this:
Each probe simply gives you the distance to the signal(s) they find.
If you find a signal with one probe, all you know is the distance between probe and site. This means that it can be anywhere no the surface of a sphere centred around the probe, with the radius equal to that distance.
If you find a signal with two probes, you get two such spheres ù one for each probe ù and you can determine that the signal sits somewhere where those two spheres intersect each other. This intersection will be a circle (visualise two soap bubbles merged with the site sitting on the edge where the two connect).
If you find a signal with three probes, you get three sphere, and you can determine that the signal sits somewhere where this third sphere intersects the circle created by the other two spheres. This will give you two points (one where the circle enters the sphere; one where it leaves).
To reduce that solution to a single point, you need a fourth probe. Unless you've managed to really match up things well (i.e. placed your probes poorly), only one of those two points will match the distance to the signal that the fourth probe detects, and thus you have your single-point solution.
QTF for some additional reference go here ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
TriadSte
Gallente Adeptus Arbites
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Posted - 2010.11.19 12:27:00 -
[5]
All great info and thx for posting but I dont think I have made myself clear enough from your replies.
Take again for example getting 2 hits on the same scan ID from 2 probes.
To make it easier for you guys to answer imagine red dot 1 is 10AU directly above red dot 2
The actual anom is only ever in 1 place therefore, how do 2 probes pick it up in such a severely different location?
Its sort of like im sitting in a radio house in the UK and im picking up a signal and I've located it to be in the region of France but really the signal is coming from Japan.
If you can grasp my crazy british understanding.
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Marchocias
Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2010.11.19 12:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Marchocias on 19/11/2010 12:52:55
Originally by: TriadSte ...Take again for example getting 2 hits on the same scan ID from 2 probes.
To make it easier for you guys to answer imagine red dot 1 is 10AU directly above red dot 2
The actual anom is only ever in 1 place therefore, how do 2 probes pick it up in such a severely different location?...
A single probe doesn't find the location of a site in any way. It only finds the distance the site is away from the probe, without any direction. If you scan with just one probe, you generally get a big red sphere representing any scanned site; the surface of the sphere represents ALL points at that distance from that probe.
If you have 2 probes find distance to a site, and their spheres intersect, the place where they intersect is a circle (that red circle you sometimes see) which represents ALL points at distance #1 from probe #1 AND distance #2 from probe #2.
If you add a third probe sphere to these two, then there will be 2 points where sphere #3 intersects the circle made by spheres #1 & #2 - these two points are those 2 locations which have the correct distances from those probes. ONE of them is the site.
If you have 4 or more probes out, but only 3 of them get any read on the distance of the site, then you get the same result as 3 probes.
It is only when a 4th probes sphere is added to the intersection that you can determine which of those two is actually correct.
---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.19 12:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: TriadSte Take again for example getting 2 hits on the same scan ID from 2 probes.
If you're actually getting this rather than using it as an example, bug-report it ù with two probes, you should only ever get a circle or a sphere.
Quote: The actual anom is only ever in 1 place therefore, how do 2 probes pick it up in such a severely different location?
Because (again), if you don't have a full four-probe hit, you will have more than one location to choose from. Read through my explanation again, and consider the three-probe problem: you have two intersection points, and they will be above or below the plane created by your three probes. However, since you're missing that fourth probe, you have no way of determining which way. You know that it's, say, 5 AU away from the plane (because you can determine this much with only three probes), but you don't know in which direction. It could be up 5 AU or down 5 AU, so the game shows both possibilities, and they will ù quite obviously ù be 10 AU apart.
Or, if you want a more hands-on illustration. Consider a four-sided die (or build one by gluing six matchsticks together). Each base corner is a probe; the top corner is where the hit isà àexcept that you can get the exact same solution by turning the die upside-down: the probes (base corners) are still in the same locations as before, but the hit is somewhere completely different, and still gives you the same distance to your three probes. So there are two solutions to this problem, and you can't determine which is the real one without a fourth probe.
The only slight exception is that you might get two hits even though you have four probes out, in which case you can still determine which is a false hit by figuring out which three probes generated that two-point solution and seeing if one of the points should have been picked up by the fourth probe had it been the real location of the signal. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2010.11.19 13:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: TriadSte All great info and thx for posting but I dont think I have made myself clear enough from your replies.
Take again for example getting 2 hits on the same scan ID from 2 probes.
To make it easier for you guys to answer imagine red dot 1 is 10AU directly above red dot 2
The actual anom is only ever in 1 place therefore, how do 2 probes pick it up in such a severely different location?
Its sort of like im sitting in a radio house in the UK and im picking up a signal and I've located it to be in the region of France but really the signal is coming from Japan.
If you can grasp my crazy british understanding.
With the distances involved for you to be getting something close to 10AU apart, its actually alot more like you're sitting in a radio house in the UK and you've picked up an extremely faint signal coming from Paris but your not sure if its the eiffel tower or the Arc de Triomphe.
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heheheh
Phoenix Club
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Posted - 2010.11.19 14:14:00 -
[9]
When it calculates where it is, using a distance for each probe, there are two possible positions for it to be using the collected distances. if you notice, they are always about the same place just above or below. Basically your probes are telling you some distances and working out it could be at point A or point B.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.11.19 14:40:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 19/11/2010 14:42:34
Quote:
All great info and thx for posting but I dont think I have made myself clear enough from your replies.
Take again for example getting 2 hits on the same scan ID from 2 probes.
To make it easier for you guys to answer imagine red dot 1 is 10AU directly above red dot 2
The actual anom is only ever in 1 place therefore, how do 2 probes pick it up in such a severely different location?
Its sort of like im sitting in a radio house in the UK and im picking up a signal and I've located it to be in the region of France but really the signal is coming from Japan.
If you can grasp my crazy british understanding.
Your example is misleading, it's why you don't see how it goes.
First of all you talk like you are using a directional antenna in your UK house, probes are not directional, not even a bit.
A more fitting example it this:
1) You are sitting in your radio house in the UK and you want to trace an airplane in Asia. 2) You launch multiple probes and randomly place them in Asia, where it's vaguely the region where the airplane is expected to pass by. 3) Each of those probes sends you exclusively two informations: if it "pings" an object you chose and its absolute distance from it, without any direction nor vector. I.e. imagine it's pinging and getting an echo back after X time. By the X time - send ping time / medium propagation speed it can calculate the distance, nothing more. 4) It's you who by knowing where your probes are and then by matching 2 or more of these distance informations above you can triangulate them and thus find a vector.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Xercodo
Amarr INESTO Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.19 16:07:00 -
[11]
visual aide \o/
as previously explained the probes can only tell distance
when they collaborate they both find that there is a signature the same distance away and thats where the next probes come in
this is how triangulation is used to determine the epicenter of earthquakes, on earth tho we only work in 2 dimensions, and as you can see you need 3 minimum for 2D. In space we work in 3 so you need a 4th probe
-------------------------------------------------- The drake is a lie
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Lors Dornick
Caldari Untied Dysleckticks
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Posted - 2010.11.19 16:28:00 -
[12]
Lots of good info here, good read indeed.
One thing that one also has to consider when trying to understand the scanning system is the concept of scan deviation.
The probes doesn't return the actual distance to the target but an approximated distance modified by the scan deviation value.
Grab a char with very low scanning skills and try to scan in a non-boosted ship. You'll see how the targets jump around all over the place.
// Lors |
TriadSte
Gallente Adeptus Arbites
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Posted - 2010.11.19 20:56:00 -
[13]
Awesome, I now get it [ I think ]
Cheers guys
/Ste
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