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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2010.11.21 21:34:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 21/11/2010 21:34:38
Originally by: Opertone
Set random rock fields as exploration... Asteroid sites that migrate around space and are rather hard to trace down. Miners that look for valuable ore fields get rewarded better that carebears who prefer to grind barren (20% rich) rocks.
Macros mining 20% quality rocks will still make the 100% quality rocks near worthless, just by the volume of macros. Macros really are the root of all evil in the Eve economy.
But, it's not going to change anytime soon. Not because of some CCP conspiracy for more accounts or whatever (it is clear from past CCP actions that they consider macros a detriment), but because dedicated, effective abuse policing required full time, dedicated investigators, and CCP is a very small company. I do fraud protection for a large company, and the size of our staff that handles genuine crimes is minuscule. To expect a very small company to hire sufficient staff to police mere EULA violations is not realistic. Their only realistic hope forward is to change the mining system to be less macro-friendly.
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Opertone
Caldari Metalworks Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.11.21 21:52:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Opertone on 21/11/2010 21:55:28 I take your point. But we all need to move towards to more rewarding, more exciting mining...
Locating dense asteroid batch should be as promising as seeing a faction rat in deep space.
Minerals are treasures that one must be able to extract transport and process, not infinitely lying around and growing back.
Static asteroid fields only fuel the macrobots temptation. Macros aren't able to make choices or adapt fast... Intensify the rate of events and give multiple choices, in which macros can fail.
NPCs purge waves should be at least carebear aware, and deal a massive fear shockwave to macrominers.
Ninja edit: at least make macrobot wrecks more rewarding... solo, defenseless and very profitable, like seal furs. I am sure that natural predators will control their population fast. Make macrobots taste good, the wolves will come!
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Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr PORSCHE AG
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Posted - 2010.11.21 22:55:00 -
[33]
I think that easiest way to fix things is ti make belts non static... easy to pinpoint but you must scan them down... macros cant move probes close to dot on screan that easy... and i think that that would be soulution for makro mining.. "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.11.21 23:05:00 -
[34]
I dont see what the problem is.
Trit, and pyerite are at about the same price.
mex has gone up 20%
noxcium has gone up in price 250% from 100 to 350 per.
isogen has gone up 20%.
You are mining the wrong stuff.
mine Jaspet, Hemorphite and Hedgeberite.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2010.11.21 23:20:00 -
[35]
You forgot 5 and 5a..
5) Encourage more activity that causes ships to go Boom. 5a) Have Hulks salvage into nice T2 rig materials frequently.
I like these two ideas better than your 3 n 4. You should thank CCP for what they did to drone reproc already as it aloud nox to do what its doing. What do you propose be done to drone regions if drone loot removed.. changed to guristas/angel rats so a much more ridiculous amount of isk can be chucked into the game? Think it through.. remove drone loot, add more bounties, macro-rat.. flood isk into game, less minerals, mineral prices go up, everything gets more expensive, massive isk faucet further escalates this inflation without the current high mineral supply keeping it down.. the miner mining to pay for PvP or supply PvP for alli/corp is really just making the same ratio as now. Pointless.
Go after macros with more dedication, CCP and players. And change mining mechanics are better than just removing T1/drone loot from tables. Altho I don't mind the T1 removal, both is asking way too much to a broken system that needs a direct fix, not an indirect fix.
---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Halfbree Subhuma
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Posted - 2010.11.21 23:28:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Halfbree Subhuma on 21/11/2010 23:29:46 Newsflash dip****s
While you were afk mining posting on the forums baawwing about insurance fraud you were destroying the only thing that gave mineral prices a floor.
Now they can just sink into the dreery pits of hell to join you
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Kyra Felann
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.11.21 23:39:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney CCP is a very small company
353 employees (as of 2009) with offices on three continents is a "very small company"? -----SIGNATURE-----
Originally by: CCP Ginger Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.11.22 01:01:00 -
[38]
Make mining like it that probing minigame in Mass Effect 2 :)
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2010.11.22 01:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kyra Felann
Originally by: Emperor Cheney CCP is a very small company
353 employees (as of 2009) with offices on three continents is a "very small company"?
Good point.
Modified: it seems the dedicated Eve team is on the small side. I'd consider anything under the couple hundreds pretty small, especially considering that compliance teams add nothing to the bottom line.
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Doddy
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.11.22 01:35:00 -
[40]
Originally by: wah bok
Originally by: Jamaican Herbsman
Originally by: Nikolai Kondratiev 1. Minerals I mine are free 2. Minerals sell on market 3. ???? 4. Free money = profit!
2b. If I use the minerals I mined for free to build ships, I can sell them at lower prices than anyone because the minerals I mined were free
So instead of selling the mins and make more money you choose to spend time building a ship and then sell at lower cost ?? your not very smart are you
Sarcasm detection failure, ship going down
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oricle delphi
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Posted - 2010.11.22 10:18:00 -
[41]
just make it so when you reprocess items you get salvage and drones compound into polymer or something instead. this then brings down the price of salvage,increases the price of minerals and adds a bit of polymers or something to the market. this way instead of everything relying on mineral prices for the basic price it is more balanced and speared out over 3 basic items.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
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Posted - 2010.11.22 10:55:00 -
[42]
Make mining as it is now, plus if you want to make a far, far higher yield, add some mini-game to it, like pinpointing the weak spots on the rock to make it break faster, if you'r good at it, making it ultra fast and increasing yield 5-10 times. Macros tend not to be too good in mini games, especially the ones with a lot of random factors.
I.E. when you mine a rock, a window opens with the rock, it has some points highlighted in some sort of way. For each strip miner on a rock you have 1 shot every 6 seconds with it to weaken the rock. If you shoot the right spots it breaks apart and you instantly get the right ores, finishing the cycle earlyer.
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Kappas Katamara
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Posted - 2010.11.22 11:42:00 -
[43]
- Each system has a fixed number of grav sites that can be easily scanned down. - Each grav site has enough ore to keep a hulk busy for an hour or two. - Grav sites despawn/respawn every 1-2 hours (unless occupied) so that macro miners cant bookmark 23 hours worth of sites. - Keep static belts for beginners. - Make belt roids so small that 1-2 cycles with a civilian miner depletes them. If a barge/exhumer tries to mine them the large majority of their laser cycles are wasted. If they try and pulse their lasers they will quickly run out of cap.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.22 12:29:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kappas Katamara - Each system has a fixed number of grav sites that can be easily scanned down. - Each grav site has enough ore to keep a hulk busy for an hour or two. - Grav sites despawn/respawn every 1-2 hours (unless occupied) so that macro miners cant bookmark 23 hours worth of sites. - Keep static belts for beginners. - Make belt roids so small that 1-2 cycles with a civilian miner depletes them. If a barge/exhumer tries to mine them the large majority of their laser cycles are wasted. If they try and pulse their lasers they will quickly run out of cap.
Essentially: "I want very much to **** up corp mining operations."
And I doubt any good quality macro (i.e. those used by the RMT cartels) will have any problem pulsing the beams at the right ration to keep the cap up.
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.22 12:41:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kappas Katamara - Each system has a fixed number of grav sites that can be easily scanned down. - Each grav site has enough ore to keep a hulk busy for an hour or two. - Grav sites despawn/respawn every 1-2 hours (unless occupied) so that macro miners cant bookmark 23 hours worth of sites. - Keep static belts for beginners. - Make belt roids so small that 1-2 cycles with a civilian miner depletes them. If a barge/exhumer tries to mine them the large majority of their laser cycles are wasted. If they try and pulse their lasers they will quickly run out of cap.
To put this into the proper perspective: Anything that a person can do, a bot can be designed to do. If you make it so that you have to perform a mundane task (retargeting, typing in magic numbers or whatever) the bots will do it more efficiently than any person could.
PI has taught me one thing, and that is: there is no task mundane enough that it can't be automated and forgotten about.
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Aeo IV
Amarr Oneironautics Research Institute
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Posted - 2010.11.22 13:21:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: Kappas Katamara - Each system has a fixed number of grav sites that can be easily scanned down. - Each grav site has enough ore to keep a hulk busy for an hour or two. - Grav sites despawn/respawn every 1-2 hours (unless occupied) so that macro miners cant bookmark 23 hours worth of sites. - Keep static belts for beginners. - Make belt roids so small that 1-2 cycles with a civilian miner depletes them. If a barge/exhumer tries to mine them the large majority of their laser cycles are wasted. If they try and pulse their lasers they will quickly run out of cap.
To put this into the proper perspective: Anything that a person can do, a bot can be designed to do. If you make it so that you have to perform a mundane task (retargeting, typing in magic numbers or whatever) the bots will do it more efficiently than any person could.
PI has taught me one thing, and that is: there is no task mundane enough that it can't be automated and forgotten about.
Perhaps, but, if a miner had to use his mouse to direct the laser's interaction with a roid, to avoid crap material (like a miner's version of scrap metal) and material that can clog or disable their lasers...
It's not that it can't be done by bots, but it takes a lot of work to get an AI that has the visual recognition capabilities to perform such a task, especially if each 'random hot spot map' is generated server side and not client side.
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Darrigaaz
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:39:00 -
[47]
Need more Hulkaggedons!
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Munson McCracken
Podbusters
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:08:00 -
[48]
It's very simple.
The economy is fine, mining is at the bottom.
"Fixing" mining, something new will be at the bottom. Rinse repeat process with new occupation.
None of this will increase subscriptions.
For CCP, a waste of resources.
Nothing is going to change.
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:44:00 -
[49]
A certain number of hours of mining is needed to get the minerals to build a battleship. What if instead you sold the minerals and bought the battle ship? It would take about 20% longer (the profit margin of the builder). Making minerals more expensive will not change the TIME it takes to get a new ship. It just makes the ship more expensive too.
That said: Death to all mining bots! (and other bots for that matter).
Bots cannot do everything a person does, they fail at those highly distorted character sequences you see on some web sites, characters you must type in to post or make an account, and are there to stop spam bots. They work 80% of the time.
People are better at pattern recognition than machines. So if mining could be a visual puzzle, relatively easy for people, hard for machines, that would go a long way.
An inelegant method: every now and then a message pops up "Your miners have experienced a power overload, enter this code to clear it". Also to stop courier mission bots: "To unlock your mission payload, enter this code".
CCP could made this something they trigger on suspected macro users leaving the rest of us alone.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2010.11.22 18:38:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 22/11/2010 18:41:59 Miners begged & pleaded for bigger better toys, so CCP gave them to us and we cheered. And mineral prices fell. Miners begged & pleaded for more ABCM to mine, so CCP gave it to us and we cheered. And mineral prices fell. Miners whined & cried about suicide ganks being too cheap thanks to insurance, so CCP nerfed insurance and we cheered. And mineral prices fell.
Stop whining about the game mechanics and do something about your failing business.
Kill the competition.
Whether or not anyone chooses to accept it, mining is PvP. Until players choose to control supply & demand on their markets, it will control what they can earn.
Macro miners mining in your area? He's the competition, gank him! WH link opens to another hole full of miners? They're the competition, gank them! Haulers importing minerals to your market to undercut your prices? There's more competition, gank them! Don't have the skills to do it yourself? Train them! A gank destroyer can be trained in days on a noob account. Don't have the numbers to do it yourself? Join a corp that does, start your own, or keep a list of contacts that will join you in the name of protecting their local market. Still don't have the numbers to do it? Get some mercs! Sell them ships at cost, offer a bounty on each competing barge, exhumer or hauler they kill in your area, and buy any competing loot at the market's Sell price.
Not only does this limit the supply of minerals on your market, every lost ship will be replaced creating more demand for minerals. More demand + less supply = higher prices.
No single miner is going to be able to change EvE, but if mining coalitions organize their efforts, encourage miners in other areas to organize their efforts, and kill off anyone that doesn't cooperate; together they can begin to make a difference.
I've always felt that this is what EvE is supposed to be: Corporations conducting business by every method available. There's no shortage of players happy to spend their time ganking other players, and doing it for free. Put them to work and kill the competition.
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:08:00 -
[51]
In my opinion, mining should be more engaging than simply fire and forget.
I think there needs to be some sort of small mini game attached to it.
The mini game should be in either:
a) removing all warp-able belts from systems and having them all appear as re-spawning grav sites (just much more frequent and easy to scan) with the actual mining being the same as it is now.
or
b) turn the actual mining itself into the mini game. Perhaps you need to calibrate your lasers to maximize your yield, and have it sort of like the scanning mini-game. You could afk mine for extremely low yield, or you could micro manage your lasers for a higher yield. This uses the same sort of "more micromanagement = more profit" philosophy that PI currently uses with extractor cycle times.
I think changes along these lines would make mining more engaging, kill the profit from macro mining, and boost the profits of dedicated miners. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:13:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Magnus Orin
a) removing all warp-able belts from systems and having them all appear as re-spawning grav sites (just much more frequent and easy to scan) with the actual mining being the same as it is now.
Sounds fair, have about 5% of all belts warpable but have limited / crappy ore for noobs etc
For everyone else they will have to scan them out and for the sake of things change missions too
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Dhaul
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:14:00 -
[53]
Zero risk, low reward
Working as intended IMO
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mechtech
SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:18:00 -
[54]
CCP needs the best anti-macro team in any MMO. Hopefully once they get lag fixed up a bit more they can focus on making life as hard as possible for macros (no, they will never be gone, but it's kind of out of control at this point).
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:20:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kalle Demos
Originally by: Magnus Orin
a) removing all warp-able belts from systems and having them all appear as re-spawning grav sites (just much more frequent and easy to scan) with the actual mining being the same as it is now.
Sounds fair, have about 5% of all belts warpable but have limited / crappy ore for noobs etc
Yes, I like this compromise a lot.
It gives day 1 newbs something to learn on as they would not have the skills to scan yet.
It would keep the macros out because it would be wasted time, and if you tried to micro manage by cycling the strips, you would cap out fast.
All in all, I think this is the best option. It's one I've seen come up several times in the years I've played Eve. Hopefully CCP will eventually listen.
As an added side effect, it could give a slight boost to low sec as well, making the belts there slightly safer.
(If you are mining in an empty low sec system, you would have much more time to safe up from a scanned belt than you would from a warp-able belt when a hostile enters the system) Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk I dont see what the problem is.
Trit, and pyerite are at about the same price.
mex has gone up 20%
noxcium has gone up in price 250% from 100 to 350 per.
isogen has gone up 20%.
You are mining the wrong stuff.
mine Jaspet, Hemorphite and Hedgeberite.
Because pulling numbers out of your ass snipes threads.
Seriously, comparing them to what? they are down overall, not up. Trit is down 100% since 2009 for example.
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Troll Bridgington
SWARTA Mostly Clueless
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:39:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Edited by: Xanos Blackpaw on 21/11/2010 14:41:20
4) Remove drone compound drops. Make them drop Named loot instead.
I felt a tremor in the force... like a thousand Russian macros cried out and then were silenced...
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:48:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Magnus Orin
Originally by: Kalle Demos
Originally by: Magnus Orin
a) removing all warp-able belts from systems and having them all appear as re-spawning grav sites (just much more frequent and easy to scan) with the actual mining being the same as it is now.
Sounds fair, have about 5% of all belts warpable but have limited / crappy ore for noobs etc
Yes, I like this compromise a lot.
It gives day 1 newbs something to learn on as they would not have the skills to scan yet.
It would keep the macros out because it would be wasted time, and if you tried to micro manage by cycling the strips, you would cap out fast.
All in all, I think this is the best option. It's one I've seen come up several times in the years I've played Eve. Hopefully CCP will eventually listen.
As an added side effect, it could give a slight boost to low sec as well, making the belts there slightly safer.
(If you are mining in an empty low sec system, you would have much more time to safe up from a scanned belt than you would from a warp-able belt when a hostile enters the system)
Missions will need changing so T1 loot isnt all over the market.
Eitherway this only solves one of the macro issues, you still have macro ratters and macro couriers
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Opertone
Caldari Metalworks Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:56:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: Kappas Katamara - Each system has a fixed number of grav sites that can be easily scanned down. - Each grav site has enough ore to keep a hulk busy for an hour or two. - Grav sites despawn/respawn every 1-2 hours (unless occupied) so that macro miners cant bookmark 23 hours worth of sites. - Keep static belts for beginners. - Make belt roids so small that 1-2 cycles with a civilian miner depletes them. If a barge/exhumer tries to mine them the large majority of their laser cycles are wasted. If they try and pulse their lasers they will quickly run out of cap.
To put this into the proper perspective: Anything that a person can do, a bot can be designed to do. If you make it so that you have to perform a mundane task (retargeting, typing in magic numbers or whatever) the bots will do it more efficiently than any person could.
PI has taught me one thing, and that is: there is no task mundane enough that it can't be automated and forgotten about.
finding rich rocks that are abundant with minerals gives good isk per hour ratio... grinding dust + water rocks... no output at all. Make mining dependent on choice, scanning and exploration. Provide a mining drone bonus to certain newbie mining ships... so that they get skills for mining faster and become competitive at the start of profession, before they reach 5 mill in industry and 5 mill in spaceship command (drone boats still have small cargo hold and have to micromanage or a lot)
Profit through trade... less excess supply of mins. Profit through actual mineral transportation. More region driven mineral surplus (shortage).
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Cipher Jones Seriously, comparing them to what? they are down overall, not up. Trit is down 100% since 2009 for example.
No it's not. Then the price would be 0. |
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