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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:33:00 -
[1]
This is not a post about rebalancing any ships or other weapons besides projectiles. As you may or may not know projectile weapons had been given some love on the test server. The goal is to make projectiles "suck less" without turning them into the next flavor of the month. The plan is to give them a slight nudge here and there based on their intended role. I'd rather give multiple small nudges than boost them too much and have to nerf them. No one likes being nerfed. Basically what we've done is boost autocannons damage by 10% and their tracking by 20%, boosted artilleries damage by 15% and optimal range by 15% and finally boosted Howitzers damage by 15%. I've got some graphs for the more visually inclined that should help people grasp the changes.
A bit of explaination about the graphs is in order for people who haven't seen one of these before. These are damage over time by range taking in to account transverse velocity and sig radius graphs. I've used a transversal of 100 m/s and a sig radius of 400 (typical battleship numbers). In all cases short range/high damage ammo was used. The higher up the graph the line is the more damage the gun is doing. The further right on the graph you go the further the distance is from your target.
The first graph we will look at is the 1400mm Howitzer. This graph was generated with max gunnery skills but no ship bonuses. The graph has the same curves but larger/small number on the left if a Tempest is used or if we were looking at 720mm/280mm howies. We can see by this graph that the new 1400mm are doing more damage from 16km to 48km than the old ones did at peak damage. Damage peaks at aprox 30km. Hmm, that's all I have to say about that one.
Next is the 1200mm. Arties are not very popular currently but hopefully with the changes players will come up with ways to better utilize this weapon. Worth noting about this graph is that at 44km the new version is doing as much as the old one did at it's peak at 24km. That's 20% more damage than the old gun at that range. The new arties will perform at the level that prototype siege cannons are currently on TQ (second best non-faction meta type)
This next image is all the large guns together fitted on ships with a pilot that has 4 in all skills (except where 5 is a prereq) so you can see how they all compare to each other with bonuses applied. What I'd like to point out on this graph is how the new 1200mm are doing as much damage as the old 1400mm did albeit at slightly reduced range. The other item of intrest is how much closer the performance of 1400mm on a tempest is to the performance of 425mm on a Megathron while still using no cap.
Finally we come to the short range guns. 800mm are really autocannons but someone got fancy and named them repeating artillery to try and confuse me. The 20% increased tracking is a little hard to notice in the graph since I'm only using 100 m/s. I've created another graph with no damage increase and higher transversal so you can see how the tracking changes come into play.
This is the 800mm with only the better tracking applied. The transverse velocity for this graph is 500 m/s. The interesting thing to note about this graph is the guns are doing peak damage at 15km but optimal range is listed as 5k. This is because of the very long falloff and tracking is having a big influence on the damage. This type of thing isn't easy to visualize just by looking at the attributes tab of the show info window. My dream is to someday get lovely 3D graphs into a tab of the info window.
Finally we have all the short ranged high damage guns together in a one happy graph. Notice the new autocannons are better than pulse at close range and better than blaster at longer range.
I'm interested in hearing constructive feedback about projectiles and I hope this post clears up how the different guns work for some people. Like I said about the start of the post, I don't want to hear about the other weapons that are out there or about how this ship or that ship owns all the others. I know there are other things that could use tweaking here and there but for now this post is going to focus on just projectiles and other subjects will most likely be deleted from this thread because there are plenty of threads about those things already.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:34:00 -
[2]
OMG FIRST POST
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Valar CCP
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:35:00 -
[3]
I like all the pretty colored lines. ------ Valar Quality assurance department CCP games |
CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:37:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Valar CCP I like all the pretty colored lines.
TomB felt I didn't use enough colored text.
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t20
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:37:00 -
[5]
We should be testing this right now instead of replying "omg this shucks" first
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Zanthiuse
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:46:00 -
[6]
sweet! ____________________________ Waiting to cut out the deadwood. Waiting to clean up the city. Waiting to follow the worms. |
Tiammat Joreini
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:49:00 -
[7]
That last graph was done with 500 m/s transversal velocity as well right?
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:50:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Hakera on 11/01/2005 17:58:54 all looks nice, can you do some more graphs to show the 1400/1200 at 500m/s transversial compared to the other large turrets, also what were the %hit to misses from your results at the various transversial velocities. It was the missing part that lowered the DoT so much oh and can you sling on the apoc with mega beam as well as the tachyon is the odd one out.
it is nice to see the evidence that the weapon were not supposed to talk about in this thread clealry displays its massive range over the other short range weapons.
are these likely to come in next week?
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tiammat Joreini That last graph was done with 500 m/s transversal velocity as well right?
Nope, only the 800mm tracking example is 500m/s transversal.
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:57:00 -
[10]
nice post, i think this will give projectiles some more use :D 800mm's dmg is really nice, i do feel they're balanced compared to the blasters. They'll do some nice dmg for sure :D
As you don't want us to comment on ship balance, i can only say one thing, ships need to be looked at too, maybe later but at some point you'll have to fix what you broke 6 months ago when you boosted lasers and amarr ships. |
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hakera all looks nice, can you do some more graphs to show the 1400/1200 at 500m/s transversial, also what were the %hit to misses from your results at the various transversial velocities. It was the missing part that lowered the DoT so much oh and can you sling on the apoc with mega beam as well as the tachyon is the odd one out.
I figured I was going to get a lot more requests for graphs after I posted these. I'll going to hold off a bit and watch the thread a bit then let democracy rule with regard to any more graphs.
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Lihnuz
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:05:00 -
[12]
the thing whit 1400mm was (is) that you dont hitt anything, thats is (in my exprience) what make them not worth using. Are you sure that only increas in dmg to those will solve the problem whit hat gun? a smal increas to tracking or rof wold be nice to i think |
Buraken
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: CCP Hammer OMG FIRST POST
stup bumbing this old thread noob, imma call the GM's on you!
(Back to reality) I likes it but dont nerf lasers, I just got my first apoc and first set of large pulse lasers
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Hakera all looks nice, can you do some more graphs to show the 1400/1200 at 500m/s transversial, also what were the %hit to misses from your results at the various transversial velocities. It was the missing part that lowered the DoT so much oh and can you sling on the apoc with mega beam as well as the tachyon is the odd one out.
I figured I was going to get a lot more requests for graphs after I posted these. I'll going to hold off a bit and watch the thread a bit then let democracy rule with regard to any more graphs.
fair enough, I just want to see how the large weapons perform against a bs using an ab or an mwd and if you get any time, whats the dps against cruisers again at base/+ab/+mwd speeds.
any boost is better than nothing though so its all good news.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Shidhe
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:27:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Shidhe on 11/01/2005 18:49:55 Edited by: Shidhe on 11/01/2005 18:33:00 Edited by: Shidhe on 11/01/2005 18:29:44 As was said just above, I would like to see the large caliber graphs with a rather larger transversals - not interceptor levels, but how about 200-250 m/s? Transversals like these can easily arise even in BS vs BS, let alone fleet battles. If they still look good, then I could be convinced... But I am a bit worried about how crippling it would be to disrupt tracking on a Tempest with 1400s which were reliant on a few big hits and lots of misses.
And yes, it is a really good way to convey information.
I can see clearly now....
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lihnuz the thing whit 1400mm was (is) that you dont hitt anything, thats is (in my exprience) what make them not worth using. Are you sure that only increas in dmg to those will solve the problem whit hat gun? a smal increas to tracking or rof wold be nice to i think
well... if they now do 20% more damage, thats 20% more dot. it seems to me that its right that they hit rarely, but do huge damage when they do hit.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Lihnuz
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shimatu
Originally by: Lihnuz the thing whit 1400mm was (is) that you dont hitt anything, thats is (in my exprience) what make them not worth using. Are you sure that only increas in dmg to those will solve the problem whit hat gun? a smal increas to tracking or rof wold be nice to i think
well... if they now do 20% more damage, thats 20% more dot. it seems to me that its right that they hit rarely, but do huge damage when they do hit.
I might have misunderstod some of the info on the graphs, but frome what i can se, 425 rails an tychelon still do more dmg |
Shimatu
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lihnuz
Originally by: Shimatu
Originally by: Lihnuz the thing whit 1400mm was (is) that you dont hitt anything, thats is (in my exprience) what make them not worth using. Are you sure that only increas in dmg to those will solve the problem whit hat gun? a smal increas to tracking or rof wold be nice to i think
well... if they now do 20% more damage, thats 20% more dot. it seems to me that its right that they hit rarely, but do huge damage when they do hit.
I might have misunderstod some of the info on the graphs, but frome what i can se, 425 rails an tychelon still do more dmg
better peak damage, yes, but the artilleries work well over a wider range of ranges. (and btw, i've never seen the advantage of lasers portrayed so clearly as in the 2 graphs shown here...:P)
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Clipped Wings
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Henka lol mega pulses NEED to be balanced. Gankageddons doing 250+ (times 6-7) a hit VS 80% hardened armor is not fun.. not even for a blasterthron
Wasn't that _exactly_ what Hammer asked of people _not_ to write about, though?
And I will gladly add my voice to those mentioning the 1400's might benefit more from a li'l nudge of tracking...Of course, nto so we end up back in may 2004, where people regularly used them to one-shot frigates ;)
But well...the longer out you move, the less transversal will affect you. Only problem will probably then lie in not being able to dish out enough damage in time. Hm.
I foresee Tempests rising in demand again, 1 sensor booster, 2 tracking computers, and loads of damage mods. Ouch. Nasty...Just like Minmatar should be ;)
I'm dumb when it cmoes to graphs, but a thought would be that a Tempest _should_ be able to hit inside 65K, given that a Tempest should not _have_ to use a sensor booster to come into play as a damage dealer with howies...dunno.
Looks interesting, anyway :)
-Clipped Wings of LFC
"I believe in the theoretical benevolence, and practical malignity of man."
~William Hazlitt
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:41:00 -
[20]
well I am finally seeing that the bastard son of the large long range guns (1200 arty) is getting that needed boost. How about comparing it to the other "short" long-range wep classes? oh and I would like to see graphs for the dual 425 and dual 650 too. would give a clearer insight of it. -------------------
Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Lihnuz
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shimatu
Originally by: Lihnuz
Originally by: Shimatu
Originally by: Lihnuz the thing whit 1400mm was (is) that you dont hitt anything, thats is (in my exprience) what make them not worth using. Are you sure that only increas in dmg to those will solve the problem whit hat gun? a smal increas to tracking or rof wold be nice to i think
well... if they now do 20% more damage, thats 20% more dot. it seems to me that its right that they hit rarely, but do huge damage when they do hit.
I might have misunderstod some of the info on the graphs, but frome what i can se, 425 rails an tychelon still do more dmg
better peak damage, yes, but the artilleries work well over a wider range of ranges. (and btw, i've never seen the advantage of lasers portrayed so clearly as in the 2 graphs shown here...:P)
well.. its the peak that counts.. :P I wold much rather go for a sligt higher peak than a wider range of ranges. Maybe not as hig as those other 2 guns, but higer than those graphs are showing but at a sligtly longer range and not as efective at closer ranges |
Uglious
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:50:00 -
[22]
Some variations on the graphs I would like to see:
1) A breakdown of how much average DOT you can expect from a 720mm vs. a 1400mm with a 200m/s transverse velocity (I ended up mounting 720's because I get better DOT). 2) A statistical breakdown of the chances of getting a particular amount of damage on a shot with 200m/s transverse velocity at 5km, 15km, 30km and 50km ranges for particular guns, i.e. if 75% of the time it's zero, then jumps up to 500+, it would be a bit more interesting to see this breakdown 3) Redo the graphs with a MINIMUM set of skills to use each, not max. I expect some major differences to fall out as a result, with the dot of the 1400 to be much lower compared with others.
An interesting tool that would be neat to have is one that computes the expected DOT for a given gun at given ranges if you plug in the various factors, tracking, damage factor, ammo, etc. Even a spreadsheet that can be used to compute this would be nice.
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Amrotis
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:51:00 -
[23]
I agree, and think that the 1400mm needs a very slight tracking increase.
What I would also like to see is an increase of the ammo capacity of the 1400mm. You get rid of 10 EMP shells very quickly :<
Other than that, good job, and the graphs are especially useful. Would be nice to see the results of a 1400mm with a little bit of transversal velocity too :) |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.11 19:13:00 -
[24]
"I might have misunderstod some of the info on the graphs, but frome what i can se, 425 rails an tychelon still do more dmg"
Depending on the range, by the looks of the relevant graph. The 1400's start outdamaging the tachyon lasers at ~37 km range, and the rails past ~50 km. Considering the tachyons and rails are quite cap hungry when compared to the projectile turrets, the projectiles don't seem bad off overall.
Something about the 1200/1400 mm turrets, looking at the graphs... the 1200's seem to be just 1400's smaller brother, something you use only when you don't have resources for the large gun. Wonder if it wouldn't work out better to give them some damage boost and cut considerably their falloff, so that they can match (or even slightly outdamage) the 1400's at ~20 km range, but perform noticeably worse at longer ranges... giving them some sort of a niche where they're actually a preferred weapon... a middle ground between the long range artillery cannons and the short range repeating artillery. Not really sure about it though, didn't think it through enough.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.01.11 19:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: j0sephine "I might have misunderstod some of the info on the graphs, but frome what i can se, 425 rails an tychelon still do more dmg"
Depending on the range, by the looks of the relevant graph. The 1400's start outdamaging the tachyon lasers at ~37 km range, and the rails past ~50 km. Considering the tachyons and rails are quite cap hungry when compared to the projectile turrets, the projectiles don't seem bad off overall.
Something about the 1200/1400 mm turrets, looking at the graphs... the 1200's seem to be just 1400's smaller brother, something you use only when you don't have resources for the large gun. Wonder if it wouldn't work out better to give them some damage boost and cut considerably their falloff, so that they can match (or even slightly outdamage) the 1400's at ~20 km range, but perform noticeably worse at longer ranges... giving them some sort of a niche where they're actually a preferred weapon... a middle ground between the long range artillery cannons and the short range repeating artillery. Not really sure about it though, didn't think it through enough.
1200's have better tracking than 1400's btw... don't forget to add that. -------------------
Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.11 19:19:00 -
[26]
"1200's have better tracking than 1400's btw... don't forget to add that."
I believe Hammer's graphs take that into account for their damage calculation. ^^
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Rexy
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Posted - 2005.01.11 19:21:00 -
[27]
i'd also like to see some inclusion of the transveral velocity on the comparison.
also right now there is no reason to fit 1200's, not on a tempest anyway, fitting 6x1200's only leaves room for a shield/gank setup, but not armortanking. so to i agree that the 1200's need some boost to fill the niche of 20-30km where the 1400 has trouble tracking the smaller vessels and doing good damage. i cant tell from the chart but right now you are better of fitting a tracking comp II to hit those cruisers or BC's with 1400's instead.
All i want for cristmas is a typhoon with launcher rof bonus :) |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.01.11 19:23:00 -
[28]
Looks good. The only request i have, being a laser user, is how Mega Beams compare to the other guns. Tachyons aren't really comparable to the 1400mm artie and the 425mm rail.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Dylan
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Posted - 2005.01.11 19:24:00 -
[29]
The changes look good, I would like to see the 1400mm hits with some transversal thrown in, still think a slight boost in their tracking would help
overall good job, maybe I will remove the mothballs of my temp soon :)
If Jack helped you off a horse, would you help Jack off a horse?!?!?! o.0 |
Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.01.11 19:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: j0sephine "1200's have better tracking than 1400's btw... don't forget to add that."
I believe Hammer's graphs take that into account for their damage calculation. ^^
it's a valid point thou ^^'
Originally by: Rexy i'd also like to see some inclusion of the transveral velocity on the comparison.
also right now there is no reason to fit 1200's, not on a tempest anyway, fitting 6x1200's only leaves room for a shield/gank setup, but not armortanking. so to i agree that the 1200's need some boost to fill the niche of 20-30km where the 1400 has trouble tracking the smaller vessels and doing good damage. i cant tell from the chart but right now you are better of fitting a tracking comp II to hit those cruisers or BC's with 1400's instead.
hmm.... maybe a boost in the tracking of the 1200? tbh, using the graphs as a base, the 1200 would be a nice gun with a small boost in the tracking, together with the dmg boost. still I would like to see the 1200 compared with the other shorter long-range guns. that would give a better insight of it. -------------------
Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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