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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.24 17:40:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Lady Skank on 24/11/2010 17:44:43 A very interesting survey on capsuleer demographics was published recently detailing some official Concord records of ship destruction statistics which unsurprisingly prove Caldari are superior combat pilots to the Gallenteans.
Caldari pilots accounted for 35.8% of all pod pilots and accounted for 38.3% of all recorded kills for only 36.5% of all recorded losses.
Gallente pilots accounted for 20.5% of all pod pilots and accounted for 22.8% or all recorded kills but for 25.7% of all recorded losses
So proportionally not only are Caldari more willing to engage in combat to defend their interests they are also more likely to be successful, Maybe its time for the Gallente to review their pacifist ways before they become overwhelmed by a horde of hardened Caldari veterans and I do not think offering them some organic Intaki peace crisps will help them much.
The same statistics also prove that Minmatar are more successful combat pilots than Amarrians.
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StalinGrad6
Gallente Black Mesa Mavericks
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Posted - 2010.11.24 17:56:00 -
[2]
******************** A Question: If a Soldier is too scared to fight, how many people will he kill? The Answer: NONE. The Piont: Psychological Warfare. More powerful that a 3500mm cannon. |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.11.24 18:35:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 24/11/2010 18:38:13
Originally by: StalinGrad6 A Question: If a Soldier is too scared to fight, how many people will he kill? The Answer: NONE. The Piont: Psychological Warfare. More powerful that a 3500mm cannon.
Assuming that this is what you posted in order to say, pilot, are you saying that the Gallente are the masters of psychological warfare or its victims?
That said, these statistics probably don't mean quite what the OP is suggesting. As a thought, they could reflect which empires produce proportionally more or fewer industrial and combat pilots-- and what happens when the two meet.
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2010.11.24 18:36:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lady Skank Edited by: Lady Skank on 24/11/2010 17:44:43 A very interesting survey on capsuleer demographics was published recently detailing some official Concord records of ship destruction statistics which unsurprisingly prove Caldari are superior combat pilots to the Gallenteans.
Caldari pilots accounted for 35.8% of all pod pilots and accounted for 38.3% of all recorded kills for only 36.5% of all recorded losses.
Gallente pilots accounted for 20.5% of all pod pilots and accounted for 22.8% or all recorded kills but for 25.7% of all recorded losses
So proportionally not only are Caldari more willing to engage in combat to defend their interests they are also more likely to be successful, Maybe its time for the Gallente to review their pacifist ways before they become overwhelmed by a horde of hardened Caldari veterans and I do not think offering them some organic Intaki peace crisps will help them much.
The same statistics also prove that Minmatar are more successful combat pilots than Amarrians.
Validate and Certify your source or its just more white noise.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.11.24 18:40:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 24/11/2010 18:41:24
Originally by: Syn Callibri Validate and Certify your source or its just more white noise.
It's a recently-released economic report, Ms. Callibri.
Available here.
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2010.11.24 19:05:00 -
[6]
Thank you Aria...its a shame that the one making these claims needs you to support her own opinions.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.11.24 19:12:00 -
[7]
As Ms. Jenneth points out, without supporting data such as type of ship lost by race, we could also just as easily claim the Caldari are a bunch of cowards who spend all their time shooting at mining vessels and industrial ships so they won't actually risk taking a loss.
Neither of these "facts" are supported by the available evidence. --Vel
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.24 20:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: De'Veldrin As Ms. Jenneth points out, without supporting data such as type of ship lost by race, we could also just as easily claim the Caldari are a bunch of cowards who spend all their time shooting at mining vessels and industrial ships so they won't actually risk taking a loss.
Neither of these "facts" are supported by the available evidence.
Considering all but one class of ship in the top twenty lost vessels is an Industrial ship and only 2,984 of those where lost its highly likely that those statistics reflect that all of the destroyed ships where at least in theory combat capable.
Unless you are suggesting of course that the majority of Gallente undergo capsule training only to do the job that any Navy rookie should be capable of and shoot the crew piloted outlaw faction vessels yet fail miserably when they come face to face with another capsuleer?
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2010.11.24 20:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lady Skank
Originally by: De'Veldrin As Ms. Jenneth points out, without supporting data such as type of ship lost by race, we could also just as easily claim the Caldari are a bunch of cowards who spend all their time shooting at mining vessels and industrial ships so they won't actually risk taking a loss.
Neither of these "facts" are supported by the available evidence.
Considering all but one class of ship in the top twenty lost vessels is an Industrial ship and only 2,984 of those where lost its highly likely that those statistics reflect that all of the destroyed ships where at least in theory combat capable.
Unless you are suggesting of course that the majority of Gallente undergo capsule training only to do the job that any Navy rookie should be capable of and shoot the crew piloted outlaw faction vessels yet fail miserably when they come face to face with another capsuleer?
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Akrasjel Lanate
Gallente Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.11.24 20:13:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lady Skank Edited by: Lady Skank on 24/11/2010 17:44:43 ...Maybe its time for the Gallente to review their pacifist ways before they become overwhelmed by a horde of hardened Caldari veterans and I do not think offering them some organic Intaki peace crisps will help them much.
The same statistics also prove that Minmatar are more successful combat pilots than Amarrians.
That's only statistics... We are not afraid of the Caldari... Why would we..
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Dilaro thagriin
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Posted - 2010.11.24 20:19:00 -
[11]
while these statistics may be right... perhaps your thinking is a little skewed...
lets see shall we...
the statistics as you have shown them, show that, a larger force, has caused more casualties than a smaller one, and have lost less ships than the smaller one.
you speak of proportions. but seem willing to take these points wholly out of context, just to make the caldari look better....
so yes, capsule tech was granted to the caldari first... woohoo... and you have more people who have become capsuleers... yay... but really, these statistics in no way prove the abilities of any of the capsuleer pilots in the cluster.
all they show is ship loss.
if you want to see who the best pilots are, may i suggest you arrange a fight where the numbers would be even, and the situation controlled??
if the point of your 'analysis' there was not just some nationalistic claim on how great the caldari are... though, i personally doubt it was anything more.
fly safe ms Skank.
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente Eleutherian Guard
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Posted - 2010.11.24 20:39:00 -
[12]
The Federal Defence Union has been the most deadliest militia in terms of ship kills since its creation, though it recently looks to be overtaken by the 24th.
We've always been outnumbered by over a third of our numbers.
That speaks for itself. ------------ Luminaire General Seriphyn Inhonores Eleutherian Guard [FDU] |
Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2010.11.24 21:12:00 -
[13]
The Minmatar are the most feared race in the cluster, why else would the Amarrian Hard-liners and thier Caldari lap-dogs try so hard to defame us...call us inferior...mock us and try as hard as they can to keep us under thier boot? Why else would the Federation be so glad to have us at thier side in battle?
...just thought I'd state an opinion as biased as the OP.
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Dilaro thagriin
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Posted - 2010.11.24 21:22:00 -
[14]
Psst.. Syn.. the first message within this particular IGS thread actually stated that our brave militia was performing better than the amarrians...
and so they should.
soon, we shall walk free of the valley.
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.24 21:23:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Lady Skank on 24/11/2010 21:25:03
Originally by: Dilaro thagriin while these statistics may be right... perhaps your thinking is a little skewed...
lets see shall we...
the statistics as you have shown them, show that, a larger force, has caused more casualties than a smaller one, and have lost less ships than the smaller one.
you speak of proportions. but seem willing to take these points wholly out of context, just to make the caldari look better....
so yes, capsule tech was granted to the caldari first... woohoo... and you have more people who have become capsuleers... yay... but really, these statistics in no way prove the abilities of any of the capsuleer pilots in the cluster.
all they show is ship loss.
if you want to see who the best pilots are, may i suggest you arrange a fight where the numbers would be even, and the situation controlled??
if the point of your 'analysis' there was not just some nationalistic claim on how great the caldari are... though, i personally doubt it was anything more.
fly safe ms Skank.
I think you are mistaken as to exactly what the statistics show as its not about the raw amount of kills or losses its about the proportion, if you re-read them you and consider that the Gallente are responsible for a disproportionate amount of ship losses for the amount of Gallente pilots yet the Caldari proportionately get more kills and suffer less losses than Gallente pilots.
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2010.11.24 21:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dilaro thagriin Psst.. Syn.. the first message within this particular IGS thread actually stated that our brave militia was performing better than the amarrians...
and so they should.
soon, we shall walk free of the valley.
Pssst, Dilaro...it doesn't matter...the OP is drawing conclusions that aren't represented in the data. Besides, that part of it is common knowledge...we don't need "statistics" to figure that one out.
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Dilaro thagriin
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Posted - 2010.11.24 21:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lady Skank I think you are mistaken as to exactly what the statistics show as its no about the raw amount of kills or losses its about the proportion, if you re-read them you and consider that the Gallente are responsible for a disproportionate amount of ship losses for the amount of Gallente pilots yet the Caldari proportionately get more kills and suffer less losses than Gallente pilots.
still you take the statistics out of context..
an outnumbered force is almost certain to lose more ships.
have i spelled it our clearly enough for you?
as i said. if you wanted to see who the better pilots were, you would have to arrange a controlled event. with even numbers and skill levels on both sides.
though, it would seem that is not your intention.
merely claiming that a people are better due to the fact that they have taken down more ships during an imbalanced conflict does nothing to prove that the 'winning' side is better, merely more numerous.
if a group of 8 frigates squares off against a group of 12, even if everything else is equal, then the 'better' side, as you would put it, would lose less ships. they can bring more firepower to bear at any one time.
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.24 21:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Syn Callibri
Originally by: Dilaro thagriin Psst.. Syn.. the first message within this particular IGS thread actually stated that our brave militia was performing better than the amarrians...
and so they should.
soon, we shall walk free of the valley.
Pssst, Dilaro...it doesn't matter...the OP is drawing conclusions that aren't represented in the data. Besides, that part of it is common knowledge...we don't need "statistics" to figure that one out.
The data is well..... the data and I cannot see how my conclusion is not represented by the data when all I have done is basically quoted that data and it shows that Gallente pilots on average tend to lose more ships and get less kills when coming face to face with another capsuleer.
You can try and spin this anyway you want but its the truth, if you find the truth so offensive maybe you could convince fellow Gallenteans that they need to shape up and leave crewed pirate faction vessels alone and stop offering to meet enemies over a glass of wheat juice whilst swapping sandal recycling techniques and get some combat training.
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Dilaro thagriin
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Posted - 2010.11.24 21:42:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Dilaro thagriin on 24/11/2010 21:43:08 fellow gallenteans??
the data and i???
the data is well???
ok... you have answered my questions now.
burdy boingy biggledy boo
perhaps you understood that last part too... i surely did not.
.......
psst Syn... she seems to think we're gallente.... odd that
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.24 21:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dilaro thagriin she seems to think we're gallente.... odd that
I thought Syn was based on her persistent white knighting, but I have edited my statement. |
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iyammarrok
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Posted - 2010.11.24 22:09:00 -
[21]
ok, my turn.
i am Gallente by the way, so yes. this is slightly biased. but, as pilot skank, (nice name by the way), was quick to point out, numbers can't lie.
simple mathematics... should prove easy enough
lets say that each of the frigates in the situation mr Thagriin showed, has an ability to deal out 2 damage per cycle, and can withstand 10 damage before being destroyed.
we shall also say, for ease, that they can repair 1 damage per cycle.
in a one on one engagement in this situation, the first person to shoot would, in general win the combat.
now. the aforementioned fleets, 10 vs 15 frigates, if all other variables are the same for each ship, well, lets take this cycle by cycle shall we?
cycle fleet 1 fleet 2 1 deals 20 damage deals 30 damage loses 2 ships, loses 1 ship
2 deals 16 damage deals 28 damage loses 3 ships loses 2 ships
3 deals 10 damage deals 24 damage loses 2 ships loses 1 ship
4 deals 6 damage deals 22 damage loses 2 ships loses no ships
combat ends.
so, given that the only difference in this was fleet size... and not pilot skill. your idea seems to be that the larger force would have lost proportionally MORE ships than the smaller.... lets see.
fleet 1 fleet 2 10 ships (pilots) 15 ships 4 kills 10 kills 10 losses 4 losses
i think, using such a simple model, should help to prove that the statistics are wrong... very wrong...
statistics can say anything you want them to say..
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.24 23:57:00 -
[22]
I really like the way people are trying to spin around hard data by attempting to muddy the waters with things that just don't matter as the numbers don't lie, they are what they are.
Would you try to claim that 10 is less than 5? because that is what you are doing.
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snake driver
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.25 00:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lady Skank I really like the way people are trying to spin around hard data by attempting to muddy the waters with things that just don't matter as the numbers don't lie, they are what they are.
Would you try to claim that 10 is less than 5? because that is what you are doing.
They are not arguing the data. The data is what it is. They are arguing with your interpretation of the data by presenting alternate means by which the same data could be produced without dictating that the Gallente are inferior pilots.
Never mind that the data is largely meaningless. It is to vague and free of context to draw conclusions from. The only assertions that can be made from the data are exactly what the data state: Caldari pilots have a greater ratio of killing hits (a largely meaningless statistic) relative to the number of pilots than the Gallente, while the Gallente have a greater ratio of losses (a slightly more meaningful statistic, but still worthless without greater context).
These data are not sufficient to support your claim that Gallente are inferior pilots.
That is all. Whether they actually are inferior is not my concern - they may very well be. But the limited and context-free data we have been provided does not necessarily support that conclusion.
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.25 01:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: snake driver
Originally by: Lady Skank I really like the way people are trying to spin around hard data by attempting to muddy the waters with things that just don't matter as the numbers don't lie, they are what they are.
Would you try to claim that 10 is less than 5? because that is what you are doing.
They are not arguing the data. The data is what it is. They are arguing with your interpretation of the data by presenting alternate means by which the same data could be produced without dictating that the Gallente are inferior pilots.
Never mind that the data is largely meaningless. It is to vague and free of context to draw conclusions from. The only assertions that can be made from the data are exactly what the data state: Caldari pilots have a greater ratio of killing hits (a largely meaningless statistic) relative to the number of pilots than the Gallente, while the Gallente have a greater ratio of losses (a slightly more meaningful statistic, but still worthless without greater context).
These data are not sufficient to support your claim that Gallente are inferior pilots.
That is all. Whether they actually are inferior is not my concern - they may very well be. But the limited and context-free data we have been provided does not necessarily support that conclusion.
So Caldari are more likely to be at least involved in a kill, ok I can see that but the numbers are consistent and don't appear to be the result of any anomalies, surely if they where generated so randomly there would be no real pattern and include a huge variance with no consistency yet the two races that have the lowest proportion of losses have the highest proportion of final blows.
Even disregarding kills you can see by losses alone that Gallente pilots account for a disproportionate amount of losses showing that they are more likely to loose a ship in combat and due to this fact it makes it more probable that the data regarding final blows is also accurate.
This combination soundly support my conclusion.
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snake driver
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.25 02:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lady Skank
So Caldari are more likely to be at least involved in a kill,
No. They are more likely to make the final hit that destroys a ship. When there are often dozens of people involved in a kill, this statistic becomes less meaningful. What you say may be true, but it is not necessarily what the data say.
Quote: ok I can see that but the numbers are consistent and don't appear to be the result of any anomalies, surely if they where generated so randomly there would be no real pattern and include a huge variance with no consistency yet the two races that have the lowest proportion of losses have the highest proportion of final blows.
Even disregarding kills you can see by losses alone that Gallente pilots account for a disproportionate amount of losses showing that they are more likely to loose a ship in combat and due to this fact it makes it more probable that the data regarding final blows is also accurate.
This combination soundly support my conclusion.
Again, we do not have the context to support this. I'm sure if you looked at the statistics of a group like the Privateers (or their new selves, the Orphanage) they would appear to be immensely talented combat pilots. However, if you ask just about anyone, few outside this number will tell you that's the case - the statistics alone to not give us the context to understand what's going on.
The data supports the following conclusions: Caldari pilots are more likely to fire the killing shot. Gallente pilots are more prone to being destroyed. The data do not give sufficient context to determine why this is the case - you are concluding that it is because the Gallente are inferior combat pilots. While this is a natural assumption, the fact that there are other possible explanations of the data means that more information is needed before such a conclusion can be drawn scientifically.
You are, of course, welcome to believe whatever you wish about the abilities of Gallente pilots. But there are far too many unknown variables in combat for us to make such sweeping judgments based on so little data with even less context.
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.25 02:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: snake driver The data supports the following conclusions: Caldari pilots are more likely to fire the killing shot. Gallente pilots are more prone to being destroyed. The data do not give sufficient context to determine why this is the case - you are concluding that it is because the Gallente are inferior combat pilots. While this is a natural assumption, the fact that there are other possible explanations of the data means that more information is needed before such a conclusion can be drawn scientifically.
So the people who die more frequently and destroy less ships are not performing worse in combat? if someone mines more ore in less time are they not better miners? if an industrialist can create more produce and reduce costs further are they not more successful?
The only rebuttal anybody has come up with is to reply to clear and reliable data with anecdotes or spin, the statistics cannot be disputed so all anyone can do is try and claim that they mean nothing.
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snake driver
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.25 03:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lady Skank So the people who die more frequently and destroy less ships are not performing worse in combat? if someone mines more ore in less time are they not better miners? if an industrialist can create more produce and reduce costs further are they not more successful?
The only rebuttal anybody has come up with is to reply to clear and reliable data with anecdotes or spin, the statistics cannot be disputed so all anyone can do is try and claim that they mean nothing.
The nature of diverse fleets means that some people are required to fly ships that get destroyed more frequently while other people choose to fly ships that are more survivable and get kills - both are required in a balanced fleet. Perhaps the Gallentean sense of gung-ho makes them more suited to flying ships like interdictors which die frequently but are required in order for the Caldari pilots to get their nice shiny kills. This would result in skewed statistics without there necessarily being a gap in combat ability.
In short, combat is significantly more complicated than mining, as you compared it. You cannot draw conclusions regarding someone's superiority as a combat pilot based on such simple statistics. Period.
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iyammarrok
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Posted - 2010.11.25 03:38:00 -
[28]
ms skank.
your line that the statistics cannot be disproven can be simply and easily disputed...
is you ask any statistician what the word statistics means. they will say one of two things.
either A) 'Lies' or B) 'what do you want it to mean?'
secondly, the statistics do not only refer to combat vessels. need i remind you that the ship that is flown most often in the cluster is a hulk... with the retriever taking a place in the top 10 most flown ships.
these all count towards the kill counts you claim are proof that gallente combat pilots are inferior.
how many hulks, covetors, retrievers, iterons and other such vessels are counted as 'combat kills' by you when viewing those statistics?
as Snake said, the data from which you have made such a sweeping statement is flawed. thus, without context, and a major sifting of the data that has been presented, to remove non-combat kills, nullsec kills, kills by non-caldari, concord interventions, and all manner of other reasons why a ship might be lost. your claim that we gallente are worse pilots is... laughable to say the least.
i thank snake, for trying, using different words, and somewhat better punctuation, to explain the very thing i have been trying to point out. but it would seem Ms skank has no intention of listenting to intelligent argument, and is going to ignore everything that is said by people who don't agree with her.
anyways, i have no wish to continue this, never have liked talking to a ferrocrete wall.
i have shown, using a simple mathematical model, and various logical arguments, the flaws in your claims, if you refuse to see the truth, it cannot be shown to you.
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.11.25 05:08:00 -
[29]
iyammarrok the statistics I quoted purely concern combat nothing else, the report contains many other topics like the details of the ship classes lost and the amount of ships constructed and flown but the case I present here covers only the proportional kills and losses.
Perhaps you might pursue the document yourself before making assumptions as to its contents, you never know it may help you or anyone construct an argument instead of trying to rebut facts with anecdotes.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2010.11.25 05:43:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lady Skank Caldari pilots accounted for 35.8% of all pod pilots and accounted for 38.3% of all recorded kills
Gallente pilots accounted for 20.5% of all pod pilots and accounted for 22.8% or all recorded kills
Silly troll, your math is fail.
Caldari only kill a measly 7% more than their population. The Gallente however kill a stunning 11% more in proportion to their population.
Which means pound for pound, Gallente are actually more effective.
Taxman IX: Risky Venture
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