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Admiral Man'treb
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Posted - 2010.11.25 02:21:00 -
[1]
Got my first mach today, already fitted it out like this:
7x 800mm II
1x Meta 13 booster 1x Boost Amp II 1x Invul II 1x Misson specific Hard 1x Meta 14 ab
4x Rep Fleet Gyro 3x TE II
So, I've had a bit of training wheels with the baby varg setup from battleclinic.
Just wanted so advice from people who have been flying this alot, i'll be doing mostly angel mission but will prolly get a MHH or two here and there...So anything you've noticed to be particularly watchful while flying this baby?
Never flown a mission ship before with an ab, what is your usual orbit ?
Thanks for any insight or advise, appreciate it :)
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Aqriue
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Posted - 2010.11.25 02:37:00 -
[2]
My mach is armor tanked (going to turn it into an arttillery ship with shields eventually), but even using a vargur with tech 2 shield hardeners and cheaper pirate faction booster/Ab you don't need meta 13/14 for missions. As for using an orbit, you don't. You will kill most ships very quickly before you actually get in orbit (800mm fire into deep fall off, who needs optimal orbits? ) and I usually just point myself towards the next gate, sit still, or align incase I trigger multiple waves at once. Only time I ever had to get in close is during Serp Blockade, 6x sensor damp really sucks but I tried out a MWD for the first time with a friend doing it in a kronos. It was fun!
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Lord Zekk
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2010.11.25 02:55:00 -
[3]
You might want to rig it with:
3x CCC
or
2x CCC I 1x CCC II
The fit looks good.
Not sure what booster you're using but the Gist B type XL is what I use and it works like a charm. I'm lazy and I use 2x Invul II and that works fine for me. I've only had trouble a couple of times when I aggroed the entire room and I still made it out alive.
If you have the extra ISK invest in a couple of Navy/DG invuls. That is another 700 mil (which you don't have to spend) but it will save you the effort of changing hardeners and keep your investment safer or maybe just a bigger target for suicide gankers.
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Moose Burger
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Posted - 2010.11.25 10:47:00 -
[4]
I use cap boosteR + caldari navy invul + boost amp + XL booster + Afterburner in my mids.
Cap booster allows my rig to not be CCC. i use T2 rate of fire rig instead.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.11.25 11:23:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/11/2010 11:24:27
Quote:
You might want to rig it with:
3x CCC
or
2x CCC I 1x CCC II
I don't see why someone using THE gankboat fitted as gankboat would want to put rigs that go against the setup. I'd see ambits, aerator etc as vastly superior.
Another thing to the OP instead: beware spending too much in high meta stuff and make yourself a ripe fruit to gankers. Expecially with a weak-ish gank setup.
Finally, about the orbiting: some NPCs change behavior if you have ACs and not arties and they switch themselves to orbit mode (instead of head ramming you like usual).
Therefore you won't have to orbit, but you will be orbited. In some missions you can avoid NPCs going away by not locking them till the last moment, in many others they will still try orbiting. I.e. you'll see orbiting by some higher bounty rats in L4 AE, while mundane commanders and generals will still approach.
A tactic I tend to use is this:
1) As you enter the area with known orbiters, point and start going to them. Since they orbit you can save some time by anticipating their next trajectory ("lead"). 2) Mop up all frigs with webs (your real enemies when you have a gank AC setup) both with ACs (till they come too close, then switch) and drones. 3) At this point you should have cleaned webbers. Kill the BCs, they will almost always come close and to a gank boat their lower but frequent damage is better being removed fast. 4) At any time a BS goes beyond 30km, AB to it so it does not go at 50-60km and require more ammo. 5) In case the escaping BSs are triggers you can easily bring them and up to 3 others to half hull damage, then dispatch the orbiting BS and immediately finish the others in few seconds, before a next wave arrives. This works very well in AE.
Last but not least: a gank boat can easily become a dead boat if it runs out of cap (it's why people use cap charges even for PvE) therefore:
- avoid ACs in neuting ships missions (Quafe ultra I-don't-recall-its-name-mission).
- avoid staying webbed
- avoid warping out while not aligned and webbed (try it you'll see what I am talking about, no it's not like in PvP).
- train drones range for those cases a BS could get far or to kill webbing frigs from more afar.
- do a dozen of easy missions before trying glass cannon setups where you could get your butt handed back to you.
- train overheating, with high meta shields it's like god mode, I easily tank whole Serp WC 4 rooms with a bit of that.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 11:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/11/2010 11:24:27
Quote:
You might want to rig it with:
3x CCC
or
2x CCC I 1x CCC II
I don't see why someone using THE gankboat fitted as gankboat would want to put rigs that go against the setup. I'd see ambits, aerator etc as vastly superior.
By the time you've fitted 4 gyros and 3 tracking enhancers, the marginal benefit from a projectile rig is very small.
I concurr with the CCC rig recommendation.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.11.25 12:25:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Moose Burger I use cap boosteR + caldari navy invul + boost amp + XL booster + Afterburner in my mids.
Cap booster allows my rig to not be CCC. i use T2 rate of fire rig instead.
hell yea! (although I just use t2 invluns, with as much gank as the macha throws out really don't need faction invluns)
and t2 rof rig for the mother ****ing win
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/11/2010 11:24:27
Quote:
You might want to rig it with:
3x CCC
or
2x CCC I 1x CCC II
I don't see why someone using THE gankboat fitted as gankboat would want to put rigs that go against the setup. I'd see ambits, aerator etc as vastly superior.
By the time you've fitted 4 gyros and 3 tracking enhancers, the marginal benefit from a projectile rig is very small.
I concurr with the CCC rig recommendation.
I don't agree, I have two identical BS, one with projectile rigs and one with CCC and the former performs better enough that a difference can be experienced. What do you do with CCC on a boat that kills things so fast sometimes I forget to turn on hardeners and don't notice the difference. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:25:00 -
[9]
Lets be honest here. If you think you need your tank to last longer than 3-4 minutes in this boat with the booster on constantly then you're doing it wrong. If you haven't killed the major damage dealers(BSs) in that time then something is wrong.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mr LaForge Lets be honest here. If you think you need your tank to last longer than 3-4 minutes in this boat with the booster on constantly then you're doing it wrong. If you haven't killed the major damage dealers(BSs) in that time then something is wrong.
Exactly.
With a regular Malestrom and without the meta 13 stuff, L4 AE room 1 takes about 6-7 minutes and this covers all the waves, room takes 12 mins tops and so on. Figures with a Mach with that stuff.
Missions like Damsel or Slavers part 2 tick once and with time to spare. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:51:00 -
[11]
Large booster - I tend to use Pith B -, 3 hardeners, prop mod of choice for the mission, and t2 RoF rig. 4th RF gyro is a bit of a waste but I guess if you have the spare cash, whatever. Don't really need a prop mod unless you're in a mission with really large rooms tbh.
Use an autotargetter in the util high, extra hardware targets + it'll save you some clicking sometimes if you actually turn it on, too.
Most of the time you won't even touch the booster with 3 hardeners on. I've been tempted at times to convert mine to pure buffer.
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De BuG2
Gallente Rise on Chaos
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Posted - 2010.11.25 17:39:00 -
[12]
[Machariel, New Setup 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Salvager I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5
This is the setup i use on my mach, blows through any LvL 4 no prob and is completley over tanked aswell if you dont mind spending abit then you could fit it like this.
--------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Enduros
Desard's Nation Cha0s Theory
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:37:00 -
[13]
Mach NEEDS a prop module.
Only gun rig you might stick on a mach is a Burst Aerator II. It takes 250 calibration, adds like 60 dps. Mach has 350 calibration. After you put the rig in there you have 100 left. There's nothing useful to put in there for 100 calibration.
PS empty rigs slots creep me out. - This one time, at gate camp, I shot a shuttle... |
Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.25 23:34:00 -
[14]
There's a few useful other rigs; I tend to favour a t1 Therm resist rig for angel space, or you could fit a targeting range rig. There's a couple of others that will squeeze in.
I always fit a prop mod, but it doesn't get much use. The hull itself is pretty fast...
As for the OP's "how do you fly it", I have no idea what you're going to orbit because it'll blow things up too fast to get into an orbit. I just manually fly mine to try and keep in a nice progression from one rat to the next.
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Zekyll
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Posted - 2010.11.26 00:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Malcanis
By the time you've fitted 4 gyros and 3 tracking enhancers, the marginal benefit from a projectile rig is very small.
I concurr with the CCC rig recommendation.
I don't agree, I have two identical BS, one with projectile rigs and one with CCC and the former performs better enough that a difference can be experienced. What do you do with CCC on a boat that kills things so fast sometimes I forget to turn on hardeners and don't notice the difference.
Well, I don't agree with this. After stacking penalties the rigs only give you about +1% dps or +1.5% falloff/tracking (assuming you also have 1 tracking comp, which you should). But better cap output will allow you to always shoot triggers first and take all the agro in a room, giving the enemies more time to approach you. Especially handy against angels because the battleships orbit near.
And if you still have so much tank that you don't need to permarun the shield booster, change hardeners to something else. Like painters or webbers so you don't have to worry about getting too close to enemies and you can always be approaching them at full speed with AB on. And against serpentis you really need sensor boosters, and ECCM against guristas.
If you really wanna swap the CCCs to something else, put polycarbons on it. You'll save in align and travel times, and because you can get closer to enemies faster, you'll put out more dps too.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:17:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zekyll
After stacking penalties the rigs only give you about +1% dps or +1.5% falloff/tracking (assuming you also have 1 tracking comp, which you should). But better cap output will allow you to always shoot triggers first and take all the agro in a room, giving the enemies more time to approach you. Especially handy against angels because the battleships orbit near
Not sure to need a tracking comp, the only stuff that needs it in a gank setup are frigs and they die at 16 or so km away. This gives plenty of time to finish the usual max 1-2 webbers, for the rest T2 drones are more than enough. For max multitasking it's necessary to split DPS away off frigs asap and to me it's getting more common that I finish 1-2 BCs with drones as well so that I finish killing the last BS at the same time the last BC dies and drones (nice DPS) never sit idle.
At the same time, I rarely use cap. If it's the case, I overheat. The repair cost usually stays below 20k ISK per mission where heating reached 5-7% tops.
I value the 1% more DPS, it's equivalent to more defense for the ship and less time waste.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Moose Burger
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:47:00 -
[17]
the T2 ROF rig gives 50+ dps.
Now lets assume The most powerful Machariel = the most powerful machariel - 50 dps.---(1)
Let the most powerful machariel = X.
Now X=X-50. moreover by (1) X-50=(X-50)-50-- (2) moreover by (1) and (2) X=(X-50)-50
however by (2) X-50=(X-50)-50 hence X=(X-50)-50-50
.... etc etc
therefore X = X-watever Therefore, by your statement that a machariel with 50 dps wont mission any faster, it is argued by this statement that a 0 dps machariel missions as fast as a 1200 dps machariel, this contradicts common sense
QED
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zekyll
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Malcanis
By the time you've fitted 4 gyros and 3 tracking enhancers, the marginal benefit from a projectile rig is very small.
I concurr with the CCC rig recommendation.
I don't agree, I have two identical BS, one with projectile rigs and one with CCC and the former performs better enough that a difference can be experienced. What do you do with CCC on a boat that kills things so fast sometimes I forget to turn on hardeners and don't notice the difference.
Well, I don't agree with this. After stacking penalties the rigs only give you about +1% dps or +1.5% falloff/tracking (assuming you also have 1 tracking comp, which you should). But better cap output will allow you to always shoot triggers first and take all the agro in a room, giving the enemies more time to approach you. Especially handy against angels because the battleships orbit near.
a burst aerator II gives a ~6.5% dps increase, however I will agree that after fitting 3x te fitting an amibt rig is a bit silly. and well you can still kill the triggers first and then finish the mission faster because you do more dps
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Mavnas
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:47:00 -
[19]
The Rigs boost damage by more than that since their bonus is the biggest. When you tack on a rig to a boat with 4 gyros, the rig gives full bonus, while each gyro now gives a bit less. (Remember stacking penalty hits mods in order of bonus size.)
So:
10%, 8.7%, 5.7%, 2.8% becomes 15%, 8.7%, 5.7%, 2.8%, 1%
Not quite useless, but I'd almost say if you want to slap on some rigs to boost DPS, take off the 4th damage mod.
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.11.26 18:26:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Mr LaForge on 26/11/2010 18:27:01 Since rigs are being talked about now I'll go back to my comment above in regards to CCCs. Aside from that there are more useful rigs than CCCs. I find the DPS, damage, and falloff rigs to be "why bother" bordering on useless because of stacking penalties. I will say though that if the T2 Burst rig's calibration was lowered by at least 50 or so I'd put one on in a hearbeat.
Shield Extender rigs would be a welcome addition as it would mean less use of the shield booster. Less use=more cap for later if such an emergency comes up. It also gives a bit more passive regen which is always good but the point here is that you should only be using your shield booster in an emergency as the Mach will rip through any damage dealers with ease.
Speed and agility rigs are certainly useful but the Mach is already very good in that regard as it is basically a cruiser when it turns and speeds off.
So what are the best rigs? Who knows but there are certainly some better choices.
Oh and to the people that devote 4 of the 5 mid slots to tank on this boat. Why?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:25:00 -
[21]
Shield rigs add to sig radius, and the Mach gets a nice damage reduction from its relatively small sig and high speed. 2 CCC + 1 Polycarb would work pretty well, and build on that strength.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:33:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Mr LaForge on 26/11/2010 19:33:37 Yes, this is true but if you're at least trained the skill to 4 and are using your afterburner the added sig doesn't do that much and you actually get more EHP out of the deal.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:55:00 -
[23]
I used mwd on my fit so i could get to rats faster and dont waste time in falloff. Worked very well in ae - like 15m better time than much better skilled nightmare.
Also i dont think rigs will make big difference, but id say - go for damage.
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Lady Arroway
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Posted - 2010.11.27 14:09:00 -
[24]
i do missions with this beast, just amazing
[Machariel, ratting ] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
100MN Afterburner II Pith A-Type Explosion Dampening Field Ballistic Deflection Field II Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L Salvager I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Valkyrie II x5 Warrior II x5
P.S. angels start to cry when i warp in their pocket :D
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Amarr Fluffer
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Posted - 2010.11.28 00:54:00 -
[25]
My current setup:
7x 800mm II
DG XL SB 2x Invul II Core x-type 100mn AB Heavy cap booster II
Overdrive II 3x Tracking Enhancer II 3x Republic fleet Gyro
CCC I Burst Aerator I Core Defense Cap safeguard I
just orbit at 30km and shoot. If your skills are good you should get 800-850 dps at 30km. There is only one or two missions like Smash the Supplier which can be tricky due to the large numbers of NPC's, which I use a arty Maelstrom for.
I havent pimped much beyond this setup because im a little paranoid about being ganked and quite frankly, you dont need it. Id rather spend my money to go blow stuff up.
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