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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:40:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Grimpak on 26/11/2010 11:41:14
Originally by: Klatho Cron @Grimpack: Someone did the maths long ago. 3 years and advanced learnings V start to pay off.
yeah, by the time they got out, three years wasn't enough for me, and I had a good and solid enough base already that I didn't really need more faster training. Also, who plans to play a game for three more years? I do skill planing for, at most, one year. if I don't get a payoff for it in said timestamp, then it's a waste of time.
Quote: We all were pretty happy with what we got. Why change it ?
hell, I have played this game for seven years and even I concur that the learning skills were pretty much a needless, minddumbing chore. if any, you people all just want for the noobs to feel the the stupidity of training a skill that is only needed to train other skills.
and it's Gimpak ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:54:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Klatho Cron Yes it is personal opinion. But im right. And you know it too.
In no way is this hubris, no sir. Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Sic et non. |
Kierlana Vosk
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:54:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Klatho Cron
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Klatho Cron And, im not mad cause of me losing my advantage, but im mad cause in future there will be no descision to be made.
Learning skills were a decision, but they were never an interesting decision. They were never a question of intelligence, they were a question of endurance. The people who "won" learning skills weren't smart, they just had a higher pain tolerance.
Shouldnt that be rewarded ?
And everyone who quitted eve because of learnings, wasnt worth this game anyway. You all know it.
No. Also, the 'I'm better than them' is not a valid argument.
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 12:35:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Klatho Cron EVE grows since ever, and no other MMO in this world has had a constant growth over such a long period of time.
I hesitate to say this, but WoW has had a far greater growth over a shorter time span. Originally by: Klatho Cron We all were pretty happy with what we got. Why change it ?
Because I'm not happy with learning skills. I never was. Very few people are. Many people are exceptionally unhappy about them. I put up with them on the grounds that Eve was exceptionally appealing to me, but I like Eve in spite of learning skills, not because of them. Originally by: Klatho Cron Why do we want more players, when the server cant even handle half of the actual population ?
Because newbies are the lifeblood of an MMO. Any MMO. Online games constantly have people leaving. The reason the subscriber base has been growing is simply because people are joining faster than they're leaving. In order for growth to continue, we need more newbies coming than leaving. Now it's true that there are architectural problems with Eve, but without newbies, we're dead.
Besides, more players means more money means more staff means better systems means a more enjoyable game.
That's the theory, anyway.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.26 12:37:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Grimpak if any, you people all just want for the noobs to feel the the stupidity of training a skill that is only needed to train other skills.
I've been here for nearly five years and I'm still training skills that I only need to train other skills. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Troll Bridgington
SWARTA Mostly Clueless
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Posted - 2010.11.26 12:40:00 -
[36]
I love expansion time. So much whine. Whine is good, but we need more cheese.
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 13:06:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Grimpak if any, you people all just want for the noobs to feel the the stupidity of training a skill that is only needed to train other skills.
I've been here for nearly five years and I'm still training skills that I only need to train other skills.
Just curious, how many of those skills have absolutely zero affect on your character's abilities?
I hear some people quoting advanced spaceship command 5..
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.26 13:16:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Just curious, how many of those skills have absolutely zero affect on your character's abilities?
Absolutely zero? None probably. But I don't care about the effect. I'll happily do without it. But for some reason I must train it anyway, so that I can train another skill! -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 13:22:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
..hubris,..
hubris..had to look that up. Nice one. Me rikey. And no it isnt. If you like ****, its still ****. The freedom of personal taste doesnt exist, as you probably were told.
Originally by: Black Dranzer I hesitate to say this, but WoW has had a far greater growth over a shorter time span.
So, you would like eve to be like wow ? gtfo. srsly.
Originally by: Grimpak and it's Gimpak
I guess you mean Grimpak Anyway, sorry for that. And yes, i actually think that im still around this game in 3 years. So why shouldnt i correspond to taht correctly ?
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 13:39:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Grimpak on 26/11/2010 13:39:53
Originally by: Klatho Cron
Originally by: Grimpak and it's Gimpak
I guess you mean Grimpak Anyway, sorry for that. And yes, i actually think that im still around this game in 3 years. So why shouldnt i correspond to taht correctly ?
****. nice way of shooting myself in the foot with my character's name there, eh?
anyways, I still don't see why I was wrong on not maxing out my learning skills when it would give me such a diminute advantage that only gets visible if you spend a very large ammount of actual time to reach that point. specially when anything can happen in said ammount of time. I mean, it's good to plan to the future, but this is a game, and 3 years of RL time is alot and many things can change in that space of time, thus why 5/4 + 5 is pretty much the optimal for any average player, since maxing them all out you can only get the advantage over 36mil SP later. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:06:00 -
[41]
Klatho:
You are my hero...
1. The Math:
Adv Learnings V is about (a little more even) 600K SP per skills.
IF you train a Skill with this attribute as primary, you gain 1.1 SP/minute more...
That is 378.79 days per Skill....so you have to train 4.15 years in total to have them not pay off but EVEN OUT! AND you need to train 378 days worth of skills where the Attribute is primary...it doubles for skills where it is secondary.
2.What is wrong with you? Yes you are a great guy to have traiend them to V/V )Presence to IV). That earned you 1.5SP/Minute more than the 5/4 guys like me. and NOW you get to spend 2.8m SP more than the 5/4 guys to allocate.
So you had your damn advantage already. Whata re you whining about?
Getting rid of Learning skill is NOT "dumbing down" because: The skills weren't SMART in the first place. It was a thing of "ok train months now to get more SP in the long run, or train Ship/Weapon/Industry skills now at a freaking slow pace but be able to PLAY at least?"
Sure it was a choice you could make. But as you said: "V/V Presence IV is the only right way" it is no choice it was mandatory. So why should anyone train 5m SP mandatory skills that are USELESS to the actual gaming experience? You do know that even of the V/V Presence IV guys ALOT are against the skills and supportive of the removal. So YOU are the vocal minority now!
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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:09:00 -
[42]
Ah, happens to the best of us :)
Just one more thing: Actually i can use the nearly 5mio. sp i will get very very good. I remaped to perc and will, but 2 weeks later i decided together with a RL friend that we want to start producing something. Actually EVEMon tells me i have 272 days left with about 1662 sp/hour. feelsbadman.jpg
So actually im kind of favoured by this change as i will have the possibility to pump those sp into industry and science and dont have to rely on my 1662 sp/hour.
But, i STILL hate this change. Perhaps something at least 1 or 2 people can think about..
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helmut cheddar
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/11/2010 10:12:50 Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/11/2010 10:11:25
Originally by: Klatho Cron ..was made in the german EO forum. After about 200 people made their descision it was 70.2% of people who were below 4mio. sp in learnings. 11.92% had all V. But im generous and count them in on the "good" side even though all V in learnings is stupid too.
That means that at least 70.2% of all people did it wrong. Now ccp denies me my advantage over those lazy impatient guys.
Now wheres youre argument that learnings were meaningless cause "everybody did them cause they had to do so" now ? The vast majority did it wrong. Best argument to get them back and change nothing.
Charisma 5/5 is senseless idiocy
charisma V is OCD
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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:44:00 -
[44]
OCD ? Can someone enlighten me ?
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Lillith Starfire
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:33:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Klatho Cron OCD ? Can someone enlighten me ?
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Meaning incredibly insecure person who needs a label to feel speshel.
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Luminos
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:38:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Klatho Cron WTF ? Tippia and Muul, i didnt agree with him. Hes like: Those people with 5/4 have only 2mio sp, but they are perfectly fine.
Im like: **** no. Theyre not. 5/4 is inadequate. presence IV rest V! You got it ? presence 4 rest 5. presence four rest five. presence should be level 4(IV, four). everything else should be 5(V, five). GOT IT ?? God damn..
edit: i swear to god, if i hear the phrase "free sp" once again i will puke on my monitor..inb4 free sp free sp free sp...***gots
edit2: @doctor: if the change isnt about me, the customer, its a bad change. Nothing to argue here.
Can you tell the difference?
Because I'm seriously stuck here.
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Captain Mastiff
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:56:00 -
[47]
Not too impressed to be honest.
I invested my time into these skills so that I would have the benefit in the long run which has certainly paid off by now. Now everyone is going to have relatively the same attributes it seems to me that the sandbox just got quite a bit smaller, more ash than sand now.
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Nicky's Tomb
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:59:00 -
[48]
Pardon me, but what does 4/5, 4/4, 5/4 mean?
Does it mean tier1/tier2 levels?
So if I have all the basic LS at level 5 and all the higher LS at level 4 I would be:
5/4 ?
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 16:07:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Nicky's Tomb Pardon me, but what does 4/5, 4/4, 5/4 mean?
Does it mean tier1/tier2 levels?
So if I have all the basic LS at level 5 and all the higher LS at level 4 I would be:
5/4 ?
yes, that's exactly that. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.26 16:17:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Captain Mastiff Now everyone is going to have relatively the same attributes
Nah. Between remaps and implants and everyone having trained learning skills to some degree anyway (because, no, it was never a real choice not to train them), everyone will have relatively the same attributes after the patch as before.
Quote: it seems to me that the sandbox just got quite a bit smaller
Quite the opposite: since they removed that forced compulsory heavily heavily recommended (and you'd be a fool not to follow the recommendation) skill set, people are now freer than ever to pick what they actually want and go their own way. It will lead to less homogeneity and more choice. It's a good thing. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Chingyz
Caldari Reverse Psychology. BAT PHONE
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Posted - 2010.11.26 16:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Rian O'Shea
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Insufficient sample, arguing the entire playerbase is represented by the german speaking playerbase is shoddy reasoning at best.
I'm amazed at your stupidity regarding polls and sample sizes. The German EO forum has a lot of active members and can be used just fine for this.
I'm amazed at your stupidity regarding analyzing polls and sample sizes. Everybody who has ever worked with statistics know that basing observations on one culture or nationality only represents that culture or nationality. The German population does not represent the population of EVE just as they don't represent the population of EU nor the world.
By the way insulting people on their intelligence is a bad move as there's always someone who knows more than you do. Yes I know the irony in this but I can't help making bad moves.
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Luminos
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Posted - 2010.11.27 04:42:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Luminos on 27/11/2010 04:42:16
Originally by: Tippia Quite the opposite: since they removed that forced compulsory heavily heavily recommended ...
No, I think you had it right the first time.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2010.11.27 04:49:00 -
[53]
Reinstate learning skills when we can get Amarr BS XVIII.
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DsItnangel
Caldari Space Candy Distribution
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Posted - 2010.11.27 04:51:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Klatho Cron ..was made in the german EO forum. After about 200 people made their descision it was 70.2% of people who were below 4mio. sp in learnings. 11.92% had all V. But im generous and count them in on the "good" side even though all V in learnings is stupid too.
That means that at least 70.2% of all people did it wrong. Now ccp denies me my advantage over those lazy impatient guys.
Now wheres youre argument that learnings were meaningless cause "everybody did them cause they had to do so" now ? The vast majority did it wrong. Best argument to get them back and change nothing.
Inappropriate comment removed. Spitfire
lol why u mad tho?....But seriously, I'm game for this. Additionally
Beware Dear Saboteur, You Shall Be Measured |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.11.27 04:51:00 -
[55]
Is our capsuleers learning?
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Inspiration
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Posted - 2010.11.27 23:45:00 -
[56]
Assumption is the mother of all ****ups.
CPP on occasion has changed the prerequisites for starting to train certain skills.
I am pretty sure it used to be that you needed the basic learning skills to level 5 before you got the option to train the advanced ones. Either that or it was never very clear, another habit of CCP in the old days...descriptions where not that good. Thus those having 5/4 training are not stupid, they likely did not have the option to train otherwise. Getting stuck with just the basic skills at level 4 would be a terrible position to be in, even when playing just for a year.
So, things change...and now we finally get rid of the silly learning skills.
I mean, learning to learn learning skills faster to learn to learn specific attributes for learning those attributes faster to learn new skills with those attributes faster.
How STUPID is that? Well, that is the old system in a nutshell :) BYE BYE :)
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Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.11.28 13:25:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Klatho Cron ..was made in the german EO forum. After about 200 people made their descision it was 70.2% of people who were below 4mio. sp in learnings. 11.92% had all V. But im generous and count them in on the "good" side even though all V in learnings is stupid too.
That means that at least 70.2% of all people did it wrong. Now ccp denies me my advantage over those lazy impatient guys.
Now wheres youre argument that learnings were meaningless cause "everybody did them cause they had to do so" now ? The vast majority did it wrong. Best argument to get them back and change nothing.
Inappropriate comment removed. Spitfire
It seems like you won't acknowledge the fact that you did the stupid thing of training all the learning skills to V.
The smart ones went 4/4, 5/4 (if they planed to do everything) or added them as appropriate to their training plans.
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
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Posted - 2010.11.28 13:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Klatho Cron
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
..hubris,..
hubris..had to look that up. Nice one. Me rikey. And no it isnt. If you like ****, its still ****. The freedom of personal taste doesnt exist, as you probably were told.
No I was referring to your post about being right, arguing that you are right without providing anything but subjective examples is poor reasoning evident of someone suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Originally by: Samuel Langhorne Clemens I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
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