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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 05:47:00 -
[31]
Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 05:58:48
Originally by: illford baker
Originally by: So Sensational
Nope, I am making a copy (From another third party no less), I take nothing.
you are making a copy, and you are taking a sale from him. money that SHOULD go to him. you are taking something, don't try to rationalize it into something else.
I take no sale because I wouldn't and couldn't purchase the product. I already spend all the entertainment dollars (Kronor in this case) that I'm capable of spending.
You could argue that if there was no piracy, and I at some point in the future had access to more money, I might purchase one of the items I download. That is possible but in my opinion that's far from enough to outweigh the positive aspects of piracy.
The "taking a sale" part is a bit of a gray zone because with torrents you're sharing the files, I might be taking a sale (Or several) or I might not be depending on who I'm sharing with. That is a separate debate altogether though.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Do they still enjoy the idea that somebody is viewing or using their goods even though they receive nothing in kind for their work?
Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work.
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Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.28 05:52:00 -
[32]
Meh, typed a whole lot, but turned into a TLDR thing.
In short: Media corporations are stuck in the 1920's with their businessmodels and some governments are most probably desperately trying to get the information flow on the internet under their control for obvious reasons - Using copyright law as one of their tools.
"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 06:16:00 -
[33]
Originally by: So Sensational
Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work.
I will note the some probably do showing everyone that you are in fact not positive of this statement. Do you have any references?
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illford baker
STK Scientific IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.28 06:19:00 -
[34]
Originally by: So Sensational Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 05:58:48
I take no sale because I wouldn't and couldn't purchase the product. I already spend all the entertainment dollars (Kronor in this case) that I'm capable of spending.
You could argue that if there was no piracy, and I at some point in the future had access to more money, I might purchase one of the items I download. That is possible but in my opinion that's far from enough to outweigh the positive aspects of piracy.
The "taking a sale" part is a bit of a gray zone because with torrents you're sharing the files, I might be taking a sale (Or several) or I might not be depending on who I'm sharing with. That is a separate debate altogether though.
if you were not going to spend money on it anyway, than you do not deserve it. if you don't think its worth money, than you don't deserve to use it. that is one of the most flimsy arguments i have ever heard defend piracy!
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 06:20:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Originally by: So Sensational
Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work.
I will note the some probably do showing everyone that you are in fact not positive of this statement. Do you have any references?
Can I prove that some artists who want to get paid also take pride in the quality (Based on the enjoyment that people get out of it) of their work? No I don't keep a list at hand, sorry.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.11.28 06:26:00 -
[36]
Two pages and nobody noticed that this is a state security apparatus enforcing private contract.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 06:54:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 28/11/2010 06:55:00
Originally by: So Sensational
Can I prove that some artists who want to get paid also take pride in the quality (Based on the enjoyment that people get out of it) of their work? No I don't keep a list at hand, sorry.
Just as a note, when you are in a debate it is advisable to come prepared with references as proof as it really helps your case. To let you know I can name 2 major brand names off the top of my head but as I'm playing con for the sake of the debate I will not list them...yet.
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 06:58:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Originally by: So Sensational
Can I prove that some artists who want to get paid also take pride in the quality (Based on the enjoyment that people get out of it) of their work? No I don't keep a list at hand, sorry.
Just as a note, when you are in a debate it is advisable to come prepared with references as proof as it really helps your case. Just as a note I can name 2 major brand names off the top of my head but as I'm playing for the sake of the debate I will not list them...yet.
Brand names relevant how exactly? I still don't understand what sort of reference you were expecting. Do you really want me to find an artist who takes pride in the quality of their work or are you just ignoring my points and rambling like a robot?
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.28 06:58:00 -
[39]
I think piracy is a good thing for the following reasons.
False advertisement No return policy Other policies
Games
Lets take EA for example which btw I cant remember making a good game, when they release a game I have an option to buy or 'try' with torrents. Since EA have been a huge let down, their products are always downloaded and tried first, they are then bought IF I like the game, not only do I delete the crap they have within 48hours I almost never buy since I have never been impressed.
Now some of you may reply "well what about limited demo's?", this is just as bad, I want to 'test' the whole (single player part at least) game not some crappy 5 min demo.
Now if I were to buy a game and delete it in 48 hours I would NEVER be able to return it, this is usually the policy game companies have which is pretty shocking since some games are so bad people should be paid to play.
Reviews are biased most of the time, since I am my own person no one else can tell me what I will 'love this year' and 'is definitely worth playing'.
Software
With software it is a different story, I have almost always been impressed with microsoft and even though they are ******edly expensive I consider windows & office a bargain considering what you can do with them and how much I use them, these are always bought.
Shows
I live in England so American shows hit us like 9 months later, I am just speeding up the process, I would hardly class this as stealing since I will most likely watch the show when it is shown in England.
ADVERTISEMENT SUCKS, I AM NOT GOING TO BUY YOUR **** AND DONT CARE, STOP SHOWING ME CRAP AND SPOILING THE SHOW!!
This is another reason I download shows but I hate the ads and for the record this is why companies 'whine' at piracy, truth be told they couldnt give a **** about the product just the ad sales but that makes sense I guess.
Movies
I havent been impressed with a movie in years, back in the days when I use to download, I did it because I hated the idea of a smoking ban in cinemas, downloading meant I could smoke, eat and PAUSE without being *****ed at.
Now that I have stopped smoking, I just find it easier working with ĉad freeĈ movies and like to be in control of what I watch.
In a world where loopholes are used everyday, where lawyers question a contract because someone said and instead of or, I say download what you want or dont want.
Government and business take advantage of people so I say we do the same thing, if they want it to stop they can try to stop it
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:07:00 -
[40]
Originally by: So Sensational
Brand names relevant how exactly? I still don't understand what sort of reference you were expecting. Do you really want me to find an artist who takes pride in the quality of their work or are you just ignoring my points and rambling like a robot?
Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means. And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate. Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one.
So far you have a very poor case here. I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:11:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kalle Demos
I havent been impressed with a movie in years, back in the days when I use to download, I did it because I hated the idea of a smoking ban in cinemas, downloading meant I could smoke, eat and PAUSE without being *****ed at.
You guys used to be able to smoke in the cinema? That is kind of cool actually. As long as I've known our theaters never allowed smoking though maybe back in the '70's perhaps.
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:13:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means.
Well I'd like to state that I never made that statement.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate.
I don't have to prove that you breathe, much like I shouldn't have to prove that some (Or even most) artists take pride in their work.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one.
State what? And since when is a label a reference that proves my claim?
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So far you have a very poor case here.
So far you don't seem to understand a thing I've written.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto.
No I'm good, but if you want I might be able to help you with your reading comprehension.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:16:00 -
[43]
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means.
Well I'd like to state that I never made that statement.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate.
I don't have to prove that you breathe, much like I shouldn't have to prove that some (Or even most) artists take pride in their work.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one.
State what? And since when is a label a reference that proves my claim?
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So far you have a very poor case here.
So far you don't seem to understand a thing I've written.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto.
No I'm good, but if you want I might be able to help you with your reading comprehension.
This is an attempt to sidetrack. Con will point out that the opponent still hasn't backed up their case.
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Izzy Lizzy
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:18:00 -
[44]
Anybody that believes in the legitimacy of copyright that enjoys listening to Bach should throw out all his music on principal. If he had lived under our draconian copyright laws we'd have never heard of him.
Copyrights, patents, and IP law should all be abolished. I mean do you people seriously believe you can copyright an idea? There's not one invention in history that ever came from the idea of just one person. Invention and innovation happen as a result of people interacting with each other.
Just take a look at the history of copyright. It originated as a tool for censorship. And patents are nothing more than trying to use the force of government to guarantee you get a ton of money at the expense of your competitor. Something society ultimately pays for in the form of higher prices for everything.
And don't tell me that without patents no one would invent things. As if things weren't invented before the Patent Office existed. Patents don't provide incentive for people to make profits. They provide incentive for people to sue anyone that tries to compete with your beloved cash cow. You'd know that if you ever looked into patent law.
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:22:00 -
[45]
Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:25:45
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means.
Well I'd like to state that I never made that statement.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate.
I don't have to prove that you breathe, much like I shouldn't have to prove that some (Or even most) artists take pride in their work.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one.
State what? And since when is a label a reference that proves my claim?
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So far you have a very poor case here.
So far you don't seem to understand a thing I've written.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto.
No I'm good, but if you want I might be able to help you with your reading comprehension.
This is an attempt to sidetrack. Con will point out that the opponent still hasn't backed up their case.
There is no attempt to sidetrack.
My case is that some humans take pride in their work. Pro will point out that this is common knowledge, if that is not an acceptable reference for this serious debate on this very serious internet spaceship off-topic forum then that's too bad. Yes I know that this is an appeal to the people, sue me.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:29:00 -
[46]
Originally by: So Sensational
There is no attempt to sidetrack.
My case is that some humans take pride in their work. Pro will point out that this is common knowledge, if that is not an acceptable reference for this serious debate on this very serious internet spaceship off-topic forum then that's too bad.
That is not an acceptable reference. I could tell you that in some parts of the world that the sky is orange but would you believe me? Most likely not unless I showed you a reference to back up my claim.
I've also have noted that you have taken potshots at me which is another no no in debate and now you are falling back on the internet spaceships forums tag line. This is a forum of discussion like any other and OOPE is a subforum for discussion outside of internet spaceships. I am attempting to have a discussion. Have you found those references yet?
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illford baker
STK Scientific IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:30:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kalle Demos
wall of text
games: BS, you cant "try" a whole game. take the damn risk, risk is a part of life. if demos, and reviews, and videos are not enough for you, then don't buy or torrent it, it is clearly not for you.
software: yes expensive, and there are free alternatives usually (open office, linux). also you get support if you buy.
shows: yea the lag sucks. but another part of life and i think that you should get the shows with no lag, you can try petitioning the right people to try and change their mind. yes ads suck, but thats why i love DVR's, skip the ads so long as you don't watch it live. TBH, there are a few good ads that did make me consider the product, but they play it again and again and again until i want to stab the creator of the ad in the face! movies: the theaters do need to bring back intermission, you expect me to hold back my large drink for that long!?!? but i am patent and willing to wait till it comes out on DVD or netflix or whatever so i can watch it as many times as i want, and stop and start as many times as i want. and as for your last statement "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" don't stoop to their level, tit for tat retaliation just makes a viscous circle. example
random person: i pirate because of DRM company: i DRM because of pirate
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:36:00 -
[48]
Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:37:29
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich That is not an acceptable reference.
Again, too bad. I'm not going to google to find a source that proves my claim (Especially not since you seem to just be trolling) and if you feel that you've "won the debate" and you're satisfied with that then that works for me.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I've also have noted that you have taken potshots at me which is another no no in debate
Right back at you.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich and now you are falling back on the internet spaceships forums tag line.
Just pointing out how silly your requests are.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I am attempting to have a discussion.
Clearly not, if you wanted to you wouldn't pretend like you're a part of a high school debate team, you'd actually read what I write. What's cute is that your reference to labels is not at all relevant to my claim, nor do you seem to understand what my claim is.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:42:00 -
[49]
This is just painful. Here I am with 2 links up that would back up your claims. They took me all of a half a minute to look up and yet in all this time you still cannot defend your own case. Would you like to switch sides or are you content with your sidetracking of the debate? I can do both pro or con it makes no difference to me.
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:52:00 -
[50]
Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:52:21
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Here I am with 2 links up that would back up your claims. They took me all of a half a minute to look up...
Congratulations.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich in all this time you still cannot defend your own case.
I don't feel the need to (Beyond what I've already done that is), you can play debate king all you want, in the end you haven't actually said anything that's relevant to the topic.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Would you like to switch sides or are you content with your sidetracking of the debate?
That would be your doing, not mine.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:05:00 -
[51]
Nah, I've attempted to keep this going but at this point all you are doing is attacking me instead of even attempting to prove your case in a debate that I let you start. I was hoping that you would have put up a little more effort but sadly a part of me knew it wouldn't last very long. Maybe if I'm lucky Akita can pick up the slack and show how to properly back up points made.
Since this debate is over I'll give you the links so you'll know better next time.
Trent Reznor Radiohead
Better luck next time eh chap? I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal.
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:12:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal.
Here it is. You're either trolling, ignoring me or you're an idiot. Neither one of your links proves my claim and you still don't seem to understand what my claim is. At this point (Which we've been at since your second reply in this thread), what could possibly be left for me to do other than attack you?
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:18:00 -
[53]
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal.
Here it is. You're either trolling, ignoring me or you're an idiot. Neither one of your links proves my claim and you still don't seem to understand what my claim is. At this point (Which we've been at since your second reply in this thread), what could possibly be left for me to do other than attack you?
You have a little hurt showing there.
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Ace2001
Caldari S E A R
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:20:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
That is not an acceptable reference. I could tell you that in some parts of the world that the sky is orange but would you believe me? Most likely not unless I showed you a reference to back up my claim.
Wait, doesn't the sky turn orange-ish when the sun is setting/rising? So technically somewhere in the world right now the sky IS orange-ish?... Doesn't actually sort of prove the other person's point that somewhere in the world right now an Artist is proud and happy of their work, hoping people will enjoy it whether they bought it or got it for free?
Unless my memory is playing a huge joke on me and sunsets/sunrises aren't orange-ish. D:
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:21:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
You have a little hurt showing there.
Turning a thread from serious issue to "u mad?", pretty good job bro. Now get out.
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Wild Rho
Amarr Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:25:00 -
[56]
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal.
Here it is. You're either trolling, ignoring me or you're an idiot. Neither one of your links proves my claim and you still don't seem to understand what my claim is. At this point (Which we've been at since your second reply in this thread), what could possibly be left for me to do other than attack you?
If no one understands what your claim is it's because you've utterly failed to clearly present what it actually is. So far all it looks like is that you think piracy is "ok" but you've failed to give any sort of convicing justification as to why.
When you take goods or services that were not free without paying for them then its theft, no matter what your opinion on the provider is.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:27:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ace2001
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
That is not an acceptable reference. I could tell you that in some parts of the world that the sky is orange but would you believe me? Most likely not unless I showed you a reference to back up my claim.
Wait, doesn't the sky turn orange-ish when the sun is setting/rising? So technically somewhere in the world right now the sky IS orange-ish?... Doesn't actually sort of prove the other person's point that somewhere in the world right now an Artist is proud and happy of their work, hoping people will enjoy it whether they bought it or got it for free?
Unless my memory is playing a huge joke on me and sunsets/sunrises aren't orange-ish. D:
Many of my sunsets are more reddish with yellow sunrises but yeah depending on geographical settings many can be orange. I should have elaborated and said the sky is orange all the time but for all I know somewhere in the world that really is the case. But yeah they don't call it a Tequila sunrise for nothing.
The real point though is that in a debate you have to assume that everyone present knows nothing of the subject being discussed and that you must back up your case with references and facts. Much of this is taught in high school (though I'm guessing they've dropped this since I've been there?) and I'm sure you go further into it in college if you take political science or something. Not my current field so I wouldn't know.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:30:00 -
[58]
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
You have a little hurt showing there.
Turning a thread from serious issue to "u mad?", pretty good job bro. Now get out.
Give me 500 mil and I'll stop posting in this thread bro. But seriously, you are really starting to let that hurt show, you should probably move on instead of continually derailing the thread.
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:31:00 -
[59]
Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 08:34:09
Originally by: Wild Rho
If no one understands what your claim is it's because you've utterly failed to clearly present what it actually is.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Now since you brought it up, I would love it if you were to start this debate on what they gain when you make a copy of something like a cd or a movie without paying for it. I'll let you be pro-pirate here.
Originally by: So Sensational It probably won't be worth the effort to go very far into the subject, considering the CCP policy on politics. But a simple example could be the pride that an artist feels when people enjoy their work.
If underlining the text is not enough then I don't know what is.
Originally by: Wild Rho
When you take goods or services that were not free without paying for them then its theft, no matter what your opinion on the provider is.
It sure is. But when you make a copy it's making a copy.
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Give me 500 mil and I'll stop posting in this thread bro. But seriously, you are really starting to let that hurt show, you should probably move on instead of continually derailing the thread.
no u
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Wild Rho
Amarr Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:55:00 -
[60]
That point was poorly made and you never actually backed it up with some sort of evidence (that clearly existed) but instead chose to turn the debate towards an argument about how you didn't need to provide it followed by attacks. You've still also failed to address those that are not simply happy to take pride in their work and do expect to get paid for that they produce.
Taking a copy is still taking, you are using the products or services provided by someone without paying them for their work when it was not provided for free use, therefore it's still stealing.
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