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Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.09 21:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am sure this has been discussed many times - however - I did not see a topic in search.
What is wrong with the concept of including scripting modules in Eve? Instead of fighting the idea of scripted mining, why not embrace it?
It makes sense that a corporation would want to have a fleet of bot miners / miner drones that could launch from a station and harvest ore. So - why not advance on this?
Maybe a POS module or station service that allows controlling ships fitted with a remote control rig in a solar system? Maybe a little code window to write and upload scripts to the rigs using a CCP scripting language?
For high-sec - perhaps introduce a mechanic that goes something like - the more player owned defenses, (or perhaps the higher the experience points) the less help from Concord. This would protect the newer players but "wean" a player off of reliance on Concord for safety in high sec space.
Just thinking out loud.
God I love this game :)
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Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.09 21:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
I was just thinking how cool it would be to expand on the in-game coding skill...
Imagine if you could write and sell scripts for various operations. Also, with the right skill, you could introduce hidden malware into the device with the potential to usurp or disrupt an operation using digital warfare. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
488
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Posted - 2012.08.09 21:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Change your name, get into the witness protection program, something.
Please tell me this is a troll, right? Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.09 22:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Change your name, get into the witness protection program, something. Please tell me this is a troll, right?
No troll! Just throwing out ideas that might be good and are quite possibly bad :)
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Astroniomix
Thorn Project Black Thorne Alliance
141
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Posted - 2012.08.10 00:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Please be a troll. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
185
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Posted - 2012.08.10 00:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
I like this, heres why
I know i can get a few systems locked down completely for bot miners. nice belts lots of them in out of the way systems, I dont currently mine, but if i could bot it i might set them up to strip the belts clear in a few hours. Im sure all the other miners would understand when they look for ore and dont find any, anywhere. an hour or two after dt.
all those new players? yeah im sure that the late US TZ players would just be over joyed that there isnt a rock left in space.
Ive got a few billion to drop on this, do you? Ive got a list of friends with deactivated miners (couldnt take the UnInv) that would use a CCP sanctioned bot. oh and i think i still know people who hold null sov, anyone buying titans?
Please be a fail troll . and not seriously asking this question. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1200
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Posted - 2012.08.10 01:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bots will ruin the economy.
If such a thing was allowed, everyone and their sister would have a mining bot, and minerals would be so cheap that the game would cease to have meaning.
Instead of the "cold, harsh universe" we get "easy, cheap, and lazy".
Also, bots are bad. And you should feel bad for even thinking of them being even somewhat possibly allowable in some universe. |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.10 01:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Bots will ruin the economy.
If such a thing was allowed, everyone and their sister would have a mining bot, and minerals would be so cheap that the game would cease to have meaning.
Instead of the "cold, harsh universe" we get "easy, cheap, and lazy".
Also, bots are bad. And you should feel bad for even thinking of them being even somewhat possibly allowable in some universe.
My simple logic is - people are using scripts now. So, instead, create a way to use them that's fun for the people who like that kind of thing and add control at the same time.
I am not suggesting that the ability to remote control technology should go unchecked. For instance, it could be that the tech had a chance to "go rogue" or that by using it - it might actually draw rogue drones to the user etc.
Certainly not army after army of uncontrolled devices harvesting all the rocks.
There are ways to implement things without shattering the universe :)
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Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
187
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Posted - 2012.08.10 02:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Minding is a grind of a means to an end. Iff we did not have active people mining ,rating, pi, logistics there would be no sense of loss which is a strong asset for eve. If you would like to know how scripting in eve would result , spend your time on SiSi
Out side of training people don' t go to SiSi as there is just no point Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2012.08.10 02:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Honestly, strictly speaking from an in-game perspective the complete lack of automation of many aspects of the game is utterly ludicrous. The idea that as ship pilots of highly sophisticated ships we cannot set up simple automation routines to transfer ore from one ship/hold/can to another is just plain idiotic. Even having scanners and targetting systems set to automatically target asteroids of a given type or all types within a given range should be available simply because with the technology at hand it not only would have been implemented but it should have been implemented. Humanity constantly spends effort, time, and money in the pursuit of getting more done faster and with less work on the part of humans, and to that effect ever escalating automation of manual labor tasks is key. In effect we're flying 28th century ships with 18th century labor and it doesn't make a lot of sense.
From the perspective of an MMO player automating any aspect of an MMO is a potential headache waiting to happen, but then so is not automating anything. It rewards people for being able to game the system and, not for actually playing the game. In and of itself "gaming the system" is one of the core aspects of EVE Online. It's what everyone refers to as the "meta-game" after all. In and of itself I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily. Oh, granted it has the potential to cause issues, but steps can be taken to work around them.
For example. Implement a "workforce automation" mid-slot module that allows you to create a couple very basic scripts for automating some of the more tedious aspects of the game. These can include reloading your ammo for you every time you go more than 30 seconds without firing a shot to targetting asteroids based on type or proximity.
Then implement the following restrictions/penalties. #1 When used in high-sec all CONCORD protections for the ship equipped with it is removed. This would reflect CCP's dislike for this sort of activity while also allowing for players to "police their own" so to speak.
#2 Increase the ship's signature radius by 650%. This helps reduce the chances of macro-miners, and macro-anything'ers really, have of hiding out in sites/anomalies, wormholes, and deadspace by making them far easier to probe down.
#3 Consume a fairly significant amount of capacitor or reduce the ship's total available capacitor amount when active. By having a significant capacitor penalty for using the module it will prevent other modules from being used as often or as effectively as they currently can be. This can take shape as either not being able to run 3 strip miners 23.5/7/365 or not being able to make a SSB tank perma-run on an exhumer. In short it will lower absolute ship productivity while making them easier to blow up.
I could probably come up with one or two more penalties to such a module, but the fact is that I don't need to. CCP will never do it because it violates the core spirit of most MMOs which is that when you play the game you should be playing the game, not having something else play it for you. If you can't be assed to run missions or mine ore for money and pay attention to the client then hop in a retriever or a mackinaw and mine ice. You can go half an hour or more, depending on skills and fleet composition, without needing to interact with your ships that way, and it will give you plenty of time to read books, watch movies, take a bath, walk the dog, get in a quick workout, or even play other games.
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Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
326
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Posted - 2012.08.10 03:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Clystan wrote: My simple logic is - people are using scripts now. So, instead, create a way to use them that's fun for the people who like that kind of thing and add control at the same time.
Your logic is flawed:
The fact is that not enough people are using scripts now, and those are being annihilated as they deserve -- this is all that keeps minerals from crashing through the floor. If everyone and their dog started using legalised bots to farm minerals, then what would happen to the market?
That's right, Trit at < ISK 1.00/unit.
How would this make the effort to mitigate risk of loss, having to recover from same, and industry to fill demand due to same meaningful in what's supposed to be a ruthlessly competitive sandbox where losses are "real?" Oh that's right, it wouldn't.
Clystan wrote: [...]
Certainly not army after army of uncontrolled devices harvesting all the rocks.
[...]
But this is exactly what would happen, eventually:
Because of EVE's stone-primitive, perfectly predictable, laughably archaic NPC enemy AI --read: easily bottable, ref.: The Ichorya/Osmon/Uuhuhalen(sp?) missioning-hub/corridor for just one example-- I don't see CCP doing much to change this either, although if they did, then the tears would be beyond epic
No.
This idea is beyond horrible, it would completely break industry in this game, which in turn would break the player-competition (ruthlessly so) market, which is why this game works, not because "EVE is a PvP-combat game!!111oneone!" the way all the insufferable little scrub 1337-teens/kid-ults would have you believe.
There is a fine and proper artistry to wielding verbal scalpels, such that the crap-poster you've slashed doesn't even know they've been cut. But verbal bludgeons -- Those are just fun. |
Ghazu
21
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Posted - 2012.08.10 05:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Please boil your hands and never post again. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1630
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Posted - 2012.08.10 06:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Change your name, get into the witness protection program, something.
Took the words right out of my mouth |
Lord Zim
1127
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Posted - 2012.08.10 11:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mining is already riddled with bots as it is, and with the latest mining barge buffs they've made bots as safe as they can possibly be in hisec, without actually banning ganking in its entirety ... and you want to make this worse?
No. Get out. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
1062
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Please be a troll.
Lord Zim wrote:No. Get out.
And if these aren't clear enough ... go biomass yourself.
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Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mining is already riddled with bots as it is, and with the latest mining barge buffs they've made bots as safe as they can possibly be in hisec, without actually banning ganking in its entirety ... and you want to make this worse?
No. Get out.
Honestly, the only really bad part of 1.2 as regards this topic is the procurer buffs. The procurer is cheap enough that there's not much ePeen reward in ganking one and they don't have the possibility of decent T2 salvage like the skiff so ganking one in and of itself will likely never be rewarding. The covetor and hulk didn't receive much of an EHP boost with the patch, and while the retriever and mackinaw did they're still within shouting distances of the covetor line so still reasonably gankable. That holds doubly true when you come across pilots who think that just because they got an EHP boost they suddenly don't need to tank their AFK-bot ships.
Now if all the macro-miners start flying procurers and nothing else it'll be a problem, but I don't see that happening. Maybe most of them, but not all of them |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
123
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Posted - 2012.08.10 19:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bots killed mineral prices years ago. Isogen is still recovering, but other mineral are now back to prices that they once were (trit is high, but was unnaturally low due to shuttle NPC sales). It took a long time for the market to recover (yes, there were other issues too).
After they killed those prices, they botted missions. Implant prices then dropped through the floor.
Botting is bad because it cause massive deflation very quickly. |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.10 21:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Obsidiana wrote:Bots killed mineral prices years ago. Isogen is still recovering, but other mineral are now back to prices that they once were (trit is high, but was unnaturally low due to shuttle NPC sales). It took a long time for the market to recover (yes, there were other issues too). After they killed those prices, they botted missions. Implant prices then dropped through the floor. Botting is bad because it cause massive deflation very quickly.
I agree that scripting outside of the game is a bad thing. I also acknowledge that for whatever reason - some people enjoy the scripting/automation part of that activity.
I am suggesting that the scripting activity be encapsulated and integrated into the game itself. I think that outside scripting should result in a ban. I am assuming that CCP doesn't just start banning every scripter for various well-thought out reasons.
So, I am simply suggesting that an in-game solution could be found to: a) Satisfy the players that like to automate things b) Satisfy those who abhor AFK activities c) Give people a new skill to learn d) Provide new avenues for game balance.
I think some people read the title and thought this was a thread to encourage the propogation of the type of out-of-game scripting that requires no human to be present to control.
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Lord Zim
1132
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Posted - 2012.08.10 22:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
And ingame scripting is supposed to be different from out of game scripting ... how? |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.10 22:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:And ingame scripting is supposed to be different from out of game scripting ... how?
Because CCP can create and control it. Imagine if you could only use CCP created procedures to add to your script. Furthermore that these script modules had to be earned through learning, training etc. |
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Lord Zim
1132
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Posted - 2012.08.10 22:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
So what do you envision this scripting will be doing for mining which won't completely **** mineral, isotopes and fuel block prices in the ass due to excessive botting?
And why do you think this would be something CCP would even willingly consider given the fact they're constantly trying to remove AFK content such as datacores, moon mining and bots (the latter because it injects excessive amounts of isk and minerals into the economy), and scripting would be the epitome of AFK content? |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.10 22:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:So what do you envision this scripting will be doing for mining which won't completely **** mineral, isotopes and fuel block prices in the ass due to excessive botting?
And why do you think this would be something CCP would even willingly consider given the fact they're constantly trying to remove AFK content such as datacores, moon mining and bots (the latter because it injects excessive amounts of isk and minerals into the economy), and scripting would be the epitome of AFK content?
Because they can offer an in-game alternative to players who enjoy programming and automation, offer some new technology that may actually teach players something new and different, and possibly add a new game option like Cyberwarfare. They can regulate the use of the technology and enforce bans on real-world scripting by saying that the game offers some level of automation that has been designed to keep the impact of these activities in check. |
Lord Zim
1132
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Posted - 2012.08.10 22:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Yeah, no, that's not going to happen. Again, CCP are actively changing game mechanics which don't require active input into game mechanics which DO require active input, datacores being one of them, and they're (at least publically claiming they're) cracking down on bots mission and mining bots because of the effect they have on the economy.
They're not going to make "officially sanctioned bot-mechanics" just so they can "teach players something new and different". |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.10 22:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Yeah, no, that's not going to happen. Again, CCP are actively changing game mechanics which don't require active input into game mechanics which DO require active input, datacores being one of them, and they're (at least publically claiming they're) cracking down on bots mission and mining bots because of the effect they have on the economy.
They're not going to make "officially sanctioned bot-mechanics" just so they can "teach players something new and different".
You never know. I am assuming that more than one developer has used LegoNXTs and could imagine allowing players to incorporate some level of behavior into the machines.
If you think about it, look at all of the stuff we already do not have to control. Drones, probes, ships, everything already has extensive programming that we do not have to touch to accomplish our tasks. I am just exploring the idea of letting the players have a window into the machines behavior. That's the exciting part to me.
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Lord Zim
1132
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Posted - 2012.08.10 23:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Clystan wrote:You never know. I am assuming that more than one developer has used LegoNXTs and could imagine allowing players to incorporate some level of behavior into the machines. Au contraire, I know for a certainty that it will not happen, for a myriad of reasons. |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.10 23:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Clystan wrote:You never know. I am assuming that more than one developer has used LegoNXTs and could imagine allowing players to incorporate some level of behavior into the machines. Au contraire, I know for a certainty that it will not happen, for a myriad of reasons.
Tell me the difference between dropping in a rig and dropping in a code module? Hardly anything but a name. We are already scripting. It's just not branded. |
Lord Zim
1132
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Posted - 2012.08.10 23:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
Huh? "dropping in a rig" vs "dropping in a code module"? That makes zero sense. |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.08.10 23:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Huh? "dropping in a rig" vs "dropping in a code module"? That makes zero sense.
If you think of the UI as your window into the objects of Eve, the act of dragging a rig icon into a slot is a highly simplified way to accomplish the complex task of altering the ships properties. |
Lord Zim
1132
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Posted - 2012.08.10 23:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Clystan wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Huh? "dropping in a rig" vs "dropping in a code module"? That makes zero sense. If you think of the UI as your window into the objects of Eve, the act of dragging a rig icon into a slot is a highly simplified way to accomplish the complex task of altering the ships properties. That's something completely different from what you started out with.
Clystan wrote:Maybe a POS module or station service that allows controlling ships fitted with a remote control rig in a solar system? Maybe a little code window to write and upload scripts to the rigs using a CCP scripting language? This is scripting the ship's behavior, not its properties. This will never, ever be officially sanctioned by CCP. Ever. Stop dreaming about it. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1205
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Posted - 2012.08.11 00:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
Clystan wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Huh? "dropping in a rig" vs "dropping in a code module"? That makes zero sense. If you think of the UI as your window into the objects of Eve, the act of dragging a rig icon into a slot is a highly simplified way to accomplish the complex task of altering the ships properties. What the hey, modules and rigs have nothing to do with bots and scripting.
Bots and scripts automate what would normally be done by players.
Modules and scripts improve the ship's abilities. |
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