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Draahk Chimera
Supervillains
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Posted - 2010.12.05 09:07:00 -
[1]
Right, I'm rather old in the game but I never got into marauders. Now I'm training it though. With minmatar bs 5 and caldari the choice is between vargur and golem. Maybe you EFT warriors can help me deciede with some number crunching and stuff. No deadspace modules please, I dont wanna paint "kill me" on the side.
As far as I see it. Vargur has the advantage of being able to kill cruisers (and even frigs on approach). Golem on the other hand I imagine does more dps to battleships. The deleyed damage and counting volleys is boring is hell though. I dont have the numbers on range. I imagine golem needs to rig for range but how about the vargur, do you rig for falloff, tank, damage?
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NoNah
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Posted - 2010.12.05 09:20:00 -
[2]
[Golem, Current] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Domination Target Painter Domination Target Painter Domination Target Painter Gist B-Type 100MN Afterburner Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Salvager II Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5
Replace the modules as you see fit in terms of quality. Domination TP's is a tad overkill, pith B-type shield boosters are about as much as CN navy, more effective but probably more attractive to clueless gankers. CN BCU's are somewhat vital.
[Vargur, Current] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer
Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Gist B-Type 100MN Afterburner Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard II
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
I'd personally prefer the machariel, the vargur doesn't really give anything in comparisson, looting and salvaging is really just not worth the effort. If you still want to go with it that's what I'd use though. It's tankier than the golem simply because a fifth tracking mod doesn't add all that much. If you prefer swap an invuln for a navy version and fit a third tracking computer instead of the second invuln. This allows you to use 4 gyros. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 540971
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.05 09:23:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/12/2010 09:24:42
Originally by: Draahk Chimera As far as I see it. Vargur has the advantage of being able to kill cruisers (and even frigs on approach). Golem on the other hand I imagine does more dps to battleships. The deleyed damage and counting volleys is boring is hell though. I dont have the numbers on range. I imagine golem needs to rig for range but how about the vargur, do you rig for falloff, tank, damage?
Hmmm: Pro Vargur: - No 45km "seam" in your damage as you switch to Javs <-> CN Torps - Don't have to deal with managing 3 painters (you won't have to worry about counting volleys anyway with a Golem) - Easier to take frigs out on approach (OTOH, frigs are rightfully drone food) - Its a bit faster, and very slightly more agile. - Arguably, the Vargur doesn't depend as much on the Marauders skill
Pro Golem: - More DPS (Torps => Don't worry about defenders) - 100% Pure Damage Type Selection - Ability to do Kin damage - Higher sensor str => less time jammed by Guristas - Larger Cargo (this matters if you're looting drone missions or more than one mission at a go) - Cheaper ammo costs
-Liang
Ed: I prefer the Golem. But not by a lot. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Draahk Chimera
Supervillains
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Posted - 2010.12.05 09:43:00 -
[4]
Frig killing depends on the mission. I have done mission running in a turret ship in the past so I know the difference. Some "lvl4" consist of 50-60 frigs and cruisers and 2 bs. When you do those missions in a missile boat you kill the cruisers in a few volleys then you wait for 5 minutes while your drones kills the frigs. In a turret ship you can kill half the frigs on approach and then mop up with drones.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2010.12.05 09:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Draahk Chimera Frig killing depends on the mission. I have done mission running in a turret ship in the past so I know the difference. Some "lvl4" consist of 50-60 frigs and cruisers and 2 bs. When you do those missions in a missile boat you kill the cruisers in a few volleys then you wait for 5 minutes while your drones kills the frigs. In a turret ship you can kill half the frigs on approach and then mop up with drones.
Downside of that is of course you've wasted damage shooting suboptimal targets. Normally you'd want to decline the really bad ones(Ie massive attack), and only take those where your drones can mop up the majority or all of the frigs before you're done with the rest.
Guns are hands down better, yes, but I'd say the golem is still a faster ship allround. Now if you were to compare it tot he machariel instead I probably would say the mach. It's that close. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 140500
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.05 10:58:00 -
[6]
I'd go with the vargur... the ability to put about 750 DPS onto a target 70km away would make short work of nearly any mission.
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Inara Tyana
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Posted - 2010.12.05 11:47:00 -
[7]
I used to multibox a vargur and a golem when running sanctums for guristas. The vargur was far superior even though it was using thermal damage. The high rof and the instant damage application is extremely beneficial, additionally the vargur can handle all cruisers quickly and even frigs >15 km out.
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Aperture Science inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.05 11:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Inara Tyana I used to multibox a vargur and a golem when running sanctums for guristas. The vargur was far superior even though it was using thermal damage. The high rof and the instant damage application is extremely beneficial, additionally the vargur can handle all cruisers quickly and even frigs >15 km out.
^This.
In a vargur, unless you land right on top of frigs (or you are doing that silly frigswarm mission) there is no need to use drones. Just warp in, sort by range (ascending) and kill off all frigates in room starting with closest one. I always shoot the frigates first before anything else, and they always die... bar some occasional lucky t2 frig/spider drone.
When you are grinding missions it isn't about how fast you can kill battleships, it's about how fast you can clear the average room comprised of the average amount of ships you will encounter during a typical lvl4 missions. Seeing as how there are almost always more smaller ships than larger ships waiting for drones to finish up frigs is just a waste of time. __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.05 12:12:00 -
[9]
I really like both, probably a slight edge to the varg just cuz tp is something I want to do to my annoying neighbor's house, and not to rats in a videogame
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Chakarr
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Posted - 2010.12.05 13:25:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Chakarr on 05/12/2010 13:35:38 If you have skills for both - then fly both. As for Vargur, I use the following non-deadspace setup, haven't found a level 4 it can't decimate. It will easily hit cruisers and frigs that aren't in a close orbit, drones will kill anything that gets under your guns. It will hit out to 100km+ with barrage and do 1200+ on paper dps with faction ammo (I use 5% implants). I am too cheap for T2/Faction ammo and have found fusion serves me well enough for my needs and still enables frig kills at around 80km lol. Guns have a <3second cycle so you won't have to wait between targets...
Swap out hardeners to suit mission, the Faction stuff can be T2 and it still fits, this is set up for Angels obviously
[Vargur, New Setup 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Explosion Dampening Field II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Warrior II x5 Valkyrie II x5
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.12.05 14:07:00 -
[11]
Quote: [Golem] 3x tp
[Vargur] 0x tp
This should answer your question. Tp is most annoying thing i can think of on pve boat.
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Draahk Chimera
Supervillains
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Posted - 2010.12.05 14:32:00 -
[12]
Ty for your input. But, Chakarr, you say your setup hits to 100km but the vargur can only target to 80 according to EFT.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:06:00 -
[13]
Its able to target to 90+k with all l5, 100+ in gang.
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Chakarr
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Draahk Chimera Ty for your input. But, Chakarr, you say your setup hits to 100km but the vargur can only target to 80 according to EFT.
True, but like I said that is just and EFT figure - I don't actually use barrage as I have never found it to be cost effective. Most Angel rats start within 80km and like to close the distance fast. The only things I typically try and shoot outside of my 40km tractor range are frigs anyway so the targeting range isn't an issue.
One thing I would recommend with any Marauder though is Multitasking to III, being able to lock 10 targets saves a lot of time, especially if you are looting/salvaging and especially given the awful scan res and lock times of the Marauder class ships.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:52:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/12/2010 17:55:03
Originally by: Headerman I'd go with the vargur... the ability to put about 750 DPS onto a target 70km away would make short work of nearly any mission.
I'm seeing < 550 DPS @ 75km. Where's the extra 200 DPS coming from? Also, t his is notably less than the 840 DPS a CNR gets at 120km.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.05 23:16:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Culmen on 05/12/2010 23:17:17 I'm leaning slightly towards the Vargur, though it's very close.
The Vargur has less DPS, but doesn't lose volleys to overkill DPS or missile flight time.
For example a Vargur will two shot most cruiser/battle cruisers, each volley takes about 3 seconds A golem on the other hand one shots the same cruiser/battlecruiser, but needs double target painters which have a duration of 10 seconds.
That means the Vargur essentially kills Cruisers about 30% faster.
Also, both ships pale in comparison to the Mach.
I've flown all 3 ships but use the vargur only for rogue drone missions. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.05 23:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Culmen Also, both ships pale in comparison to the Mach.
In pure killing speed, this is true. In pure isk/hour however, not in any significant way. At least not in Minmatar space.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.06 00:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/12/2010 17:55:03
Originally by: Headerman I'd go with the vargur... the ability to put about 750 DPS onto a target 70km away would make short work of nearly any mission.
I'm seeing < 550 DPS @ 75km. Where's the extra 200 DPS coming from? Also, t his is notably less than the 840 DPS a CNR gets at 120km.
-Liang
Oh? EFt must be a bit borked then, will poast the fit shortly
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Profit jr
Minmatar Kumovi The G0dfathers
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Posted - 2010.12.06 00:56:00 -
[19]
Stop being cheap, your sat in a 700million isk ship, get 3 Republic fleet gyro's.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.06 01:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Chakarr One thing I would recommend with any Marauder though is Multitasking to III, being able to lock 10 targets saves a lot of time, especially if you are looting/salvaging and especially given the awful scan res and lock times of the Marauder class ships.
oh dear god yes!
I'm probably going to use my learning skill refund to get targeting 5 and multtasking 3
my alt has it and I'm super jealous! I was putting it off till I int/mem remap, but I think I'll get the learning refund first.
salvaging 5 for t2 salvagers is great as well.
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MarvinJeni
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Posted - 2010.12.06 01:22:00 -
[21]
I fly both with very similar skills golem fit http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/21813-Golem-that-actually-has-TP-039-s.html
vargur fit http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/38466-Vargur-Angel-Cosmic-Anomalies.html two tacking comps with optimal scripts loaded instead of 2 sba now.
Just for comparison purposes i timed myself doing damsel in distress before the loot nerf and this is how it came out. Golem complete time about 14 mins Vargur complete time 12 mins
In the end its is up to you which you buy because the completion times are very close.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.06 02:54:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 06/12/2010 02:55:00
Originally by: Headerman On paper it has 763 DPS to 67km with standard EMP, or 700 DPS even with barrage. 878 DPS with RF EMP
Please go learn how falloff works. At Optimal + 1/2 falloff you do ~80% of your turret DPS. At optimal + falloff, you do 40.5% of your turret DPS. After that its not even worth remembering. That is to say that your Vargur is doing ~350 DPS at your quoted 67km.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.06 03:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 06/12/2010 02:55:00
Originally by: Headerman On paper it has 763 DPS to 67km with standard EMP, or 700 DPS even with barrage. 878 DPS with RF EMP
Please go learn how falloff works. At Optimal + 1/2 falloff you do ~80% of your turret DPS. At optimal + falloff, you do 40.5% of your turret DPS. After that its not even worth remembering. That is to say that your Vargur is doing ~350 DPS at your quoted 67km.
-Liang
Well there we go then.
And now for your turn: Doing 800 odd DPS at 120km was it, in a CNR?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.06 03:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Headerman
Well there we go then.
And now for your turn: Doing 800 odd DPS at 120km was it, in a CNR?
Did I e-stutter?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Motamiter
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Posted - 2010.12.06 03:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: MarvinJeni I fly both with very similar skills golem fit http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/21813-Golem-that-actually-has-TP-039-s.html
vargur fit http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/38466-Vargur-Angel-Cosmic-Anomalies.html two tacking comps with optimal scripts loaded instead of 2 sba now.
Just for comparison purposes i timed myself doing damsel in distress before the loot nerf and this is how it came out. Golem complete time about 14 mins Vargur complete time 12 mins
In the end its is up to you which you buy because the completion times are very close.
Damsel is what I would consider to be "close range" missions where auto-cannons do perform better . Try missions that have spawns further away like assault so missile's long range advantage are more prevalent and result will be different.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.06 04:05:00 -
[26]
I think i will have to train up Caldari BS next :S
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.06 04:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Headerman I think i will have to train up Caldari BS next :S
Just remember that fury missiles are kinda situational. You'll find that they can be used best against BS's, BC's, and Destroyers (lol). For cruisers you're going to want faction missiles for sure. In fact, the switch from Fury <-> Faction is annoying enough that some people just fit faction launchers with faction missiles and go from there and take the DPS hit from 838 -> 775. But, that 775 is much more consistent than the 838. Especially given you don't need anything more than CML 5 to get it.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Zeg Zeguso
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Posted - 2010.12.06 13:55:00 -
[28]
I like my "Low cost" fitting, only the Booster is expensive here.
But i use a complete crystal set, if i fly missions.
If someone tries to gank you because of the booster, **** happens, but normally you won't be podded in High sec space.
[Vargur, crystal] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5
911 defense omni
948 dps with emp, 1090 with faction (for me senseless, because too expensive) 4,3 + 77 fall off.
869 dps with barrage 8,5 + 115 fall off
Sorry for my bad English
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Zeg Zeguso I like my "Low cost" fitting, only the Booster is expensive here.
But i use a complete crystal set, if i fly missions.
If someone tries to gank you because of the booster, **** happens, but normally you won't be podded in High sec space.
[Vargur, crystal] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5
911 defense omni
948 dps with emp, 1090 with faction (for me senseless, because too expensive) 4,3 + 77 fall off.
869 dps with barrage 8,5 + 115 fall off
Sorry for my bad English
that fit will do just fine without the crystal set (would also do fine with a pithum c-type) . and I would expect someone would gank you just for the booster plus if it doesn't drop at least some of the gyros/TE should, and that will make losses pretty minimal for the gankers.
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Trebor Whettam
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/12/2010 09:24:42 Hmmm: Pro Vargur: - No 45km "seam" in your damage as you switch to Javs <-> CN Torps - Don't have to deal with managing 3 painters (you won't have to worry about counting volleys anyway with a Golem) - Easier to take frigs out on approach (OTOH, frigs are rightfully drone food) - Its a bit faster, and very slightly more agile. - Arguably, the Vargur doesn't depend as much on the Marauders skill
Pro Golem: - More DPS (Torps => Don't worry about defenders) - 100% Pure Damage Type Selection - Ability to do Kin damage - Higher sensor str => less time jammed by Guristas - Larger Cargo (this matters if you're looting drone missions or more than one mission at a go) - Cheaper ammo costs
-Liang
Ed: I prefer the Golem. But not by a lot.
Liang, where are you getting that extra 5km range on your faction missiles?
I wish I had a character that could fly a Vargur / Mach, because I'm really curious what all the hype is about. On paper, I just don't see how they keep up with the Golem/CNR tag-team, especially if ammo-cost isn't forgotten.
I think the biggest hindrances with the Golem are the steep skill requirements and the hassle of TPs. Honestly, TPs aren't that big of a deal to me unless I'm doing something intense with my other character. At, first it was almost a fun mini-game to use the missile flight time to my advantage and cheat off battleships. It didn't take long until managing the TPs was totally automatic.
There's no shaking the fact that the Golem requires more support skills than the other Marauders. Requires is the key word here. It just doesn't work without perfect missile range and near perfect TP / explosion velocity skills. It's not a gradual progression from very good to excellent like the Varg and Pali (lol Kronos). It's either mediocre or awesome with very little inbetween.
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