EVE Search - WE ARE FEED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!

Search EVE-Online forums for:

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

WE ARE FEED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 63 post(s)
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.06 12:26:00 - [1] Originally by: Malcanis When CCP start banning the accounts that buy ISK, we'll see a decline in RMT. But RMT is only half the story when it comes to botting. CCP seem to pretty much ignore botting as long as the ISK isn't sold. I agree and it doesn't help that so many players tend to think that botting = RMT as is evident by oh so many of the rage at bots/rmt threads. There isn't a simple, easy or perfect solution to RMT or botting but that doesn't stop the rage threads. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:31:00 - [2] Originally by: Myz Toyou Edited by: Myz Toyou on 06/12/2010 16:24:32 Originally by: Suitonia It is funny how many people whined and threadnaughted about Remaps for PLEX destroying the game, but only a fraction of those people are actively posting in this thread. they either: - busy with setting up their own bot clusters - smart enough to know that CCP has no real interest in stop the botting - know that CCP most likely will close all these threads and try to keep it under the carpet - still believe this all is a lie and think that bots dont exist - dont care - already unsubbed and moved over to WoT Personally I go with choice 2 + 3 I'm 2 + 3 and a bit of 4 because of my 2 + 3 leanings. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.08 14:33:00 - [3] Originally by: Gnulpie Stuff Right, kill off parts of EVE cause they are too easy to bot instead of trying to secure the client, lowering the cost of GTC and cracking down on buyers of RMT by getting tougher on them AND promoting the acceptable method of 'buying isk' in game. Oh and we should all take up to working for CCP while conversely paying them to play their game so WE can do their jobs and attack suspected bots, cause that is all we as players can do suspect someone is a bot, no **ing thanks. CCP gets out of providing the full use of PLEX/subscription for accounts they ban for RMT, so if 50 PLEX are used CCP didn't have to provide 50 full months of service on them, it could have been as little as a few days for each one or as long as it took for CCP to notice the RMT transactions were happening. Additionally CCP should very easily have numbers on how many accounts are likely bots in that they can see 23/7 activity in space, ie fighting NPCs, over just station spinners as well as very diligent scheduling that likely only a bot would have. That number represents how many accounts are paid for in advance every month, only CCP has those numbers and thus knows how much they make based off the premise that people will buy the RMT isk the owners are trying to sell, not sold, trying to sell before CCP finds them and shuts them down. I'd also add that saying that RMT sales = lost GTC sales is false, just as the RIAA saying music downloads equate to lost record sales, we don't know how many people would or wouldn't buy RMT isk if it didn't exist there isn't a one to one formula because the prices are different and people have different motivations for why they'd risk banning/getting put in the red over just getting it the game 'legal' way. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.09 11:20:00 - [4] Originally by: knobber Jobbler re: lowering cost of gtc: one that can't be done and 2, people in wormholes make to much money as it is, which is where some of the problem lies. stop botters and reduce wormhole profits and gtc may go down. but there are so many ways in eve to make vast sums of money with little effort if you have multiple accounts and you play more than a casual player. as a casual player the rise in gtc prices is welcome as I pvp and don't have time to grind anything, even null sec anoms. When I say lower GTC I'm talking about the real dollar cost to people not the otherside which is then PLEX ingame, that is not controlled by CCP. IF CCP lowers the cost for GTC the immediate effect is you get more isk per real dollar spent when selling PLEX, now the market can adjust to decrease that, counter productive to fighting RMT, but on the surface it is more competitive with the RMT people and lowers their profit margins as well as CCP but CCP can/may reclaim alleged 'lost' sales. Why a GTC price can't be lowered is beyond me $35 for 2 months game time at a rate of $17.50 per PLEX the regular monthly cost is $15 per month on monthly sub, $13 on a 3 month sub and $12 on a 6 month sub and $11 on a yearly plan. GTC have a $5 cost that could be 'dropped' to equal a real month of regular subscription time, or even dip to a 3 month cost or somewhere between the month and 3 month cost. Of course it wouldn't even need to be 'on the table' if CCP was more successful in stopping RMT and botting. We can argue that 'everyone' makes too much ISK from 00 moon goo/plex/rat chaining/etc to mission runners and so on the first thing and I see you acknowledge it is to stop the botting so that to make the isk you have to be present playing, more or less. It absolutely is FINE that if you have more than one account and play more than a casual player you make more than a casual player, how else should it be, you put in more effort/time and or money on subscriptions you should reap more benefit. The 'line' is that you shouldn't gain from misusing the system with bots/macros or be allowed to get away with RMT sales or buying and 'isk washing' it to keep for your main, that is the gain with little effort which isn't right. There may be 'too much isk' in the game and the only way to curb that is to aggressive stop botting/macros that artificially create ISK along with more ISK sinks, if that is done the isk in game will get consumed in time especially with all the WTF Supercap lag fests. CCP's approach seems to me will be "let's nerf isk creation and/or add more ISK sinks" rather than the real problem which is bots/macros generating it at inhuman rates. I have some hope CCP might be going in the right direction with the updates of recent but CCP hasn't inspired me that they are working on the problem and it may just be my wishful thinking as their past efforts and behavior shows me more a complicit attitude than one of fighting it on every front. If a player wants to spend all day/or days sitting in a chair or on a toilet not bathing or interacting with people in RL to generate their millions or billions that is fine it is when they let a program do it for them that we have a problem. In the end bots/macros will never go away but real efforts can be made to limit their prevalence and put the fear in people to not do it as they will get banned and lose their accounts/characters. Now it is IMO the view that people can 'get away with it' and that by taking certain steps they can insulate their mains from banning by various means, if that weren't true we wouldn't have as many isk billionaires or the RMT market still kicking as it is. TLDR: I want cornflakes. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ? A bot or macro makes ISK by abnormally and continuously doing things that make ISK in such a manner that a normal person could not do except for short stints aka marathon gaming sessions. Buying GTC converting them to PLEX and selling them doesn't make ISK at all, it simply transfers ISK created by a bot or a human to another account. So no they wouldn't be the same thing botting/macros create ISK and buying GTC selling PLEX transfers it. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Michwich ^^^ The difference being, the bot you buy from ccp will make 360million a month, instead of buying 360million isk from ccp you'll buy a bot which makes the same amount of isk but over a longer period of time. It will be cheaper. So now you have the option of buying isk whenver you want.. via plex for $15 or you can buy a bot for lets say $2 and it will give you the same amount of isk but at a slower rate. So now you got the options of buying isk flat out at a premium, or buying a bot for cheaper, or playing for free and earning it the hard way. Everyones covered. /me tosses poisoned troll food at Michwich. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Ganagati Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll *. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this. Indeed, because obviously the only way to make sure their client isn't being modified is to violate the user's machine and scan out what is being run, and interfere with it, instead of say securing their client and making it aware of when IT has been compromised. The difference between putting cameras outside your house to watch if your neighbor steps on your lawn, while also seeing into their yard, and shooting their dog cause he could take a dump on your flowers OR putting up a fence along with cameras that only have a view of your property. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.17 21:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/12/2010 19:11:40 Originally by: Mernek Originally by: Rasz Lin CCP doesn't sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to micro transaction model. Bold part is a bit naive. RL cash --> GTC --> PLEX --> ISK is CCP selling isk, it's just got some extra steps so some smart arse lawyer doesn't start clamoring for us to start paying tax on our isk irl. CCP isn't selling isk. They're selling something that can be exchanged for isk through a self balancing game mechanic. The differences may be subtle but they are important, and not only for the reason you offered: 1st Isk is not created by the transaction, which would dilute the value of isk; fueling inflation and the need for still more isk. The isk exchanged for the plex already exists within the game and is owned by another player. 2nd By trading plex across a player market, there is no fixed $$$ to isk ratio. If plex for isk becomes too popular, you get fewer isk for your RL money. If grind to play becomes too popular, then it costs progressively more isk to play. I wouldn't phrase it as Mernek did but in essence CCP is selling isk, because the transaction happens the exact same way as someone paying $ to a RMT to get isk from another party the 'farmer'. The isk used to purchase a PLEX in game is made in nearly every way that the isk made to sell to another player for $ is at no time do RMT magically create isk from thin air on their own, CCP's progam does that when farmed by bots/macros. The only exception to the two methods is stealing isk from other accounts, it can and probably does happen when used for PLEX in the cases of corp theft, or for people who share login info etc but isn't significant compared to RMT operators who go after account data and try to see if people use the same info across communities/sites as their EVE account. The difference we 'hope' between the two is that the isk made to buy plex is done so w/o bots/macros but we don't know since CCP seems not to be interested in making it harder for people who use bots/macros they are more interested in the accounts who sell isk, however it is made, for real money. And we hope the $ that CCP gets goes to bettering EVE and CCP so they are 'strong' to do what needs to be done, but once CCP gets your money or mine they can and will do whatever the ** they want with it, from getting into the console market, looking at making EVE f2p with micro-transactions or making a vampire game. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.18 06:57:00 - [9] Edited by: Bhattran on 18/12/2010 06:59:12 Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Baudolino Edited by: Baudolino on 17/12/2010 22:41:10 OP shamelessly copied and pasted a monologue from the movie V for Vendetta. The text is from the scene when V hijacks Britains national television signal to promote a national resistance on Guy Fawkes day - 5th November.. At least come up with something of your own- punk.. Good eye. Not really, nearly 2 weeks later and someone thought enough to post about it, I noticed that fact when I first saw this but thought the discussion, given the context, was worth more than a movie reference at least to me. EDITED TO ADD: Rian O'Shea beat him to it with an image link regarding the Movie. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.19 19:39:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. Read but not 100% believed, as you neglect to mention botting/macroing as CCP has been careful to make the distinction that you fight RMT and that violating the EULA is 'bad' but don't clearly say botting/macroing is 'bad' or that botting/macroing without RMT is still bad as CCP has so concisely linked RMT with botting as if they are the exact same thing. The position we see here on the forums and ingame reasserts the assumption/presumption that CCP doesn't care, being clear that you do and saying so without dancing around the subject as the dev blog does and more importantly the forum responses have in the past, as does your own 'the subject' no mention of botting/macros, along with a REAL devblog on what you are doing about botting/macros and providing some data beyond anti RMT ops and implying that RMT+botting are one in the same because we 'know' you work against RMT and as part of that get botters/macros. We also see what CCP aren't doing and when CCP won't say clearly that botting/macro use isn't permitted in the context of which we speak in this thread or allowed as part of playing the game you show us that you "don't care". I tend to imagine individual employees of CCP DO care, at least the ones who do the 'real' work but are constrained and limited to what they can and can't do, what projects they undertake by their 'superiors' and other high-ups who make the final decisions. That is MY optimistic view of the situation that things aren't done one way or another because it isn't up to the people who do the work to make the choices on what to add/work-on/fix/etc but I could be wrong, that's MY assumption. Maybe everyone over in CCP land is in unanimous agreement on how things are approached/worked on beyond the surface level that most people have to demonstrate as part of a 'team'/work environment once a direction is chosen, maybe not, I don't know. If this, dev blog, forum responses, lack of action against what would 'have' to be bots or extremely rich and thickheaded players sending their characters to get blown up over and over hour after hour, day after day, etc, is the 'best' CCP can do to convey the message that CCP is doing something/does care it falls on deaf ears, at least for me. I took offense that the devblog was the 'best' CCP could muster to address this 'subject' and barely mentions botting, provides no real information, and tempts me to 'lock it for no content' had I the power, but the opportunity to call a spade a spade is too great and it is just another example of how CCP hasn't handled this issue 'correctly' if they cared to do so. I hope the CSM has more luck in getting information from CCP during the next meeting, and one of several questions I'd like answered from a pure WTF POV is why CCP GM/DEV/etc won't say flat out that using macros or bots to play the game for you when you aren't at your client/without your being present is against the EULA and you will get banned, IF THAT IS THE CASE, because honestly I'm not sure and haven't seen a response from CCP clearing it up. Instead CCP respond to said inquires with re-posting the section of the EULA about macros which is vague and/or talk about RMT and banning players when RMT may have never been brought up or even be relevant. TLDR: Happy holidays. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--

Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.19 21:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Miss President Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuff stuff I recall seeing somewhere that using a third party software to gains you an unfair advantage over other players is illegal, so BOTs and Macros are illegal, it's just isn't much CCP want to do about, what about try? You did say something that I agree with, and I also mentioned it in my earlier posts about people working on this issue will not advance until their superiors decide they need to advance. I think a lot of front faces for CCP have a passion about the game, and try, but again without proper resource dedication from upper management nothing is getting done. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. Underline=Macro/bot talk Bold=Client Hack or 'lite client' creation depending on how they are implemented It can be interpreted as meaning if you A) Hack the client (it specifically mentions modifying it) or B) Are able to acquire 'benefits' at 'an accelerated rate' then it is 'game illegal' but CCP haven't ever expanded on that AFAIK. If you run a macro and don't hack the client in any way you're fine right? and if your macro/bot doesn't gain you anything at an accelerated rate, ie 'it' rats/missions/mines/whatever at the same rate a human would do those things you are 'fine' too because they don't violate 'ordinary game play' right, since it would work exactly as if you were there doing it. The 'argument' CCP hasn't made is that the use of such a program is 'at an accelerated rate' over 'normal' play or that playing for 23.5 hours a day is 'an accelerated rate' where has CCP what 'an accelerated rate' is?, The answer is they haven't they (CCP employess) post that bit or refer to it as if there were no loopholes or other ways it could be read/interpreted and clearly there are. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.22 20:27:00 - [12] Botting doesn't always lead to RMT or isk sales, which I believe CCP works against, but it kind of makes sense if you are botting away piling up billion on billions of isk you'd probably then think "why not sell this **?" since there is only so much isk you 'need' anyway. So some of those people probably do that but not all, the others are smarter to just bot away and have unlimited isk to do what they want. It is the issue of players using bots to make isk for themselves that is the issue CCP repeatedly is seen as ignoring, because it doesn't compete with their product Game Time Codes converted to PLEX and sold ingame for ISK. Bottom line CCP seems to look the other way for botting when no Real Money Transactions are involved because those botting use up PLEX, decreasing the stock piles on the market, less PLEX on market means higher ISK return on real money spent for them, which means CCP's option to 'buy' isk gets closer to the RMT prices. The 'cost' to CCP is continued sources of 'isk' for RMT, competition for 'isk' sales, bad PR from players who see the problem, a set number of what must be thousands, probably ten thousand or so of 'subscribers' who tax their HW by botting regularly, a false sense of how many people actually play their game, among others. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.01 23:26:00 - [13] Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace I have to say that 99% of posts on the subject of bots are made by people who have no fking clue what they are talking about. If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them, and I am not just talking about an idea.. actually go and create it. To fight the problem you actually have to have a clear understanding on exactly how bots work which many people here have demonstrated they don't have a clue. The majority of bots work using OCR(optical character recognition) macros, such as Tiny Miner, Stealth miner etc etc. At there basic level they just copy a serious of mouse and keyboard inputs and then just repeat them. So the most effective way is to run the Eve Client and the bot program within a virtual environment so that you can use you computer without disturbing Eve. The other method is by using Python Injection. Again at its most basic level this allows you to inject new python code straight into the game client. People have talked about using a program like Warden... well those people have no idea how Warden works and what a massively abuse to your privacy it is. Take a look for yourselves. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/10/blizzard_entert.html It doesn't make a difference to what you do in game as this will have no effect as the bots will just be able to replicate it. Changes would have to be made to the client... what changes I don't know.... I have never claimed to know but only that it would be very difficult, a lot more difficult then some people think. You didn't say it but in typical internet style I must retort you think it is too hard and we should all shut up and accept CCP's buy PLEX as the solution for botting. I haven't seen people say it is 'so easy' I do see people saying it is too hard. Some people do say use warden/punkbuster some say try other things, like you know looking at the programs being used and figure out how to counter them. I'm on the side that if CCP secured their client better along with doing things like analyzing 'player' behavior they could detect with great accuracy who's likely to be a bot. There are other ideas in this thread as well as others that have promise and only CCP can determine what will or won't work I'd hope they wouldn't choose warden/punkbuster 'easy street' crap but use some element to have their client resist tampering or detect a stripped down version being used to play the game. I don't know what would or wouldn't work but it seems that CCP has largely ignored this problem and if they put some real effort they could do a lot, at least for a while, and if they then continued to do things like randomizing data fields so bot users couldn't so easily read client data that might make it harder to run bots. If CCP keeps working to make botting harder botters have to work to keep up and that helps the 'fight' sitting there and waiting for RMT to happen isn't fighting botting, it is letting people amass so much isk they reach the point of real life greed and try to cash in and not everyone will do that. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.14 18:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: CSM CCP Minutes Discussion then turned to the issue of botting and RMT, and what could be done to reduce their impact on the game. As this discussion involved potential countermeasures, it is sealed under NDA. Source I find it funny how out of the whole thing this discussion was the shortest, I understand that you cant tell us some stuff but you could have atleast told us the following. 1. Will macro ratting and macro mining be targeted 2. When can players expect to see a change 3. Can incursions be changed to affect botting (ie warp jamming etc) The CSM have already stated that CCP have said they would look into RMT in 2011 or so, which sounds really bad, is this still the case or will CCP look at both RMT & botting THIS YEAR CCP, will hide behind the NDA on all those points as they might tip botters off when in reality the answer is probably something more like they aren't going after them unless RMT is involved, change will happen once they pencil in a team and allocate people to actually do something. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.15 03:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Solena Rain Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: CSM CCP Minutes Discussion then turned to the issue of botting and RMT, and what could be done to reduce their impact on the game. As this discussion involved potential countermeasures, it is sealed under NDA. Source I find it funny how out of the whole thing this discussion was the shortest, I understand that you cant tell us some stuff but you could have atleast told us the following. 1. Will macro ratting and macro mining be targeted 2. When can players expect to see a change 3. Can incursions be changed to affect botting (ie warp jamming etc) The CSM have already stated that CCP have said they would look into RMT in 2011 or so, which sounds really bad, is this still the case or will CCP look at both RMT & botting THIS YEAR CCP, will hide behind the NDA on all those points as they might tip botters off when in reality the answer is probably something more like they aren't going after them unless RMT is involved, change will happen once they pencil in a team and allocate people to actually do something. "They aren't going after them" first, terrible sentence structure, second reading and comprehension is not your strong point is it? Incursion is directly targeting botters. Are you not aware of the new features? Thanks, you might look at your own reading comprehension and understanding of the situation with botting and game mechanics if you think Incursions is directly targeting botters. Incursions at best will be a minor annoyance to botters for the time they last if the botters don't leave the systems affected. They will be far more of a 'problem' for real players grinding with limited time to play who don't move, over bots that run hours on end everyday. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.31 03:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Priestess Natasha Edited by: Priestess Natasha on 31/01/2011 02:29:55 Warden is not foolproof. shadow.sys, a glider tool, hides glider inside a rootkit of sorts. To this day Blizzard has not been able to break it. They shut down glider via a DCMA/Copyright suit and mostly won. However upon appeal, that I just read, looks like Glider will be up and running again after 2 years. Woot! Eve's UI is the worst for enabling botting. Specifically the overview. I can sort it, position it, filter it. It's a scripters dream. The things I want will always be in exactly the same place, but better, is if there's nothing on my filtered overview, then I can just move on. I know how one of the popular mining script works, it's a very simple pixel search type of deal. Again the overview is the bad seed here. R/Click menus, bookmark tabs, Overview, there's never any variance. Thus extremely simple to find the element you're looking for. I don't claim to know how some unnamed eve rattingbot works, but if it's doing more than pixel scans, as in reading memory or injecting python directly to the client, then that's fixable in the very short term by some sort of wardenesque spyware. Short term until someone either breaks the warden type software, or they simply hide thier processes from it. The overview is the main culprit for scripting things to shoot at. And local is the main culprit for giving a very certain unvarying event that the script can react to. Regarding the "time based bans". Once it's determined what the safe time levels are, there's nothing to stop a rotating roster of bots. If the safe time is 8 hours, fine..I'll run 3 bots. (I'm putting myself in a hardcore botters shoes here) Triple the number of accounts it takes to do it? They don't care, the income far exceeeds the lolPLEXprice. Time based or activity based flags wont work. BTW you can easily script a GM reply. That's been happening since EasyUO was state of the art. Purely time based aren't a solution but they could be part of a pattern detection system to flag the ones you want to look further into, same with analyzing behavior, if a ship warps to safe(stops what it is doing) every time someone enters the system then sits there cloaked or docked etc for a set time every time that is a flag, you also note anyone it doesn't 'run' from. If a character logs in everyday at the same time for the same amount of time doing the same thing, that is a flag, if it never deviates from its activity (no browser, no email, no market, etc) that is a flag and so on. Nothing is 100% but there are many things that can be built upon to discover patterns that ultimately lead to more investigation or just an abundance of 'proof' even if circumstantial that something isn't quite right. At best the people flagged have no lives/jobs/responsibilities or at worst are bots/share accounts. As far as getting by a GM convo I'm sure if there are standard can queries it is easy, might not be so easy if there were more interactive and creative conversations happening. Imagine asking the 'bot' to name their favorite animal, what color is it, what does it eat, I type "door, two, fox, boot, seven" and ask "what animal did I type", and so on. Of course playing the "I don't speak that language" act is an issue but that can also be another flag dependent upon the other flags. Further tactics could be as GM I suspect you of being a bot, I alter your systems rack and swap your weapons/mining lasers with your lower rack or vice versa, if you were there you'd notice sooner or later, if not it would spend hours trying to cycle/uncycle the wrong things. Certainly if the UI is problematic there is then a method to 'fight' them, even doing things like changing names of references in it, with proper Q/A could make reading from it more difficult and require more maintenance by botters. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.31 17:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Senily Originally by: Bhattran Purely time based aren't a solution but they could be part of a pattern detection system to flag the ones you want to look further into, same with analyzing behavior, if a ship warps to safe(stops what it is doing) every time someone enters the system then sits there cloaked or docked etc for a set time every time that is a flag, you also note anyone it doesn't 'run' from. If a character logs in everyday at the same time for the same amount of time doing the same thing, that is a flag, if it never deviates from its activity (no browser, no email, no market, etc) that is a flag and so on. Nothing is 100% but there are many things that can be built upon to discover patterns that ultimately lead to more investigation or just an abundance of 'proof' even if circumstantial that something isn't quite right. At best the people flagged have no lives/jobs/responsibilities or at worst are bots/share accounts. Very laughable... I log a certain Pilot in every day at exactly the same time, and perform exactly the same tasks, and warp to a safe spot if someone enters the system. In fact, I do this with 3 pilots every day It is called PI management Oh, and it is because I DO have a Job and responsibilities that I do it this way lol. Stay with me, if you did it with machine accuracy every time day after day that would be a 'flag', one of many, priority going to those who spend hours doing repetitive activities. That could all be further streamlined to ratting/missioning (bounty activities) or mining (roids/belts) or focused on things like a 'trader' that makes market changes all day always updating orders that have become 'outdated' exactly after a set time. A 'flag' is simply something used as an indicator, accumulation of several flags or meeting the requirements for a specific flag like being online for 12hrs a day every day, same time, same system, exact 'same' activity etc could be the kick to have GM investigate, through further study or the GM 'convo'/messing with your racks. All flagging is supposed to do is offer a way to alleviate some of the burden that is pretty much on the players to report and detect 'bots' by spending our time looking for them. Why should I or any other player take on the mantle of doing CCP's job to fight botting when there are other ways for them to fight it, in this thread and others, not all are going to be effective and might not be feasible but the solution isn't to ignore it. CCP has the data or at least has access to it, this is a method to help them find possible bots, laughable is the apparent efforts of CCP and their attitude in regards to this issue. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.31 23:53:00 - [18] Originally by: PhoenixofMT Originally by: Last few posters Stuff... Originally by: Senily Originally by: Bhattran Stuff... My turn.... stay with me.. in the year 2011, Automation software can get this.. randomize!! Part of what I do as my job, is Automate tedious tasks for other people using computers. Some of the code I use, incorporates Randomization.. Hmm, what a concept! Honestly, I get a kick out of all the ideas people brew up in these over exagerated threads. Yes, there are some very good ideas, but people need to realize just how sophisticated some of the new automation software really is, and how creating a challenge for the "Bot" authors only results in a higher cost to the person that purchases it. Want to stop RMT and Bots? seriously? then remove the thing they cater to. Make all Currency NO TRADE Make all Items NO TRADE As long as there is a free and open economy, free market, then, people are going to find ways to cheat, automate, bot, and all of the rest of the things that real life economies offers, that includes scamming and stealing. Senily, The point of my suggestion is to reduce the effectiveness of the bot (i.e. its ability to mine/rat/whatever for extended periods) to be more in line with your style of play. If the bots have to act more like real humans (i.e. get tired after 5 hours, can't do more than 1 23 hour marathon a month, have to leave the house for a few hours most days, etc.) 1. They will be closer to the letter, if not the spirit, of the EULA clause on macros. 2. Their impact on the economy will more closely match that of your above average miner. The problem hasn't gone away, but it has been reduced in severity. I suppose the response to this would be more accounts running bots to make up for it, but there has to be a break over point somewhere. At some point the number of bot accounts supported with PLEX has to become too expensive to be worth it. The sheer number of clients required for one person to remain profitable would be unrealistic? Again, someone with better access to stats/more experience with play-for-free might be able to give better insight on this. I'm glad I've managed to spark some proper discussion here. The last few posts have been a refreshing dose of rational thought as opposed to emotional rants. Keep it up. -- Phoenix Phoenix sums up part of the 'point' of fighting bots IMO, making them 'act' more like regular players so they don't get all the benefits of being able to play 'all the time' or at 'inhuman' rates, I'd add that they should also have to continually 'adapt' or update their programs so it isn't a one time 'cost/effort' to get it setup and go. Yes Senily there can be randomization but it is an extra step, even if is a 'minor' one to add because it is yet another thing the botter/bot maker has to 'deal' with. To really make use of it in more than a handful of aspects the bots would become more like a 'normal' player and thusly reap less rewards. Simply shifting your 400million isk income or 2 billion m3 volume of ore sessions around during the day or week or month still can be looked at and made to toss a flag. As far as removing the open market it is one of EVE's strengths and CCP likes the scamming/stealing aspects of gameplay it makes EVE what it is. I don't expect to ever have bots be 100% dead and that isn't the point IMO, I'm sure others may want that at any cost but not me, I want them actively 'fought' and made to keep updating/reworking their cheats rather than sitting back after doing it once or x times for each character/account. I'd think another thing to combat botting, is making gameplay less susceptible to their use, more dynamic and interactive gameplay so it isn't so easy to script or boring you want to script it. While RMT is a part of the issue I am focusing on botting as it is here where CCP isn't really motivated as they already work against their competition for player's cash. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.02.24 10:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Jasper Dark Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28 Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19 Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations. This won't stop botting in 0.0. But most likely stop botting in empire. Limiting access to NPC corps to only lvl1 agents. Oh the horrors that will cause!!! EDIT: Or raise NPC tax when wunnign higher lvl agents and quality. How about we eliminate space holding sovereignty that allows these bots to own space, rent space, etc and be hidden from all but their 'allies'? Nerf moons once and for all, same to 00 rat bounty, and chaining. Or CCP could not take the easy lazy route of doing 'nothing' like they do now or either of our simple solutions and try several of the other solutions presented throughout this thread that actually seek to make botting less profitable, PVE more interactive along with securing their client, etc. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.02.28 12:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Arnakoz Edited by: Arnakoz on 28/02/2011 03:40:00 Originally by: Kizz Amarr CCP are responsible for the mechanics of the game. It is their baby so to speak. CCP understand the mechanics of the game can be used by third party software to play the game in the absense of a 'hands-on' player and/or in coordination with a hands-on player. Therefore, CCP are permitting the users to employ third party software to play the game. The game belongs to CCP, they own it and have the right to change it at will. AS they clearly acknowledge third party software is permitted to run on their platform, they are supporting it. If they support it, so can the players. The difference between a player and CCP, CCP Own the game, Players pay to play a game in accordance with CCP's Rules. your logic would only work if there were actually a way to stop bots. simple matter of the fact is that nothing they do will stop it. lets go thru the ropes here.. CCP: make it so that people mining have to enter a code or answer a question every so often. Bots: will implement already-existing captcha software. CCP: starts tracking the times and activities of miners Bots: start randomizing delays and logging in/out at different times CCP: allows players to issue 2 hour no-mining bans for suspected botting Bots: add courier mission abilities for those time frames. CCP: adds spyware on players computers, like blizzard. Bots: use languages and functions not detected by spyware. or even hack spyware itself to spoof OK responses. CCP: covertly collects a massive list of bot accounts and perma-bans them all at once. bots: haha, ccp just lost 60% of its player base and broke the market into pieces. lets get some more accounts set up! CCP: randomizes buttons and dropdown menus. bots: add OCR to software. i could go on forever. but hopefully you get my point by now. They don't have to stop all bots, that is unrealistic, if they can force botters to make their bots 'work' at more human rates not 23/7, not 10+ hrs a day THAT is a 'victory' with more work CCP can detect those that run on set schedules and force some randomization which further can reduce their effectiveness. Through detecting of isk transfers they can shut them down and botters need more bots to keepup or botting declines. More bots working 'less' hours each still leaves them vulenrable to detection and banning, this lowers the ROI on making new accounts and starting over botting. Even if CCP can't break botting like that they can force botters to do more than make a program, tweak the script then bot for 6-12 months before they have to make an adjustment to it. The more downtime botters have to deal with both in keeping their programs updated and in actual playtime the more CCP 'wins' the bot war. If they slack off then botters adapt and continue. RMT bots have more of a stake in a long term ROI with less hours of running bots and more accounts the casual player or non RMT botter who doesn't have the same stake where they are just trying to get isk for 'free' they are much more deterred by a delay in ROI over a RMT botter. The defeatist attitude gets us nothing, you don't 'win' by giving up, unless all you are interested in is not fighting. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--

Bhattran	Posted - 2011.03.02 02:48:00 - [21] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05 Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals. CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values. Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it? I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week. CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this. I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy. I understand that there's a lot of concern in the community about this particular issue. I'm rather concerned myself. Let's not pretend however that simply because I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well or that because my posts were in the early stages of a large thread, that we're ignoring the issue. We've said precisely the opposite and we have nothing to gain from lying to you. It's a complex issue which requires a careful solution, whether it appears that way outwardly or not. I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more. I remember this was the response we got: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=832 A glorified ad to buy plex, more talk about RMT as if the only botting that happens ties in with RMT and a touch of blame on players for not buying plex. Yes it is a complex issue and one that doesn't get solved overnight but it is one you SHOULD have been working on without us poking you, yet it still seems there is little done or that it isn't effective. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Ai Shun Originally by: Don Kartel restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported. Please, no. I keep different Hyper-V based VM's for different purposes. That way I can snapshot and drag them to any node as I need to reallocate resources, etc. Banning the use of technology isn't the real answer to the problem. Well certain technology DOES need to get 'banned' but I agree targeting VMware isn't the solution. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.03.04 17:35:00 - [23] Originally by: G 0 D Edited by: G 0 D on 04/03/2011 17:03:12 I do not understand why so many people hate bottters, when the game has PLEX and everyone can RMT as much as they want legitamelty through CCP's hands? Everyone with RL money can have unlimated isk, so I dont exactly understand why so many are complaining about the unfair advantage they have. Eve isn't really a competitive mmo at all, because it is both P2P and has a cash shop (PLEX) It's basically a pay to win game that you also have to pay for monthly. If you are actually honest about your question the answer is in this thread and similar ones that are probably locked by now or just archived, some of the RMT/plex issues were also addressed in the microtranaction threads. Honestly it has been discussed from everyone's POV plex=rmt plex=rmt (with strings), plex!=rmt, and so on. Your summation is partially correct on numerous other levels that have nothing to do with Pay to play and the 'non competitive' aspect BUT going on your premise should players accept the 'unfairness' from bots AS well as all the other issues? I and I think most if not all the people who want CCP to work harder on fighitng botting would say no we shouldn't accept players cheating there are enough 'legitimate' ways to get ahead. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.03.06 04:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Ozwald Rens I think you are missing one easy angle to detect botting: instead of checking for the actual bot programme running, you can simply check for bot-like behaviour (online 23/7, always warps out when somebody jumps into system, etc) - sure, this could in principle affect a "real person", in that case, i'm sure a manual check up will resolve the issue. Plus, CCP could always implement a system that asks a player to enter a captcha if they are to bot-like for a prolonged period of time. (this by the way, has been done successfully in online poker as well) Everything you mention has been mentioned before and none of the 'easy angles' are automatic guaranteed to give you a bot, unless you find a character running 23/7 for 5+ days, not online, but in game running missions/mining/ratting with no time to sleep, shower, deficate, eat, etc. The rest of the 'easy angles' are only going to point to suspects that have to be further monitored and a manual check won't clear the suspects. So you were there when the captcha appeared, which many have said can be handled by bots, does that mean you aren't botting? Bot detection starts with narrowing down all accounts to ones that are suspect then investigating them further through more suspicious behavior/data being collected. Either there will appear a 100% 'got you' like 20days of 23/7 'active' playing', or exacting routines that point to a scripted behavior, or you have to further investigate with things like GM convo requests, or other GM interventions like dumping your ship 10 jumps away, jamming it, having real conversations, etc. Short of that you'd need to look at the client's machine, or client, to see bot programs running if that is even effective and can't be circumvented. Getting suspects is 'easy' narrowing them down to the actual bots and 'proving' it is not in any case where the botter actually puts effort into not being caught red handed. Beyond all that is fundamentally changing the game so botting isn't effective, as in revamping PVE mechanics. Talk of making mining require more interaction through scanning roids and 'hot spots' or 'empty roids' staying on grid that when mined return nothing, etc. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.