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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Bhattran
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Posted - 2011.03.02 02:48:00 -
[1411]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05
Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals.
CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values.
Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it?
I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week.
CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this.
I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy.
I understand that there's a lot of concern in the community about this particular issue. I'm rather concerned myself. Let's not pretend however that simply because I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well or that because my posts were in the early stages of a large thread, that we're ignoring the issue. We've said precisely the opposite and we have nothing to gain from lying to you.
It's a complex issue which requires a careful solution, whether it appears that way outwardly or not. I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more.
I remember this was the response we got:
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=832
A glorified ad to buy plex, more talk about RMT as if the only botting that happens ties in with RMT and a touch of blame on players for not buying plex.
Yes it is a complex issue and one that doesn't get solved overnight but it is one you SHOULD have been working on without us poking you, yet it still seems there is little done or that it isn't effective.
--WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.-- |
Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.03.02 03:14:00 -
[1412]
Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:17:33 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:16:39 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:15:42
Quote: Originally by: EphemeronWithin 1 week of intensive analysis CCP could identify near 100% of all the bot farmers.
Start with the assumption that someone who bots professionally will have multiple accounts. Check for multiple accounts connected thru 1 IP. That filters out most regular people already.
I have 2 accounts... by this logic, Im immediately guilty till proven innocent?
Quote: Originally by: Ephemeron Of those that left, get all those that NPC'ed for more than 1 hour in the week. Of those that left, check if 2+ accounts of same IP have NPCed at the same time (not just 1 ratting, 1 salvaging, but both ratting)
One of my accounts is a pure missioner... I mission every day for more than 8 hrs a day on that guy... the other is pure miner. Guess what I do on that guy?
Quote:
Of those that left, get all those that transferred isk from farming accounts to any other account. Of those that left, check if the account that received money was actively played while 2+ other accounts were ratting.
LOL I regularly xfer isk to my missioner, who I use as a bank...
Damn dude, by your examples, Im botting while Im actively AT MY KEYBOARD
see why your idea is fail?
------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.03.02 04:48:00 -
[1413]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy.
Actions speak louder than words, and your continued inaction speaks volumes.
Considering how little your gms are doing against known botters, your inaction is but an endorsement to botting.
My watchlist of botting characters in Shadow of xXDEATHXx alone broke 100 pilots online after a day of roaming around their space. Some of them have been doing their thing for months.
I would also like to highlight the 1d bans gms are using as band-aids against denounced characters. Very effective. You're being laughed at by botters on publicly viewable forums..
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.02 06:11:00 -
[1414]
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:17:33 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:16:39 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:15:42
Quote: Originally by: EphemeronWithin 1 week of intensive analysis CCP could identify near 100% of all the bot farmers.
Start with the assumption that someone who bots professionally will have multiple accounts. Check for multiple accounts connected thru 1 IP. That filters out most regular people already.
I have 2 accounts... by this logic, Im immediately guilty till proven innocent?
Quote: Originally by: Ephemeron Of those that left, get all those that NPC'ed for more than 1 hour in the week. Of those that left, check if 2+ accounts of same IP have NPCed at the same time (not just 1 ratting, 1 salvaging, but both ratting)
One of my accounts is a pure missioner... I mission every day for more than 8 hrs a day on that guy... the other is pure miner. Guess what I do on that guy?
Quote:
Of those that left, get all those that transferred isk from farming accounts to any other account. Of those that left, check if the account that received money was actively played while 2+ other accounts were ratting.
LOL I regularly xfer isk to my missioner, who I use as a bank...
Damn dude, by your examples, Im botting while Im actively AT MY KEYBOARD
see why your idea is fail?
You didn't read to the end. All that stuff just puts you on suspect list. In the end, it all leads to a GM sending you a convo and you either answering it or not. If you answer, nothing happens.
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Archbeholder
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Posted - 2011.03.02 06:38:00 -
[1415]
Originally by: Burnharder Just out of interest, are bots rife in WOW? How do other MMO's deal with this problem?
WOW has multiply ingame currencies, botters can only grind for gold. Since most items in wow are bind on acquire, gold is used on misc items such as potions and stuff. So in the even if there are MORE botters in WOW, they don't affect other players nearly as much as in EVE.
So in the end WOW economy > EVE economy :D
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.02 07:22:00 -
[1416]
Originally by: Nina Mercedez Sweet, only 12 deleted replies so far.
The original thread will stay on eve-search.com in its unmodded form.
Easy enough for people to go look at what was REALLY said, rather than the CCP version of events.
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Everard Headbutt
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Posted - 2011.03.02 08:08:00 -
[1417]
Originally by: CCP Adida Removed discussions regarding moderation. If you have an issue on how something was handled please submit a petition.
CCP really hasn't learned **** all from the T20 fiasco has it.
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Kogh Ayon
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Posted - 2011.03.02 10:37:00 -
[1418]
Originally by: Archbeholder
Originally by: Burnharder Just out of interest, are bots rife in WOW? How do other MMO's deal with this problem?
WOW has multiply ingame currencies, botters can only grind for gold. Since most items in wow are bind on acquire, gold is used on misc items such as potions and stuff. So in the even if there are MORE botters in WOW, they don't affect other players nearly as much as in EVE.
So in the end WOW economy > EVE economy :D
Touche. I'm planning to buy a leveled WOW account now
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.02 11:51:00 -
[1419]
Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 11:51:47
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreegs, thnks for the comment.
One reason there has been so much rage for so long in this thread is your last comment was not a few weeks ago, but almost 3 MONTHS ago, somewhat longer then what most would say is "a few weeks".
Apparently to them 12 or so is a "few"
Botting was also mentioned in a Dev blog on January 20th. This isn't meant as an excuse. I could come here every day and make an obligatory post that says "Hey guys! STILL WORKIN!" but ultimately that's just silly and I'm not going to. That doesn't make a single bot go away any more than replying to every post I ever make on the topic with "DUDE YOUR FACE LMAO" or "YOUR WRONG" does. What being rude does do however is make it less likely that I'll take your thread or post seriously and attempt to give you what information I can.
Dealing with this problem correctly can't happen overnight (or even in a few weeks/months). Sure we could oversimplify the issue and come up with a magical list of accounts that we think could be bots, or have a squad of GMs staring at people all day based on a few reports, but at the end of the day would that really solve the issue? I think we need to be careful to make a distinction between effecting real change in the environment and creating a pile of sacrificial lambs. I have no interested in banning a pile of accounts to make a thread go away. (On that note GMs do spend quite a bit of time on bot-related work, whether you've personally observed the results or disagreed with the penalties)
I said you'll have some solid information by Fanfest as that's when I have time scheduled to start talking about some of the work we're doing to end the cycle of botting(among other things). For an example of what I mean about the entire cycle you can look to the pretty diagrams in my dev blog Here on phishing. There's no magic algorithm for "bot". There's no single line of code I can add to "remove bot". It makes no sense to have 30 GMs staring at a screen to "detect bot". What does make sense is analyzing the entire problem with a team of individuals and building a very carefully conceived and executed framework that attacks the problem from multiple angles at once, which is our approach. |
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Florestan Bronstein
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Posted - 2011.03.02 12:06:00 -
[1420]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs What being rude does do however is make it less likely that I'll take your thread or post seriously and attempt to give you what information I can.
Now that's some professional customer service.
You could have just told us in very broad terms what you are working at (hardening the client?, better server-side detection routines?, more/better trained GM staff to deal with the issue? how confident are you that you fully understand the impact of botting on the economy of EVE? maybe you can provide us with some figures that convince us it is in CCP's own financial interest to get rid off bots? ...) and this thread would only be half its size. Most people actually want to believe that CCP does care but you simply don't give them much opportunity to do so.
Every comment by CCP seems to be designed to pour some additional fuel into the fire of customer rage.
CCP has designed this great game that is all about risk vs reward, moral ambiguity and an "ends justify the means" approach to PvP - the perception that EULA rules on botting are not strictly enforced could have a much bigger impact on the average EVE player's behavior than it would have on the typical player of most other MMOs.
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.03.02 12:16:00 -
[1421]
on a more important topic:
i want to know whats being done about the folks that can hide themselves from the local chat until they are ready to attack. if anything in this game creates an unfair pvp experience its that. i've already gone over how botting just doesn't have the massive effect that some think. but i can't think of a single "it doesn't really matter, because..." argument for filtering packets that show a player being in local. in all cases its just plain wrong.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:02:00 -
[1422]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Originally by: CCP Sreegs What being rude does do however is make it less likely that I'll take your thread or post seriously and attempt to give you what information I can.
Now that's some professional customer service.
You could have just told us in very broad terms what you are working at (hardening the client?, better server-side detection routines?, more/better trained GM staff to deal with the issue? how confident are you that you fully understand the impact of botting on the economy of EVE? maybe you can provide us with some figures that convince us it is in CCP's own financial interest to get rid off bots? ...) and this thread would only be half its size. Most people actually want to believe that CCP does care but you simply don't give them much opportunity to do so.
Every comment by CCP seems to be designed to pour some additional fuel into the fire of customer rage.
CCP has designed this great game that is all about risk vs reward, moral ambiguity and an "ends justify the means" approach to PvP - the perception that EULA rules on botting are not strictly enforced could have a much bigger impact on the average EVE player's behavior than it would have on the typical player of most other MMOs.
I hadn't really considered customer service in that particular quote so much as "This is how you talk to people on the internet or otherwise if you really want to have a conversation". The Golden Rule. Common sense one might say. If the content of a post is nothing more than a snarky remark or insult then one shouldn't wave one's hands 10 pages later screaming "NOBODYS RESPONDING TO MY SERIOUS CONCERN TROLL". The remark wasn't directed at everyone who IS genuinely concerned and in many ways has every right to be angry when they feel others have an unfair advantage over them or is cheating in-game. I agree with the fact that there's a problem that needs to be resolved and if you feel you have a right to be upset about it then you do. We can do that without being big meanies.
The team that's working on this problem was being put together long before this thread ever existed. The reason I haven't given you more information is that it was still being formulated and in many cases there are things related to botting and how we deal with it that just won't be public information except in the broadest sense. Hell, things are still going to be in some form of change even a year from now. As I've said, this isn't a one-off process.
I believe we fully understand the implications of botting on a particular scale and I also believe as you do that we have a very special product that does indeed amplify those effects. The very large ripple and that very real impact (to grossly oversimplify) are a big part of the reason why we need to be very careful with how we handle the problem. |
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:06:00 -
[1423]
Originally by: Arnakoz on a more important topic:
i want to know whats being done about the folks that can hide themselves from the local chat until they are ready to attack. if anything in this game creates an unfair pvp experience its that. i've already gone over how botting just doesn't have the massive effect that some think. but i can't think of a single "it doesn't really matter, because..." argument for filtering packets that show a player being in local. in all cases its just plain wrong.
While I'll welcome an email to [email protected] if you have any information about this occurring I will say that as part of this same process we're improving the security of the client and, I would think understandably, we can't get into specifics about that but we'll be addressing it as part of the same topic at Fanfest. |
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:10:00 -
[1424]
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Do you mean game design by that? If so, would you agree that PI should have never been designed the way it went live?
And if you agree that game design is the root problem, will there be "iterations" to designs that are either directly promoting botting (courier missions, PI, mining) or are extremely profitable (belt ratting in drone regions, sanctum tengus everywhere else).
Also, does that "framework" include something better than 1d temp bans for known bots without confiscation of the resources they cheated?
The team is cross-functional and game-design is included. I won't comment on PI one way or another as I'm The Security Guy, not the Game Design Guy and I also don't agree that game design is the root problem. I don't believe the end result you're seeing of the broad topic of "botting" has any one root cause, which is why you see some people going BOTTING IS CAUSED BY RMT, and others going BOTTING IS BECAUSE OF GAME DESIGN! There's overlap with a lot of different things that all need to be addressed.
I will say that "Framework" would insinuate the elimination of the problem over time, but I won't address whether any one specific measure will change, though you can be pretty certain what you're referring to will. |
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Florestan Bronstein
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:21:00 -
[1425]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs ...
just want to say "thank you" for that reply
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Fellblade
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:24:00 -
[1426]
Thanks for the replies
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.03.02 14:19:00 -
[1427]
First off, thanks for taking your time to respond.
I must disagree with you that game design is not the root cause of the current botting problem. While there are other problems like negligence from the Gms or the python injection hole, they are not the root cause but merely side problems. Even widespread acceptance of bots does have a cause somewhere.
If you look at the most common bot types, you'll notice that without exception the automated tasks are those which are extremely mechanical in nature. Mining and PI being the poster childs of mechanical "gameplay". Both can be automated with autohotkey scripts, that's how devoid of interaction they are.
The root cause of all botting anywhere is where game design promotes mechanical repetition of steps. Whether it is aiming at heads or moving items from one place to another in regular intervals.
Good game design kills off any attemts at automation as a mere side effect. If PI was a pallette swapped settlers 2, you wouldn't encounter any worthwhile bots for it, especially if it was competitive. Good game design requires strategical decisions from the player. It's what some of the most famous games are built on entirely. "Just one more turn" doesn't occur because one wants to do the same repetitive steps over and over again, but because all the time there are decisions that require thought.
As you might have noticed, autohotkey is pretty bad at making decisions. More elaborate setups don't get over the stage of branching paths and simple scripts either.
So to reiterate, there is a root cause, being game design. The problems that have arisen from that root cause are, however, complex. If you just pull the plug on the drone region bots, the market for highmins will be funny for weeks to months. The problem has been ignored for so long that is has become an integral part of Eve. Untangling it is a pretty difficult job and past precedent of ccp's game design capabilities isn't exactly showing promise. Your gms are universially terrible too. (nice job legitimizing ddosing players via convo requests btw., much appreciated)
In closing, I wish you luck fighting against the two most unbreakable barriers Eve has in addition to botting itself. You'll need it. |
Shandir
Minmatar EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:19:00 -
[1428]
Edited by: Shandir on 02/03/2011 15:19:48
Originally by: CCP Sreegs I won't comment on PI one way or another as I'm The Security Guy, not the Game Design Guy and I also don't agree that game design is the root problem.
Can you get the most "Game design guy" working on this problem to give us at least a broad overview of what's on the table? Edit: For PI, and other similarly straightforward tasks.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:20:00 -
[1429]
Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 15:21:58
Originally by: Shandir
Originally by: CCP Sreegs I won't comment on PI one way or another as I'm The Security Guy, not the Game Design Guy and I also don't agree that game design is the root problem.
Can you get the most "Game design guy" working on this problem to give us at least a broad overview of what's on the table?
I could but if you'll notice I'm trying to avoid being too detailed prior to Fanfest, so there's not much he could say right this second. After Fanfest you can expect regular blogs.
:edit: Also, the question was something along the lines of What did I think of PI, which really doesn't necessarily belong in this thread. |
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:33:00 -
[1430]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 02/03/2011 15:35:58
Quote: I could but if you'll notice I'm trying to avoid being too detailed prior to Fanfest, so there's not much he could say right this second. After Fanfest you can expect regular blogs.
Why is this being withheld for Fanfest? This problem has been at crisis proportions for months now and the vast majority of us, as in, we, your customers, as in we who are paying you, aren't GOING to fanfest.
I agree with you doing a nice presentation about it there, but I don't think that is appropriate to wait for it or withhold it until then.
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Illwill Bill
Reign of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:51:00 -
[1431]
Thank you, Shreegs, for taking your time to reply to this thread.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:59:00 -
[1432]
Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 02/03/2011 15:35:58
Quote: I could but if you'll notice I'm trying to avoid being too detailed prior to Fanfest, so there's not much he could say right this second. After Fanfest you can expect regular blogs.
Why is this being withheld for Fanfest? This problem has been at crisis proportions for months now and the vast majority of us, as in, we, your customers, as in we who are paying you, aren't GOING to fanfest.
I agree with you doing a nice presentation about it there, but I don't think that is appropriate to wait for it or withhold it until then.
I wouldn't look at it so much as "withholding" information until fanfest so much as that this is the deadline we've set to have everything in an early presentable form. |
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.03.02 16:36:00 -
[1433]
Originally by: Batolemaeus
The root cause of all botting anywhere is where game design promotes mechanical repetition of steps. Whether it is aiming at heads or moving items from one place to another in regular intervals.
Unless you're going to make your game tasks a kind-of Turing test, every problem that is essentially process can be defined with a set of heuristics. It's just a question of how many rules you're going to have in your set. If someone who sells bots is making enough to buy himself a new house, I very much doubt he's going to be put-off increasing the sophistication of the heuristics in question. So I'm not sure how gameplay changes can ever prevent bots.
Disclaimer: I've got a degree in AI!
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Brannoncyll
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Posted - 2011.03.02 16:42:00 -
[1434]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Dealing with this problem correctly can't happen overnight (or even in a few weeks/months). Sure we could oversimplify the issue and come up with a magical list of accounts that we think could be bots, or have a squad of GMs staring at people all day based on a few reports, but at the end of the day would that really solve the issue? I think we need to be careful to make a distinction between effecting real change in the environment and creating a pile of sacrificial lambs. I have no interested in banning a pile of accounts to make a thread go away.
From this statement we can conclude that CCP are more interested than fixing the problem than doing another Unholy Rage. While I applaud the concept of getting it right, this is basically saying that players are free to continue to bot with impunity for months until these changes are put in place. Is this wise? Perhaps knowing that CCP are not interested in wielding the banhammer to punish cheaters will only encourage more?
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.02 16:53:00 -
[1435]
Originally by: Brannoncyll
From this statement we can conclude that CCP are more interested than fixing the problem than doing another Unholy Rage. While I applaud the concept of getting it right, this is basically saying that players are free to continue to bot with impunity for months until these changes are put in place. Is this wise? Perhaps knowing that CCP are not interested in wielding the banhammer to punish cheaters will only encourage more?
I would not make that assumption. For one, as has been pointed out in this thread, we've been at the problem for a few months now. For two, what I'm stating is that there are many facets to the issue that need to be addressed and that it will be a living/breathing process. That doesn't mean we'll sit around and twiddle our thumbs in the meantime. There will be no end and the beginning has already passed is the essence of what I'm getting at. |
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.03.02 17:04:00 -
[1436]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
There will be no end and the beginning has already passed is the essence of what I'm getting at.
I used to have Perception V. If I interpret that as meaning what I think it means, this is going to be funny...
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Everard Headbutt
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Posted - 2011.03.02 17:07:00 -
[1437]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
we've been at the problem for a few months now.
So for the previous 4 1/2 years or so that some of us have been petitioning CCP has done **** all except maybe hand out a one day ban?
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Nina Mercedez
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Posted - 2011.03.02 17:08:00 -
[1438]
Originally by: Burnharder
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
There will be no end and the beginning has already passed is the essence of what I'm getting at.
I used to have Perception V. If I interpret that as meaning what I think it means, this is going to be funny...
Please elaborate. I'm too lazy to read the CCP words, mainly because that's all they are; words.
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.03.02 17:25:00 -
[1439]
Originally by: Burnharder
Disclaimer: I've got a degree in AI!
The current limitations of AI should be known to you then. You're hitting a brick wall of complexity once you move away from the purely mechanical. Something that quite a few very smart people all over the world are trying to crack, and yet progress is slow.
The interesting part of, say, Civilization, is that most decisions you make are neither binary choices, nor is it immediately apparent which is better without an overarching strategy. This also means that the AI, as complex as it is, still can not compete with a human. Not even close.
There is no rule saying that all mmos have to be based around mechanical grind; repetition of the same mechanical steps ad infinitum. While you can not eliminate the people who want to automate their gameplay, you can set the barrier very high for them by reducing the mechanical and introducing the strategic gameplay. You could change botting from being superior to humans to being vastly outclassed by humans, which will have tangible effects on the impact those bots have.
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Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.03.02 17:36:00 -
[1440]
Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 17:37:25
Originally by: CCP Sreegs That doesn't make a single bot go away any more than replying to every post I ever make on the topic with "DUDE YOUR FACE LMAO" or "YOUR WRONG" does.
YES, please blame only me... Plus, yes.... I visit every thread you are in and post exactly that every time you say something. Overexaggerate more please
Originally by: Ephemeron You didn't read to the end. All that stuff just puts you on suspect list. In the end, it all leads to a GM sending you a convo and you either answering it or not. If you answer, nothing happens.
So by your rationale, If Im playing the game as I do, and alt tab to talk on the forums and miss the GM talking to me, then I MUST be botting and deserve to be banned? Nice logic ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
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