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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Pesadel0
the muppets RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.03 10:06:00 -
[1471]
Thanks for the reply Sreegs , You are my new hero:)
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Don Kartel
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Posted - 2011.03.03 10:10:00 -
[1472]
Edited by: Don Kartel on 03/03/2011 10:11:05 You Need to do something like this again
Look at alliances like white noise which have emassed large super cap fleets over a short period its pretty obvious botting is giving these alliance a massive advantage.
Also recently there has been inflation reported in the game. Can't think what is causing that
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Kogh Ayon
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Posted - 2011.03.03 11:50:00 -
[1473]
Banning botters is only a temporary solution and maybe not a profitable solution for CCP even.
There two unsolvable shorts for bots. Those are reading relyed instructions (makes things impossible;no AI are able to read correctly at the monent, the only thing they could do is linking an image of words to an action) and simple but varying possibilities (makes things too expansive, a swap between 3 objects will increase possibility by 6,4 by 12 and so on).
With the combination of these two, what? A bot-generated(random) reading content? Yes, If the coder could't get a stable copy/image of words there is no way to let the bot to "read".
When we use bots counter bots, the bot which issue questions gets best advantage: He doesn't have to understand anything.
For now it already dosen't worth to write a bot for kill missions, not only for the income but also due to the variability. Maybe someone could make one withch based on selected missions, then another variable added to missions would make it totally no value. Image your bot fly a raven to the warpgate, but this time it requires one metalscrap in your cargo to active the gate, maybe next time you need to shoot a building, with a randomly-generated name. Those sub-variables could be shared by missions but the code for them couldn't, just member bots can't actually read.
If there is a need of read in mining, like description, then there are no bot could understand. Although they are made up by the same words. For example we have A,B,C drills, I fly to a astorid it tells me "Use Drill A will be nice. Use Drill C will cause explosion, Use Drill B will be nice if you want to die". Then How can I write a bot to make it out? Maybe someone very brillant would write a code check if there is a keyword "want to die ". Ok there is still ways to break it(although expensive) because there is only one action "mining". To totally solve mining macros seems we need some changes in basis.
As the examples it seems not hard to kill macros from their possibility. That is someone said which I totally agree: "Poor game design is the root of macros". Since we haven't got any AI could understand what entertainment is.
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DonHel
Gallente Kentucky Fried Capsuleer
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Posted - 2011.03.03 12:40:00 -
[1474]
Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.03.03 12:48:00 -
[1475]
Originally by: Don Kartel Edited by: Don Kartel on 03/03/2011 10:11:05 You Need to do something like this again
Look at alliances like white noise which have emassed large super cap fleets over a short period its pretty obvious botting is giving these alliance a massive advantage.
Also recently there has been inflation reported in the game. Can't think what is causing that
hmm. given that I was driven out of ATLAS space, I would LOVE to agree with you here. but I dont think boting is their trick. I think it has more to do with IT and PL specifically giving them the reigns for that region. while some botting may be involved (pure speculation) i wouldn't imagine it to have contributed much to their success.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.03 13:01:00 -
[1476]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Would it be possible to use a blizzard style authenticator device to not only secure accounts but also to secure the client - prevent it from being hacked?
Firstly, I'm glad this is helpful to you guys even though I'm not able to provide a mountain of information at this time. So <3 for the thanks. As regards authenticators, I've mentioned it in a Dev Blog and Authentication is one of the things we've been looking at. Auth will be an additional topic of conversation during the fanfest presentation. |
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Florestan Bronstein
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Posted - 2011.03.03 13:03:00 -
[1477]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 03/03/2011 13:06:25
Originally by: Kogh Ayon With the combination of these two, what? A bot-generated(random) reading content? Yes, If the coder could't get a stable copy/image of words there is no way to let the bot to "read".
you realize that mission instructions, dialog boxes, ... etc. are just HTML formatted pieces of text that can easily be searched for keywords?
Here's a nice (real world) example of a bot "reading" the mission description to determine the enemy faction:
Quote: private DamageType GetMissionDamageType(string html) { // We are going to check damage types var logoRegex = new Regex("img src=\"factionlogo:(?<factionlogo>\\d+)");
var logoMatch = logoRegex.Match(html); if (logoMatch.Success) { var logo = logoMatch.Groups["factionlogo"].Value;
// Load faction xml var xml = XDocument.Load(Path.Combine(Path.GetDirectoryName(Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly().Location), "Factions.xml")); var faction = xml.Root.Elements("faction").Where(f => (string) f.Attribute("logo") == logo).FirstOrDefault(); if (faction != null) return (DamageType) Enum.Parse(typeof (DamageType), (string) faction.Attribute("damagetype")); }
return DamageType.EM; }
The bot just uses a search pattern (aka regular expression or short: regex) to look for the filename of the small image indicating the enemy faction. Then it decides which damage types to use for ammo based on that information.
(@mods please understand that this sample of code was taken from a public website and is completely useless in itself - my intention is to demonstrate a point and that's best done by referring to real-world samples instead of made-up pseudocode @world obviously I cannot give copyright attribution without violating the forum rules)
Even if your bot had no way to hook into the EVE client OCR on machine-written pieces of text is easy (even more so if you know the font that has been used and can train the OCR algorithms accordingly).
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.03 13:04:00 -
[1478]
Originally by: DonHel Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol
Part of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know. |
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DonHel
Gallente Kentucky Fried Capsuleer
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Posted - 2011.03.03 13:09:00 -
[1479]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: DonHel Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol
Part of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know.
awesome, good to know!
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.03.03 13:19:00 -
[1480]
So, players report bots, GM's investigate and flag bot players as criminals. Bots flash red for a month. No sec hits or concord for capping them. That would be pretty awesome :p. But that's just the high-sec solution. Wouldn't work in 0.0, unfortunately.
btw I'm speculating!
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Shandir
Minmatar EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.03.03 13:21:00 -
[1481]
Originally by: CCP SreegsPart of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know.[/quote
Is it legally impossible (I find this difficult to believe) to publish the character/account names of a player who breaks the EULA? To name and shame them without revealing RL personal information. Similarly, is there a legal reason why a player reporting an incident is never informed of the result of it - or is this simply policy? If so, why is this so?
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.03 13:53:00 -
[1482]
Originally by: Shandir
Originally by: CCP Sreegs Part of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know.
Is it legally impossible (I find this difficult to believe) to publish the character/account names of a player who breaks the EULA? To name and shame them without revealing RL personal information. Similarly, is there a legal reason why a player reporting an incident is never informed of the result of it - or is this simply policy? If so, why is this so?
I'm having a hard time quoting this soooo let's see how it works. We would never publish account names. Not publishing character names would be a policy decision which would involve a lot of discussion. What I can say is that we'll explore every option.
Players being informed of results is a policy decision. I'm not on the customer service side, but I can say this I think... We've always considered administrative action to be between us and the person being actioned. There could be any number of reasons for this that I could only guess at but the most obvious is that we need to be able to maintain with our players that the contents of their petitions will remain confidential between them and us. Maintaining that trust is pretty important to us so we'd have to be very careful about any instances where we may think about changing that. |
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Don Kartel
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Posted - 2011.03.03 14:14:00 -
[1483]
Edited by: Don Kartel on 03/03/2011 14:15:25 Here is a few idea's
restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported.
Ban the use of ISboxer - apparently this is allowed but more people use if for botting than what they make out they use it for.
Allow players to scan down/hack giant secure containers in space - Botters use these for re-supply of ammo and to dump loot. Dead give away when you go into a system and think there is a bot and you see containers called loot and ammo or salvage on directional scan.
Give a solution to perma cloakers either probing them our or decloaking.
Some of these ideas don't help the problem because people will just put up pos's but POS's cause logistics problems and fuel costs isk so reduces the income of them.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.03.03 14:19:00 -
[1484]
Originally by: Don Kartel
restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported.
I didn't think VMWare ran D3D 9, or at least support is patchy (up to shader model 2.0).
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.03 14:31:00 -
[1485]
Originally by: Burnharder
Originally by: Don Kartel
restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported.
I didn't think VMWare ran D3D 9, or at least support is patchy (up to shader model 2.0).
EVE can be run in VMware today. |
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Rorriana
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Posted - 2011.03.03 14:38:00 -
[1486]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Burnharder
Originally by: Don Kartel
restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported.
I didn't think VMWare ran D3D 9, or at least support is patchy (up to shader model 2.0).
EVE can be run in VMware today.
Is there any information from the technical/procedural side of botting that will be helpful to you in your endeavors CCP Sreegs? I assume you guys have a compiled list of current botting software, as well as sample of them, and samples of the source code of the bigger open source ones as well?
Just want to be sure there is nothing that we as players cna do to assist, because currently the only thing we can do is report players, which due to a complete lack of transparency appears to us to have no effect()despite assurances to the contrary).
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Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2011.03.03 15:09:00 -
[1487]
This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.03 15:16:00 -
[1488]
Originally by: Darth Vapour This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future.
Whoah let's not set the bar TOO high there brosef |
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.03 15:17:00 -
[1489]
Originally by: Rorriana
Is there any information from the technical/procedural side of botting that will be helpful to you in your endeavors CCP Sreegs? I assume you guys have a compiled list of current botting software, as well as sample of them, and samples of the source code of the bigger open source ones as well?
Just want to be sure there is nothing that we as players cna do to assist, because currently the only thing we can do is report players, which due to a complete lack of transparency appears to us to have no effect()despite assurances to the contrary).
If you want to contribute the best thing you can do is send any samples or information you might be concerned about to [email protected]. I've said in the past that we do reverse engineer these things but we can't always be aware of every single thing that's out there, so if there's particular information you think we should be privvy to that's always the best place for it to go.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.03.03 15:31:00 -
[1490]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 03/03/2011 15:32:20
Originally by: Shandir Is it legally impossible (I find this difficult to believe) to publish the character/account names of a player who breaks the EULA? To name and shame them without revealing RL personal information.
I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that 'our' characters only belong to us through the limited license of our subscription, subject to the terms of the EULA. If a player violates the EULA, CCP has the right to revoke the limited license (perma ban), and full ownership of the character reverts to CCP. So long as CCP does not reveal any information about the real world player associated with the account, I should think that they can do anything they like with the reputation and/or 'property' of any unlicensed character.
Originally by: CCP Sreegs Players being informed of results is a policy decision. I'm not on the customer service side, but I can say this I think... We've always considered administrative action to be between us and the person being actioned.
Given a reasonable amount of time for an account holder to petition, I'd love to see a wall of shame listing characters banned and why. Major busts might even be worth a news article. Given the negative press and buzz that Eve has been getting for loose enforcement of the rules, I should think that would be just the thing to get the word out that CCP is taking action.
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E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.03 16:01:00 -
[1491]
Thanks for the posts. Know it sucks to wade into this hornests nest where no post other than "I have solved botting and every bot has been banned"(and actually have it done) would make people happy.
That said
We really need to see some action rahter than words on this. We all see botters and the effects of botters and they are not diminishing in number.
Better punishments for the acount and all those that benifited are needed. (whats the down side to paying for an acount in plex and botting then giving the isk to my main)
Make this punishment known...If i was looking at botting the risk of losing my main would be a strong deterent.
Punish the alliances and corps who support botting.
Public shaming would be nice....list charcters and the corp/alliances that benifited. ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.03 16:14:00 -
[1492]
Edited by: Othran on 03/03/2011 16:19:16
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Darth Vapour This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future.
Whoah let's not set the bar TOO high there brosef
Lets not set it too low either otherwise a lot of us will be thinking "mmm more snow".
You may be the "new guy" but you're the company and the company has "history" on things like this....
I think you should expect to be providing a framework that we can ALL understand - players, GMs, devs, whoever. Anything less and I think you'll have an uncomfortable time - both online and at fanfest.
Edit - and by "framework" I mean some clear concise PUBLIC rules about what happen to people who deliberately set out to cheat. This isn't like some accidental exploit so I'd like to see a clear PUBLIC chart of what the process is - eg first time = 1 week ban; second = 3 months; third = permaban
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Jaik7
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Posted - 2011.03.03 16:32:00 -
[1493]
postin in epic long thread
makin noise bout bots.
dunno what to do bout them, but they are making my veldspar nearly worthless.
love the veldspar dude.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.03 16:38:00 -
[1494]
Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 03/03/2011 16:19:16
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Darth Vapour This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future.
Whoah let's not set the bar TOO high there brosef
Lets not set it too low either otherwise a lot of us will be thinking "mmm more snow".
You may be the "new guy" but you're the company and the company has "history" on things like this....
I think you should expect to be providing a framework that we can ALL understand - players, GMs, devs, whoever. Anything less and I think you'll have an uncomfortable time - both online and at fanfest.
Edit - and by "framework" I mean some clear concise PUBLIC rules about what happen to people who deliberately set out to cheat. This isn't like some accidental exploit so I'd like to see a clear PUBLIC chart of what the process is - eg first time = 1 week ban; second = 3 months; third = permaban
Those public rules would be a small part of any Framework. As I said, this isn't a feature. It doesn't fit within the rubrick of anything you've had to experience like a feature. I'm not promising you a new spaceship or mechanic, so let's not get confused about promises and deliverables. I'm talking about security process and some things we'll be doing from a technical and business perspective to deliver on that process. It's there. It's happening and it's moving. I think there's a very big difference.
I'm not here to wow you with explosions and features and pretty shiny things. I'm here to talk to you about how we think about security and some specific items we've implemented and will be implementing going forward.
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Lady Cazana
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Posted - 2011.03.03 16:42:00 -
[1495]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 03/03/2011 16:19:16
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Darth Vapour This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future.
Whoah let's not set the bar TOO high there brosef
Lets not set it too low either otherwise a lot of us will be thinking "mmm more snow".
You may be the "new guy" but you're the company and the company has "history" on things like this....
I think you should expect to be providing a framework that we can ALL understand - players, GMs, devs, whoever. Anything less and I think you'll have an uncomfortable time - both online and at fanfest.
Edit - and by "framework" I mean some clear concise PUBLIC rules about what happen to people who deliberately set out to cheat. This isn't like some accidental exploit so I'd like to see a clear PUBLIC chart of what the process is - eg first time = 1 week ban; second = 3 months; third = permaban
Those public rules would be a small part of any Framework. As I said, this isn't a feature. It doesn't fit within the rubrick of anything you've had to experience like a feature. I'm not promising you a new spaceship or mechanic, so let's not get confused about promises and deliverables. I'm talking about security process and some things we'll be doing from a technical and business perspective to deliver on that process. It's there. It's happening and it's moving. I think there's a very big difference.
I'm not here to wow you with explosions and features and pretty shiny things. I'm here to talk to you about how we think about security and some specific items we've implemented and will be implementing going forward.
PWND by the new guy
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.03.03 16:59:00 -
[1496]
Edited by: Vincent Athena on 03/03/2011 17:01:05 CCP Sreegs, you said that you are relatively new, and others on your team are even newer. This made me curious...
Does your team have a cool name, like team gridlock? When did CCP decide a bigger, better team was needed for security issues? How did they come to that conclusion? How did CCP handle the bot issue before your team was formed? How many are on the team? Is it still growing? What other security issues does the team deal with? I know of phishing, botting, RMT, hacking... others?
Edit: Can you fix the typo on the title of this thread?
Thanks again for your posts. This tread has gone from a grim depressing flame fest to fun and hopeful.
P.S. Others may want to re-read Sreegs blog on phishing. I get the idea that the framework to be used to fight bots will be like the one presented for combating phishing, and the frameworks for the various security issues will be all interconnected.
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Rorriana
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Posted - 2011.03.03 17:28:00 -
[1497]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Rorriana
Is there any information from the technical/procedural side of botting that will be helpful to you in your endeavors CCP Sreegs? I assume you guys have a compiled list of current botting software, as well as sample of them, and samples of the source code of the bigger open source ones as well?
Just want to be sure there is nothing that we as players cna do to assist, because currently the only thing we can do is report players, which due to a complete lack of transparency appears to us to have no effect()despite assurances to the contrary).
If you want to contribute the best thing you can do is send any samples or information you might be concerned about to [email protected]. I've said in the past that we do reverse engineer these things but we can't always be aware of every single thing that's out there, so if there's particular information you think we should be privvy to that's always the best place for it to go.
Silly question CCP Sreegs, if you don't mind.
Do you guys have anyone on your team who is experienced running bot/macros in MMOs or dealing in RMT?
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.03 17:52:00 -
[1498]
Originally by: Rorriana
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Rorriana
Is there any information from the technical/procedural side of botting that will be helpful to you in your endeavors CCP Sreegs? I assume you guys have a compiled list of current botting software, as well as sample of them, and samples of the source code of the bigger open source ones as well?
Just want to be sure there is nothing that we as players cna do to assist, because currently the only thing we can do is report players, which due to a complete lack of transparency appears to us to have no effect()despite assurances to the contrary).
If you want to contribute the best thing you can do is send any samples or information you might be concerned about to [email protected]. I've said in the past that we do reverse engineer these things but we can't always be aware of every single thing that's out there, so if there's particular information you think we should be privvy to that's always the best place for it to go.
Silly question CCP Sreegs, if you don't mind.
Do you guys have anyone on your team who is experienced running bot/macros in MMOs or dealing in RMT?
I'll answer the one above this in a bit, but yes to the bot/macro question and no to the dealing in RMT if you're referring to running an RMT ring.
We'll spend some time introducing and going over the various backgrounds of some of the team at FF. |
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.03 18:35:00 -
[1499]
Edited by: Othran on 03/03/2011 18:36:11
Originally by: Lady Cazana PWND by the new guy
Oh I do hope thats true.
We've heard plenty of fine words from CCP before - LONG before the new guy was here - so lets see what happens. If there isn't a significant reduction in bots then we know its just more fine words and no actions....
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Trinneth
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
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Posted - 2011.03.03 19:21:00 -
[1500]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs We'll spend some time introducing and going over the various backgrounds of some of the team at FF.
Thanks for posting in this thread Screegs - you may not be able to give us much in the way of specifics until Fanfest, but just knowing you'll be talking about how you intend to deal with the issue at Fanfest is a lot more encouraging than the previous radio-silence was.
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