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Miko Nguyen
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Posted - 2010.12.06 03:50:00 -
[1]
So, I will be moving my corp into a WH in another month. It's either a C2 or a C3. My challenge is determining the best compensation system for everyone as well as what to tax them. Monies are to go POS and other needed essentials for WH living as well as future plans.
In a C2, I won't bring more than 10 people. In a C3, I won't bring more than 15.
I thought of a 10% tax rate on them but the problem is that I don't know how to keep track of all salvage and ore being brought in. Everyone will have different playing times and some will contribute more than others. Given this reality, it would be hard to do a percentage basis. So how bout a flat fee that is charged to them monthly. The challenge with this is that I don't know how much profit can be pulled in on a monthly basis.
My guesstimate is to charge 50M Isk per player per month in a C2. Or perhaps 100M isk per player in a C3?
And putting the tax rate aside, is it best to just let each player make their own profit rather than having them give me all the ore and salvage? At the minimum, that minimizes the administrative headaches for me and holds them accountable for their own profits.
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Worgen Fratmon
Minmatar Instapop Industries death from above..
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Posted - 2010.12.06 04:32:00 -
[2]
This is how my corp does this.
The corp purchases all WH related items from the person (or group) at the highest Jita buy price, minus the tax. This includes PI as well as salvage.
Then the corp take all items to market, not the individuals in the WH.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.06 06:28:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/12/2010 06:35:42
We do it pretty simply: add-up all the tags, ribbons, and relics (based on Jita sell prices), then split it evenly.
Our primary T3 builder usually takes all the ribbons, and often all the intact artifacts, in lieu of his portion of the split. If he can't use all the artifacts, we split those too. He offers to reverse engineers artifacts for anyone too (he has perfect RE skills).
Typically one person will take the the majority of the remaining tags and artifacts, then send everyone their split as ISK.
Other salvage we don't bother to split, and just give it all to the T3 builder or anyone that needs it. It isn't worth enough to hassle over.
We do C4/C5/C6 with 4 people, but using multiple accounts. The split is still 4-way. Typically we have 6 ships in a site, 3 ships salvaging, and 1 unprobeable ship off somewhere as the fleet booster and prober.
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Tea Partier
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Posted - 2010.12.06 06:37:00 -
[4]
Kick all greedy members and have everyone able to do at least some PI to help with the POS.
Then find an equitable way to split the loot that is simple and transparent. The first response sounds good and Tau also has a good set up. Generally in a WH ISK is the least of your issues after you have set up.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2010.12.06 10:26:00 -
[5]
Have all loot/salvage/ore given to the corp. Keep all the ISK for yourself. If anybody complains or hoards, kick them from the corp and have the other corp members pod them. Dole out small amounts of ISK to keep favored cronies on your side. Rule by fear and tyranny. Corp members are merely resources to be exploited and then tossed aside.
Taxman IX: Risky Venture
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Tattoo Stan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 13:02:00 -
[6]
GL keeping 10 people happy in a c2
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:43:00 -
[7]
If the players run PI in the wormhole they're can easily cover 50-100 million in monthly dues without getting click-finger cramps.
Find a wormhole with: - Good PI production (all pos fuels is preferred) = money making when sites dry up. - A high-sec static exit = Easy access to markets for sales and supply runs - Static to another wormhole = Better availability of sites
I would recommend setting a monthly cost. It will make your life a lot easier and you won't have to worry about people being honest about their amount of salvage.
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rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
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Posted - 2010.12.06 15:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Worgen Fratmon This is how my corp does this.
The corp purchases all WH related items from the person (or group) at the highest Jita buy price, minus the tax. This includes PI as well as salvage.
Then the corp take all items to market, not the individuals in the WH.
If I were to join a WH corp, I would expect this. Any other system and I would likely be looking for another corp. The highest Jita buy is a good price. If you consider the outside work necessary to keep track of loot/distribute wealth I'd say whomever is doing the buying is the one getting the shaft in terms of isk/work. Usually though that's pretty much the type of stuff they enjoy doing.
Players go and do fun stuff and get instant ISK (Barrels of ISK rolling in) as a result - Everyones happy. One person managing the system and getting 2-5%? They're happy too.
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Kalseti
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:30:00 -
[9]
Charge a flat rate. My corp runs out of a C5. There are like 8-10 active people. Some like to rat in ls ns , some run annoms , some manifature ect. We figure the fuel cost for the towers we have up split by howevermany people and there you go. Much easier the spliting buying ect. Let people make the insane amount of isk you can in WH space and leave out as much administration as you can.
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Scout1111
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Greg Huff If the players run PI in the wormhole they're can easily cover 50-100 million in monthly dues without getting click-finger cramps.
Find a wormhole with: - Good PI production (all pos fuels is preferred) = money making when sites dry up. - A high-sec static exit = Easy access to markets for sales and supply runs - Static to another wormhole = Better availability of sites
I would recommend setting a monthly cost. It will make your life a lot easier and you won't have to worry about people being honest about their amount of salvage.
Pretty much what's bolded here. First one is iffy since truesec for WHs is -0.99 anyway, but good planet types will help if you don't want to buy the fuel. High-sec exit can be swapped for a low-sec exit if you have blockade runners and/or trust your ability to run gatecamps with valuables in your cargohold. Static to another wormhole is practically required as you will eventually deplete your own system, and then your members will start getting stir crazy if they have nothing to do.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.06 20:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Greg Huff
- A high-sec static exit = Easy access to markets for sales and supply runs
My understanding is that this can actually be undesirable. Static high-sec = much more traffic through your little slice of heaven; a static low-sec = much less traffic, but you can close it yourself until you get a 'hole that is close to high-sec AND in a low-traffic area, so you can bring stuff through pretty safely. *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Miko Nguyen
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Posted - 2010.12.06 21:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tattoo Stan GL keeping 10 people happy in a c2
too much eh? Is 10-15 in a C3 too much as well?
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Windorian
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Posted - 2010.12.07 06:56:00 -
[13]
Here's the general rundown of a system i've used to great success.
Everytime people run fleet ops in our WH or static, one person is in charge of writing an fleet op "report". This includes the names of each person involved in combat (we dont pay salvagers or probers, as we generally share those tasks).
For each site run, each person present if given points. In our C3, these are 1 point eacha nomaly, 1.5 for each radar/mag. All sleeper tags and salvage/relics etc are deposited in a central hangar which only directors can withdraw from. We update the list every op, until we have a viable exit to sell the goods off and divide the loot (minus a 10% tax).
To give you an example, Day 1, Op 1, Bob, Jane, And frank each run 3 anoms in fleet. (each earning 1 point per anom.) Frank has to leave, but Bob and Jane continue and do 2 more anoms. Total with all the tags and ribbons, the pot holds about 200 mil (not accurate of course). So we remove the tax (20 mil) to pay for fuels and such for the pos, leaving 180 mil in the pot. Now the points would be.
Frank 3 Bob 5 Jane 5
The payroll should read soemthign like
180 mil Est holding after Tax, 13 Points Total, 13,8450,000 est Point Value (we round down point value).
To make things easy, i use a Corp bulletin to list the payroll info so all members can see where they stand. Use a seperate wallet division to sell off all sleeper goods and ribbons, then pay out the members on the list according to their points. Clear payroll, rinse, repeat.
This system works well if you can't sell off the goods often enough as you still get a good division based on participation.
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heheheh
Phoenix Club
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Miko Nguyen
Originally by: Tattoo Stan GL keeping 10 people happy in a c2
too much eh? Is 10-15 in a C3 too much as well?
Large numbers will help if they are not all active all of the time, but i aggree with stan, i think 10 people in a c2, when sometimes there may only be 1-2 spawns a day may be a little too many. I was 5 people in a C2 and we didnt make a great deal of ISK, it would definatly be worth you looking for a WH with a static C3-4 if you have big numbers, so you can try to farm you adjacent WH as much as poss.
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Gerwiga
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:28:00 -
[15]
The only way to keep your members happy is to move into a c6 with a static c6.
See you around
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Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.12.07 22:04:00 -
[16]
I like Windorian's method. Well thought out and allows a little tweaking if need be. I'm a little surprised you don't give your salvagers and scanners a piece of the pie, but that's up to you. Have you ever left eyes on a wormhole you're running sites in? An alt is not a great choice for this job since you want constant attention on wh activation, esp if the sites you're running are out of dscan range of the wh. Would you include someone doing that job on your payroll? |
Miko Nguyen
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Posted - 2010.12.07 23:26:00 -
[17]
I haven't the faintest clue as to what Windorian's method is about. Sounds like it works for him but I'd prefer my guys to just split them however they wish w/o having to do all this tallying. I'm more interested in seeing what rate I should tax them to use the funds to bankroll future WH expansion than anything else.
I'd probably buy the salvage and ore at jita minus 10% for those that don't want to be bothered with selling it on the market
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.08 01:01:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 08/12/2010 01:04:20
Originally by: Miko Nguyen I'm more interested in seeing what rate I should tax them to use the funds to bankroll future WH expansion than anything else.
My corp has 0% tax because I hate taxes!
We fund things fairly equitably with the complex system of: we need X, and somebody provides X.
* "Wow! We are going through a lot of ammo! I'll bring in a million next chance I get." * "We are getting low on isotopes. I'll pick-up 3 months worth on my next trip to Jita." * "We need some more Tengu to try that. I'll make one for the corp for every 4 I sell, until we have enough." * "Drat! I forgot to buy a cloak for my new Noctis." "There are a couple in my hangar. Take one!" * "How much do I owe you?" "Meh! Don't bother." * "The master wallet was getting low, so I put 100 million in." * "I'm in Jita. Does anybody need anything brought back?"
I occasionally get teased about the HUGE communal pile of Tritanium that I've created. It is obscenely large, but it comes in handy whenever somebody needs to build something (like ammo). It is almost entirely from reprocessing scraps that nobody wants to bother with except me.
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heheheh
Phoenix Club
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Posted - 2010.12.08 13:50:00 -
[19]
I find people are happiest with 0 tax rate and a communal system as mentioned above. However, unless you trust everyone 100% this ends up in theft and a load of people upset because its always the same few helping out. I have my corp set to 0 tax and the only thing i ask of them is that they pay for the fuel of the pos that they live in. I find when you take next to nothing off them like this, when it comes to expansion they are more than happy to contribute to the cost.
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Windorian
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Posted - 2010.12.08 14:32:00 -
[20]
Believe me, the system i use wasn't always as it is, it's been tweaked and refined at every turn. A few updates to the system i couldn't post before as wel as explanations:
On Salvager/Probers: When we first began in our WH, we had a Huge influx of members. Something like 20 people in a C4. Problem was, we didn't monitor skills closely enough, and often times our fleets would be gimped. Higher members had to equip more RR to keep lessers alive, and the DPS those members brought did not make up the difference. We also payed probers for a complete WH report (listing our ID's in system with what type they are, as well as scanning out our static. We also payed slavagers a straight 1 point per site salvaged, regardless of if it was C3 or C4, mag or anom, etc.
The problem was, each member was getting relatively equal shares for ops, but they were not making equal contributions. Salvaging generates 1/2 the profit in a WH, as such, it's a given that you be able to do it. Now, if you can't probe/salvage, we dont allow you in the WH. Probing, while a neccassary part of WH life, generates 0 profit. All those extra points to members who were spending half their time idle were watering down the payroll, reducing point values for everyone else.
TAX: Of course, members would LOVE a 0% tax. However, we run 2 pos in our WH. Even faction towers use considerable fuel. The only thing we apply our 10% tax to is FLEET ops, Solo runs are not taxed. This generates enough isk to keep us well fueled, and a lil left at the end of each month for possible expansion or corp assets.
ON RIBBONS: One of the benefits of WH life is easy access to the goods needed to produce T3 ships. We build them from base materials all the way to jita ready in a single pos. As such, whenever we factor ribbons into our payroll, the corp buys them all at a 10% discount of jita market average. This is applied before we total up the payroll and divide it by opoints (to prevent a double tax). A benefit of this, is that anytime a member wants to buy a T3 ship or subsystems, we sell them to members at the same 10% discount off market average. This more than makes up for the lessened nano-ribbon cost.
ALTS: We tried MANY schemes for paying alts, eventually it was settled. A fully functioning alt (combat usually) would recieve 1/2 the points of it's main character. Any alt after the 1st recieved 0 pay. This is because the system works on division, the more members you have geting points,t he less those points are worth. By reducing points to 1/2 for alts, the main would still be recieving more isk per point as the average was less-dilluted by more points.
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Asarus Atreyu
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
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Posted - 2010.12.08 15:12:00 -
[21]
We run a 10% tax in kairs, this helps cover the cost of two large towers, as well as giving us some spare isk to invest into corp projects (such as T3 production).
As long as the isk isn't ending up in someone elses pocket, the members don't seem to mind. ----------------------
Interested in a change? Come see what wormhole life offers in LOST-Pub! |
Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.08 16:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Asarus Atreyu We run a 10% tax in kairs...
I might be wrong, but I get the impression you're referring to your standard corporate tax, the one that is automatically collected from bounty and mission payouts. That tax rate doesn't help with WH life since none of the sleeper drones have a bounty.
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Miko Nguyen
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Posted - 2010.12.08 21:59:00 -
[23]
I've already determined the qualifications needed from my corpies so I'm not worried about having weak links. Having listened to various pros/cons here, I'm more convinced that assessing a flat fee on them at the end of the month is the best for my own agenda. That way, they can decide at the end of the month if paying xxx amount is worth it. Most likely it is if you're in a WH. If not, then its because they haven't logged on enough and they know they need to move out.
I run an indy corp so people know it's all about profit. So philosophically speaking, this whole thing about keeping tax low and asking donations makes no sense to me. It's just business. I don't do handouts and all the money goes back to corp anyway to bankroll future ops.
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Asarus Atreyu
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Greg Huff
Originally by: Asarus Atreyu We run a 10% tax in kairs...
I might be wrong, but I get the impression you're referring to your standard corporate tax, the one that is automatically collected from bounty and mission payouts. That tax rate doesn't help with WH life since none of the sleeper drones have a bounty.
Sorry, I meant that we take 10% of the sleeper loot from all sleeper running operations. That 10% tax also applies to ore, gas and PI. ----------------------
Interested in a change? Come see what wormhole life offers in LOST-Pub! |
Boltorano
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
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Posted - 2010.12.09 03:33:00 -
[25]
This is the way we've done it in my corp for the past year or so and it works well enough:
1. Pretty much everyone scans. The people who don't scan don't really do much of anything anyway, so it's their loss. 2. If you clear something solo, you keep everything. 3. If you clear something as a group, divide it up in equal shares by players, not characters. Exceptions can be made if one person is running 3/4 of the characters in an op or something like that. Salvaging for the group doesn't get you anything extra. 4. Items from hacking cans go to corp, for use in reverse engineering. 5. C320 and C540 goes to corp. 6. Every so often, profits from T3 production and polymer reactions are divided among the active members who are contributing to 4 and 5.
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Truculent Misanthrope
Amarr Generic Internet Spaceships Trading Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.09 19:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 08/12/2010 01:04:20
Originally by: Miko Nguyen I'm more interested in seeing what rate I should tax them to use the funds to bankroll future WH expansion than anything else.
My corp has 0% tax because I hate taxes!
We fund things fairly equitably with the complex system of: we need X, and somebody provides X.
* "Wow! We are going through a lot of ammo! I'll bring in a million next chance I get." * "We are getting low on isotopes. I'll pick-up 3 months worth on my next trip to Jita." * "We need some more Tengu to try that. I'll make one for the corp for every 4 I sell, until we have enough." * "Drat! I forgot to buy a cloak for my new Noctis." "There are a couple in my hangar. Take one!" * "How much do I owe you?" "Meh! Don't bother." * "The master wallet was getting low, so I put 100 million in." * "I'm in Jita. Does anybody need anything brought back?"
I occasionally get teased about the HUGE communal pile of Tritanium that I've created. It is obscenely large, but it comes in handy whenever somebody needs to build something (like ammo). It is almost entirely from reprocessing scraps that nobody wants to bother with except me.
This. The rest of these systems smell of carebears from WoW.
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Kalseti
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:09:00 -
[27]
While I like Tau's system and up until a few months ago thats how we did it as well. But this particular group of people have played MMOs together for 10 or so years now and trust each other to pick up the slack and not end up haveing one person take on more then they should to keep the lights on. We added a few people to our group not long ago and had to do a flat fee in order to keep the older toons from paying for everything... and even that is not working very well since I just brought in 4 months of fuel out of my wallet :P (stupid gate campers eating my last trip too)
Anyway, find a system that works for your group and go with it.
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Tattoo Stan
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:59:00 -
[28]
DKP ?
*Hides*
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.10 01:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kalseti Anyway, find a system that works for your group and go with it.
I make no claims about our system of payment being better or worse for others, only that it works well enough for us.
I presented it here primarily to show that w-space corps should expect their members to be more than employees. Get them all to want to pitch-in, in order to make their own w-space life much more enjoyable.
The isolated nature of w-space requires more co-operation from members.
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Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.10 10:17:00 -
[30]
Quote: DKP ?
I knew I wasn't the only one thinking it.
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