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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 11:33:00 -
[1]
Nosferatu have been balanced but neuts were never fixed.
Time to fix neuts.
I propose the following change to neutralisers to balance them.
Where X is the ships peak capacitor regeneration rate. ( 40% ? )
If target ship has greater than X cap neutraliser neuts for the full amount. If target ship has less than X cap then neutraliser only neuts a proportion of the cap.
Neut amount = Full neut amount * target remaining capacitor / target peak capacitor.
Pros. Stops the medium/heavy neut being the kill frigate button.
Active tank settups may actually be useful on more ships. exp those that cant fit Cap boosters.
Cons. Curse/Pilgrim Pilots will be unhappy.
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Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2010.12.06 11:52:00 -
[2]
not supported. no special reason, i just like my Neut-Domi and the way how neutralizing works. you can tank passiv and i dont like how fast frigates work, but neutralizing will stop them. It will not kill them directly. So imho neutralizers work fine. Nosferatus are pretty much useless after the nerf and i really dont want to see same with neutralizers. Instead nerf the Dramiel ! <- (joke)
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle not supported. no special reason, i just like my Neut-Domi and the way how neutralizing works. you can tank passiv and i dont like how fast frigates work, but neutralizing will stop them. It will not kill them directly. So imho neutralizers work fine. Nosferatus are pretty much useless after the nerf and i really dont want to see same with neutralizers. Instead nerf the Dramiel ! <- (joke)
Fix the dram too. ( as well as not instead of ).
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Anna Lifera
6....
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:20:00 -
[4]
not supported. a bigger ship is supposed to have an advantage over the smaller ship, whether it's in hp, powergrid/cpu, firepower, or capacitor, and as such, capacitor warfare, gun size, and fitting options. otherwise, why bother going above a frigate and risk more isk and being slower for nothing, especially since bigger guns have worse tracking? if u don't want to fit a cap booster to counter neutralizers, then that's your fault, even if u chose to fly a ship that "can't" fit them. --- You're an asset to the community Anna. Thank you for your clear concise remarks. - Draek |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:37:00 -
[5]
Being a small ship aficionado myself, I can certainly sympathize with the idea but cannot support it. What option does larger ships have against smaller if you take away their ability to cap them out?
Missiles/Guns are speed/tracking tanked. Drones are shot down. Webs are ineffective close in, unless in numbers.
Alternate solution would be to make neuts only kill cap down to peak recharge (30-35%) and then quadruple or more the consumption of any active module on the target ship Gives a little extra time before tackle/tank is shut off but doesn't prevent it all together.
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:38:00 -
[6]
thought exercise;
how about some hulls having a 50% resistance to cap warfare? Say for instance a common active tanking short range ship like the Hyperion?
That might give them more of a niche role in PvP as they'd be able to keep fighting longer whilst being neuted. I'm aware that won't balance ships across the racial board but like I said, it's just a thought I'm throwing out there.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:56:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dav Varan on 06/12/2010 14:57:35
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Being a small ship aficionado myself, I can certainly sympathize with the idea but cannot support it. What option does larger ships have against smaller if you take away their ability to cap them out?
Missiles/Guns are speed/tracking tanked. Drones are shot down. Webs are ineffective close in, unless in numbers.
Alternate solution would be to make neuts only kill cap down to peak recharge (30-35%) and then quadruple or more the consumption of any active module on the target ship Gives a little extra time before tackle/tank is shut off but doesn't prevent it all together.
I dont want neuts totally nerfed. I just think there effect is a bit too stong at the moment.
Ccp went through a lot of work to prevent BS guns / missiles from insta popping frigs. Nos have had there effectiveness reduced too. Originally back in the day a volley of cruise from a raven would insta pop any frig.
Now we have a much better situation where frigs can survive on the battle field much better v big stuff. The one module remaining that needs balancing is the neut.
Attack a bs and a cruiser that has a neut and the following can happen. They press a button. You have no cap and are basically dead in the water.
Ok v cruiser you can stay outside 12km. Theres no way to tackle a bs with a large neut though.
Neuts are a 1 slot fix against frigs on a bs. 1 slot !!!
I think a situation where 2 or 3 cycles or modules to put someones cap under serious pressure ( 10% ) would be a better all round solution.
Make it hard to put someone down to 0 cap. But still easy to make them suffer with cap regen.
For balance it maybe neccessary to not take cap from the neuting ship when cap is not destroyed.
Also Buffer tanks are FOTM. Neuts have a hand in this.
I'd like to see more setup types being viable.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari Technomage Trilogy Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:08:00 -
[8]
They already have a logical fix for it on Nos's - can't drain below your cap percentage. Makes it more of an energy 'equalizer', but keeps it fair across all ship sizes and tends to promote active tank/neut fits the same way nos already plays into active fits. -More Pewpew, Less QQ- |
Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:28:00 -
[9]
Fixing something implies it is broken.
Nuets are not broken.
Therefore they do not need fixing.
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steave435
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:31:00 -
[10]
Fit a cap booster or nos. You will get enough cap between the neut cycles with a small nos to keep your prop mod active.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:38:00 -
[11]
Neuts are really the primary defense a larger ship has against a smaller ship. Don't touch the neuts.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari Technomage Trilogy Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro Fixing something implies it is broken.
Nuets are not broken.
Therefore they do not need fixing.
Stating something as a fact does not make it a fact.
A valid counterargument to yours would be "Neuts are broken." Just as poor an argument, but you get the idea.
Neuts have exponentially greater effects when used against smaller ship classes. This is pretty much counter to every design philosophy in the game. -More Pewpew, Less QQ- |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bagehi Neuts are really the primary defense a larger ship has against a smaller ship. Don't touch the neuts.
Exactly my point !
Theres one module that is the Primary defense v small stuff. Its a must fit ( overpowered ) module.
Just one activation of one module makes all your small ship problems go away!
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Bagehi Neuts are really the primary defense a larger ship has against a smaller ship. Don't touch the neuts.
Exactly my point !
Theres one module that is the Primary defense v small stuff. Its a must fit ( overpowered ) module.
Just one activation of one module makes all your small ship problems go away!
And then how does a larger ship protect itself against smaller ships? Or are smaller ships supposed to be completely invincible against larger ships?
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Bagehi Neuts are really the primary defense a larger ship has against a smaller ship. Don't touch the neuts.
Exactly my point !
Theres one module that is the Primary defense v small stuff. Its a must fit ( overpowered ) module.
Just one activation of one module makes all your small ship problems go away!
And then how does a larger ship protect itself against smaller ships? Or are smaller ships supposed to be completely invincible against larger ships?
Neut still too work after balance. Just not kill all cap to 0 in one hit.
light drones if solo. Gang mates with anti frig weapons.
Something more than just press button / kill frig.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro Fixing something implies it is broken.
Nuets are not broken.
Therefore they do not need fixing.
Stating something as a fact does not make it a fact.
A valid counterargument to yours would be "Neuts are broken." Just as poor an argument, but you get the idea.
Neuts have exponentially greater effects when used against smaller ship classes. This is pretty much counter to every design philosophy in the game.
1)I totally agree. But seeing as how the OP did not bother with such trifles as arguments, i did not feel the need to either.
2)It is not in any way counter to the philosophy of the game when considered inside the framework of balance. A large nuet, for example, is the only real consistant defense some BS have against some of the beefier small(er) ships. Removing said defense shifts the favor entirely into the other persons favor. 100% winsauce in either person's favor is not balance. Before you counter with: but the small ship will always lose... this is not in any way factually correct unqualifiably.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dav Varan Neut still too work after balance. Just not kill all cap to 0 in one hit.
light drones if solo. Gang mates with anti frig weapons.
Something more than just press button / kill frig.
Cruiser and BS sized webs that slow down targets more than standard webs ?? Tweaking of sig radiuses ??
No, they really don't. Most large ships aren't trying to kill a small ship with a neut (frigate sized ship can still easily warp out before they've slowed to the point where something can kill them). Usually just trying to escape (get jammed, neut, warp) before their friends warp in. Light drones can be kited by some frigate hulls. Some frigate-size ships can simply tank them eternally.
Neuts are the best compromise. Big ship can escape, small ship can escape, neither has an advantage.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro Fixing something implies it is broken.
Nuets are not broken.
Therefore they do not need fixing.
Stating something as a fact does not make it a fact.
A valid counterargument to yours would be "Neuts are broken." Just as poor an argument, but you get the idea.
Neuts have exponentially greater effects when used against smaller ship classes. This is pretty much counter to every design philosophy in the game.
1)I totally agree. But seeing as how the OP did not bother with such trifles as arguments, i did not feel the need to either.
2)It is not in any way counter to the philosophy of the game when considered inside the framework of balance. A large nuet, for example, is the only real consistant defense some BS have against some of the beefier small(er) ships. Removing said defense shifts the favor entirely into the other persons favor. 100% winsauce in either person's favor is not balance. Before you counter with: but the small ship will always lose... this is not in any way factually correct unqualifiably.
"Neuts have exponentially greater effects when used against smaller ship classes. This is pretty much counter to every design philosophy in the game"
He said it better than me for sure.
2. I think the idea ccp had when they started designing sig radius and tracking and velocity explosions was too make all ships viable on the battle field.
This they have pretty much achived with the exception of the neut.
If Capital Neuts were available most BS pilots would say thats just stuppid. WTF Carrier just neuted all my cap at the press of a button !!!.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dav Varan Neut still too work after balance. Just not kill all cap to 0 in one hit.
That also creates very huge problems catching nanoed stuff.
Originally by: Dav Varan
light drones if solo.
There are quite some frigs that can deal with a wave of light drones, it isn't even a issue against multiple frigs. Also it makes Frigs a very hard tackle, that you most likely unable to shake off at all for anything bigger than a frig. In the end this would represent a very huge nerf to any ship bigger than frigs and would make BS basically as handy caped as dreads.
Originally by: Dav Varan
Cruiser and BS sized webs that slow down targets more than standard webs ?? Tweaking of sig radiuses ??
Sure, but I'm very sure that most frig pilots wouldn't like it(I would welcome it however). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.12.06 18:00:00 -
[20]
not supported.
nos and cap injectors are the counter to neuts. with proper timing you can easily negate the whole neut effect.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:48:00 -
[21]
You lose points for not asking for what you really want, the complete removal of energy neuts from the game. Not supported.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Zaboth Garadath
Amarr Ore Extraction Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:58:00 -
[22]
IF your thinking about nerfing Neuts, please think about ECM.
ECM is like Neuts except it has a far greater range, and is still strong against larger ships.
Neuts also don't do anything vs passive tank, projectile & missiles.
Nerf ECM! _____________________________________________
'If you really want to make someone hate you, explain to them, logically and politely, why they are wrong' - J. Baylock |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.06 23:21:00 -
[23]
If you want to limit power of neuts, how about unnerfing NOS - the natural counter. The NOS nerf was absolutely horrid - fine example of CCP's incompetence.
also, small nos easily counters several large neuts on a frig.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:02:00 -
[24]
I support nerfing Neuts:
When the target has less cap then the neut amount, the neut should only remove that much cap.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Word of Chaos |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:39:00 -
[25]
Your right... we do need t2 bs that is a big curse. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:49:00 -
[26]
So basically What your saying is you want to Nerf the 1 thing that can save a BS from a frigate. seriously thats stupid.
Without Neuts Local Rep cruisers and BC's and such would be neigh invincible N2M the Dramiel which would be the most powerful ship in the game.
Don't get me Wrong i love it too cause my Sabre would be Invincible with the only counter being neuts. i could run circles around BS and bubble the Sh*t outa them
Neuts work as they are supposed to, cause hey if we wanna be realistic a frigate webbing a nano BS should get towed along behind like a sleigh behind a snowmobile.
i'd be ok with them fixing nos's in a way that they were more effective as right now there sh*t. But Nerfing Neuts is f*cking Stupid
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2010.12.07 09:40:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dav Varan Whaaaaa!!! My frig got neuted!
Come on. You remember how neuts were worse than useless. NOBODY used them. And since that time they haven't been changed at all. Except maybe your perception of them. ('Course that's all based on the assumption you didn't just buy your character.)
Stop complaining and pack a small Nos if you wanna tackle BCs and BSs. Neuts are fine, they are one of the few defenses a BS has against a small tackler. And note I say that as a person that rarely uses med/lg neuts myself.
Taxman IX: Risky Venture
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Nischara
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Posted - 2010.12.07 10:19:00 -
[28]
i vote no to losing my mega to a solo rifter every time
frigates are immune to damage from big ships enough, and ships biger than frigates often have cap boosters so this proposal is not about them
also, statisticaly this is the worst proposal EVER all those reads and replys and not a single support yet
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.12.07 11:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: darius mclever not supported.
nos and cap injectors are the counter to neuts. with proper timing you can easily negate the whole neut effect.
Please show me the small neut that can fill my cap in 1 cycle ? You cant so you are wrong again and talking crap as per usual.
Small nos may work somewhat for a ab rifter with a small degree of luck. Lag >>> proper timing.
Small nos wont help any ship with long range point and mwd , both mods use far to much cap for small nos to help.
And any cap use on weapons isnt going to help much either.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.12.07 11:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bobbeh So basically What your saying is you want to Nerf the 1 thing that can save a BS from a frigate. seriously thats stupid.
Without Neuts Local Rep cruisers and BC's and such would be neigh invincible N2M the Dramiel which would be the most powerful ship in the game.
Don't get me Wrong i love it too cause my Sabre would be Invincible with the only counter being neuts. i could run circles around BS and bubble the Sh*t outa them
Neuts work as they are supposed to, cause hey if we wanna be realistic a frigate webbing a nano BS should get towed along behind like a sleigh behind a snowmobile.
i'd be ok with them fixing nos's in a way that they were more effective as right now there sh*t. But Nerfing Neuts is f*cking Stupid
What do you mean by save a bs from a frig ?
Any BS in the Game can tank any frig in the Game ? Certainly long enough to get back to a gate and jump out.
BS have huge tanks you know.
Whats stupid is a BS has a 1 slot fix to prevent it being tackled by any frig.
BS are not supposed to be roaming around hostile space unsupported.
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