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ChaeDoc II
Gallente Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.12 05:22:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 12/12/2010 05:08:34 2) Espionage is the crime - what part of did you miss? Publishing secret documents in the US has always been illegal. Look more closely into the cases you've cited and you will see that.
Right, 'in the US'. Look more closely at this case and you see he never published them in the US.
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Tora Nevaal
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Posted - 2010.12.12 05:38:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Tora Nevaal on 12/12/2010 05:40:20 Ok, here is my rebuttal to Toshiro, and I will leave it at this because I am truly enjoying this thread and do not wish to see it locked for discussing politics.
The PFC who leaked the cables- not for money but because he had become disenfranchised with the war and his leadership- has been prosecuted for it. Since wikileaks and Assange are not American citizens, and operated outside of US jurisdiction, they did not commit any crime. Frankly, I can not believe that anyone wouldn't want to know the secret dealings that their government does and how it impacts the lives of it's citizens. Do you not want to know that you are being lied to? Does that not anger you?
As for the tangent into terrorism/ America's illegitimate warmongering, there is no war on terror. There were no terrorist in Iraq before we got there. Bush Sr. INTENTIONALLY did not invade Baghdad in the first Gulf War because he knew back then that an insurgency would be the result. ****** may have been evil, but at least he kept the water running and the populace in relative peace. We have killed at least 100's of thousands of civilians. Hell, we use 1000lb bombs to destroy mud huts in villages. If an IED goes off, we arrest indiscriminately every person within a 2 mile radius. That is how insurgents are made. The only proof that we had of Iraq ever having WMD's is the fact that we gave them their WMD's back in the 80's when they were fighting Iran.
Anyways, in an attempt to steer this thread back on track here is the quote from US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, one of my 4 dozen bosses:
"But let me û let me just offer some perspective as somebody whoÆs been at this a long time. Every other government in the world knows the United States government leaks like a sieve, and it has for a long time. And I dragged this up the other day when I was looking at some of these prospective releases. And this is a quote from John Adams: ôHow can a government go on, publishing all of their negotiations with foreign nations, I know not. To me, it appears as dangerous and pernicious as it is novel.ö . . . Now, IÆve heard the impact of these releases on our foreign policy described as a meltdown, as a game-changer, and so on. I think û I think those descriptions are fairly significantly overwrought. The fact is, governments deal with the United States because itÆs in their interest, not because they like us, not because they trust us, and not because they believe we can keep secrets. Many governments û some governments deal with us because they fear us, some because they respect us, most because they need us. We are still essentially, as has been said before, the indispensable nation. So other nations will continue to deal with us. They will continue to work with us. We will continue to share sensitive information with one another. Is this embarrassing? Yes. Is it awkward? Yes. Consequences for U.S. foreign policy? I think fairly modest."
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Baneken
Gallente School of the Unseen
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Posted - 2010.12.12 07:59:00 -
[273]
For the people in this thread who obviously missed the meaning of a saying "blue eyes" try this quote: "Most babies are born with blue eyes which often turn different colour as the child gets older"
And Toshiro that classic American rant about apple pies and anticommunism doesn't work any more so you might want to change the rhetoric.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.12 08:35:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
... Stuff I said ...
So you think governments are above the law. Nice to know you support North Korea
Idiot.
There is nowhere in any of my posts I said the government was above the law - and if you had paid the slightest bit of attention to the news in the US you'd see any number of government officials and military personnel who have been brought up on charges for any number of things.
I am for the Law. This guy has committed a crime by publishing US secrets - he should go to jail (or be hung ...).
But he has not committed a crime. He has simply done what any other media organisation would have done if they were given the USAs dirty secrets. If this was china or north korea it had happened to the USA would be calling him a hero. Your posts smack of "my country can do no wrong and must never have its secrets exposed for the world too see"
Welcome to the free world, we hope you enjoy your stay.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 09:50:00 -
[275]
1) @ ChaeDoc II - just because someone stole our secrets outside the United States doesn't mean they are not subject to our laws - if we can get our hands on them. If they are arrested and extradited to this country - we can convict them.
2) @ Tora Nevaal - This thread was pure politics from the first word - anything to do with this subject is pure politics - the mods just delete what they don't like. Since the mods are European - you will know when the US has won the argument as the thread will be closed.
See #1 above
Saying there is no war on terror is silly.
You are rigtht about why Bush The Elder didn't go into Iraq - but then did he know we would still be fooling with it's leader 10 years later? He has commented on that but I've forgotten what he said.
You have no figures for the number of innocent civilians we have killed. The vast majority of people who have been killed in Iraq - were killed by the Insurgents - OR - other groups that had a grudge with them.
Freedom isn't free. Every nation that has taken it's freedom has had to pay for it in blood. We did. France did. The UK did. Germany did. Each has a different hisotry but the path to the freedom they have today was long and bloody. Iraq - for the moment - is a free nation. We have given them a chance. I hope - for their sake - that they don't screw it up. China and Russia could have won their freedom - but lost the war - and the communists took over - then killed millions of people in their collectivization campaigns.
You obviously know nothing about our tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan.
WMD's is a red herring. It was an excusse to do something for which no excuse was required - but - they did have WMD's in Iraq and we did find them. Whether the leadership of that nation knew where they were or how what percentage of them are still buried in the desert is unknown. There is an Iraqi General who has told us exactly where they went and I've seen it on a map on the internet. We just don't know how much truth there is to that. But again - that was irrelevant. Bush The Elder was mistaken in not taking Iraq's old leadership out when he had the chance.
As to the impact of the specific documents leacked ... I am not an intelligence analyst - and couldn't tell you if I was. No one is going to tell you the truth about that - as THAT - is ANOTHER of our secrets. But - if you look at how intelligence is done - from historical examples - it is pieced together from bits of info gathered here and there. To just be given a massive dump of US secrets - would be bound to help - to some degree - anyone analyzing us.
Of course most governments dealing with us now will continue to do so on the same basis.
3) @ Baneken - So you're saying that you are an immature child?
In any case - the discussion of communism was accurate before they had succeeded in capturing any government and is still accurate to day. Just because something was said in the past does not make it untrue today. The "oh that's so five minutes ago" argument proposed by people like yourself reflects their attention span and demonstrates the lack of value to their opinions.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Haldane IV
Einstein's Dreams
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Posted - 2010.12.12 10:21:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Haldane IV on 12/12/2010 10:22:49 I Think IÆll chime in with my four-pennorth, from my perspective living in the UK.
- That quote from John Adams, referenced by Robert Gates in Tora BevaalsÆ post:
What he is saying in effect is what the various commentators here who occupying positions of office, or are assisting those in office, or are aspiring to it have been saying; namely that Assange is a villain because he indiscriminately* released stuff that had been classified as in the public interest as best kept secret, and because it was all dumped out indiscriminately w/o regard to what harm it might do*, he could not be saved by the argument that there was any particular bit of information where "whistle-blowing" was in fact in the public interest. That does make sense, and made me think "yes I can agree with that principal"
BUT the problem is that the politicos saying this are the same ones who have over the last couple of years very publicly lost the generals publics' trust through all the exposes of lying (e.g. Blair and WMDs) and corruption (e.g. MPs expenses scandals ) and avoiding saying what they actually think (e.g. Bigot-gate et al).
Add to that the stories going the rounds about the use of, shall we say "extra-judicial" measures to try to shut down wiki-leaks by those in power in various countrys (and even reports some members of the political class advocate kidnapping and assassination) and, its little wonder if the ordinary man in the street thinks ôsuch peopleö simply cannot be trusted to decide what is in the national interest to be keep secret, so its better to have everything out in the open, and politicos they donÆt trust saying "No, No, its dangerous, we know best, lock it all away somewhere secret and lock up Assange with it", just adds fuel to that climate of distrust. So, to the politicians he is a villain, but to the general public, he is a hero, and the further tragedy is that I wonder whether the politicians realise (or rather, care) about this disconnection. The tangible consequence of that disconnection (and ofc availability of the inter-net) is, however, wiki-leaks.
* Although Malcolm Turnbull (remember him) has said he has heard Assange might actually have offered to let the relevant US Government agency do a "blue-pencil" edit of the stuff he had and proposed to release, and got rebuffed
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 10:22:00 -
[277]
4) @ baltec1 - Yes - he HAS committed a crime. He has committed Espionage and any other media that has published these documents has committed a crime too. Look up The Pentagon Papers on Wikipedia for an example of how that can work out. Note that I'm not happy about it but what they got away with back then does not mean they can do it now.
The Pentagon Papers
Quote:
Times v. United States is generally considered a victory for an extensive reading of the First Amendment, but as the Supreme Court ruled on whether the government had made a successful case for prior restraint, its decision did not void the Espionage Act or give the press unlimited freedom to publish classified documents. A majority of the justices ruled that the government could still prosecute the Times and the Post for violating the Espionage Act by publishing the documents. Ellsberg and Russo were not acquitted of violating the Espionage Act; they were freed due to a mistrial from irregularities in the government's case.
Thus, we have a situation like that with O. J. Simpson - where he was guilty as hell - but got away with it because he had good lawyers, the prosecution fumbled the ball and the jury were idiots.
As to our attitude towards someone who had done this to one of our enemies - yes - if he harmed one of our enemies - sure we'd give him a pat on the back and a safe place to live.
But then - WE are the good guys. If you don't know that - you're an idiot.
I've never said my country could do no wrong. We abandoned the people of South East Asia to the communists and millions of them died because of that. We should hang our heads in shame every time the word Vietnam is mentioned. But - no - our secrets should never be published and we should prosecute anyone who does publish them.
If anyone in the US has done something illegal - they have a better chance of being called to account for it than most places in the world. It's hard to do anything in complete secrecy - look at Mylie Cyrus - and there are people all over who for whatever reason are going to tell if they see something they think is wrong or which they can exploit to their own ends. The thing is - there are legal ways of doing this. We are a nation of laws. Criminals are let go all the time because the government wasn't perfect in the way it conducted it's case. Daniel Ellsberg got off because the prosecutors muffed their case - and the courts let him go. Ellsberg and Simpson both should be behind bars to this day - but - because we are so persnickity about our laws - we let them go - as guilty of their crimes as they were.
If anything - the US is law abiding to a fault.
I'll try to covey what this is all about in terms some people on this board may understand.
It's like - the US is the Microsoft of the world. Microsoft gave the world an operating system standard. I am old enough to remember what it was like before there was a dominant O/S. It was chaos. You bought a computer and - by design - you couldn't get very much to run on it that wasn't provided by the vendor that sold it to you. They couldn't even read each others disk formats. Having one Software design that anyone can build hardware for or write software to - is so precious a price can not be put on it. Nothing we have today would be possible in the form it is - without Microsoft. Yet - people hate Microsoft. They hate Microsoft because it is the big company and they are (as we all are) little people without the resources to fight them successfully. People create these little niche technologies like Mac's and Linux, championing them as some kind of "People's" response to the oppression of Microsoft - when nothing could be further from the truth. Mac's and Linux - are just like the bad old days of computers, when everything was proprietary and/or wouldn't work together because the developers wouldn't cooperate.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 10:41:00 -
[278]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 12/12/2010 10:47:20
Originally by: Haldane IV Edited by: Haldane IV on 12/12/2010 10:22:49
...
Stuff I have to delete to make room for a post.
...
*sigh ...
So - because human beings aren't perfect - and thus elect officials which aren't perfect - we should just allow anyone who wants to - to publish our nations deepest secrets?
Is that what your saying?
We are all imperfect. Nothing human beings have ever done is perfect. Most of it is a cluster **** of competing egos, biases and self interest. But ... since human beings are never going to be perfect - things being SNAFU - is just the way it is. That doesn't mean people don't try to fix things - they do. They do try and they do fix them - and then something else breaks or the people who don't like what they did undo it. Rome was that way.
People who lose faith in their governments ... well ... their lack of faith doesn't matter. Everything is going to be all ****ed up all the time no matter what. We just don't have a replacement for human beings - and - if we did - would you want THEM telling us what to do? I think not.
It's like this - we hire people to run the government. They go in there and they do the things they want to do and - if we don't like it - we can always vote them out. Then a new group can go in there and **** up the country THEIR way. But that is how it works.
Now ... as to all these rumors about what is happening with assassins and such ... have you seen Elvis today? How about the UFO's? Or - The Men Who Shot Kennedy?
Mostly ... free countries don't do stuff like what these rumors are saying. Why? Because it doesn't work. See my last post. Someone will rat them out if they do - and they will have proof - not just rumors someone made up on the internet.
BUT - OF COURSE - people will still go around rumor mongering - because they like it! Conspiracy theories and such are fun! Ooooh ... the governments hiding things ... what mysteries lay untold ... aaahhhhh ... Crop Circles, The Bermuda Triangle, Ancient Aliens ... and on and on and on.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Haldane IV
Einstein's Dreams
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Posted - 2010.12.12 12:23:00 -
[279]
Hi Toshiro
I was not actually saying whether I personally think wikileaks is right or wrong, rather the observation I was making is that the wikileak phenomenon and the amount of popular support for Assange shows that at this particular time, with the capacity of the internet to spread information about, what has been attracting that support to WikiLeaks cannot be ignored or made light of by Governments.
The reason it cannot be ignored is because that support runs contrary to what the John Adams quote says about governing a country.
ôOrdinaryö people here in the UK hailing from all walks of life, not just those usually politically interested/active/sophisticated, have got pretty annoyed about our politicians lies and corruption (imperfection is not the correct word) this past couple of years . Public confidence needs to be restored or a large number of people will carry on disagreeing with our politicians views, and keep on supporting wikileaks.
*sigh, indeed
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Gherlizz
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Posted - 2010.12.12 14:19:00 -
[280]
Don't let them get you down Toshiro.
~a friend in Canada
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.12 14:35:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 12/12/2010 14:43:21
I find it funny that a country that was founded by a common feeling of distrust in the sovereign has produced so many willing 'Koolaid' drinkers. Especially history majors
So Toshiro, were do you get your numbers about death tolls in Iraq and Afghanistan, and where do you verify that they are actually factual? I am not saying that they are fudged; I am saying that the US has ****ed up enough in my lifetime for me to question everything that they do. As well as the leaders of most industrialized nations and Nation States that pose a threat to the industrial world have done as well.
I am not saying I support Assange in totality, but I do support that original operating mission of Wikileaks.
Personally, if a government is going to make me a criminal for making decisions that should not be criminal and say that I am accountable for my actions since I am a legal adult with 'full capacities', then when my government gets caught with their pants down, legally or illegally, then they should face charges.
With technology as it is this type of thing is not preventable and will continue to occur as long as people with access and a 'conscious' exist at any level in governmental organizations world wide, so the real debate should be revolving around the following question.
Originally by: Jordan Stancil from The National Is our national interest better served by engaging in the kinds of interference in foreign countries that secrecy permits, or is it better served by requiring openness that might restrain our ability to interfere?
EDIT: As for criminals getting off all the time, that is mostly true primarily for people with excessive amounts of money to subvert the legal system. Most 'normal' US citizens do not get away with crimes they may or may not have committed. Just look at the US prison system. So you saying the the US is law abiding to a fault is laughable honestly.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2010.12.12 14:44:00 -
[282]
Got to love brainwashed US citizens who cannot write a straight sentence in their own language, but want to explain the world to everyone else. ;-)
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.12 14:46:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Pan Crastus Got to love brainwashed US citizens who cannot write a straight sentence in their own language, but want to explain the world to everyone else. ;-)
Instead of posting a worthless bait post why do you not cite some of the sentences you take head with and make your points. Otherwise you are a pedantic *****.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2010.12.12 14:54:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Instead of posting a worthless bait post why do you not cite some of the sentences you take head with and make your points. Otherwise you are a pedantic *****.
I am hereby confirming that I am a pedantic ***** and that you missed the point. But don't expect me to address any of the mindless drivel the brainwashed folk have been spewing forth, it's just the same boring bull**** the right-wing politicians are spreading through the usual media for dumb people and has been commented far too many times already.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.12 15:08:00 -
[285]
This may come as a shock to you Toshiro but US laws on espionage (which will not hold up in court according to most lawyers and judges) do not reach outside of the united states and in Europe he has broken no laws. Acording to your post, just about every single media outlet in Europe should be shut down as a spy agency.
He was GIVEN these documents and even asked the USA what they wanted redacted. The USA refused to help so he gave access to several media orgaisations who are still sifting through the papers removing names and papers which might result in deaths.
Its ironic how people who bang on about how America is a beacon of freedom are so quick to defend it in stopping a free press across the globe when it doesnt suit them.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.12 15:11:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
I am hereby confirming that I am a pedantic ***** and that you missed the point. But don't expect me to address any of the mindless drivel the brainwashed folk have been spewing forth, it's just the same boring bull**** the right-wing politicians are spreading through the usual media for dumb people and has been commented far too many times already.
Confirming you made three points and I missed none of them
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2010.12.12 15:38:00 -
[287]
WikiLeaks documentary from ArteTV (French & German broadcast)
sorry guys, no english version available :(
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ChaeDoc II
Gallente Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.12 16:31:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
1) @ ChaeDoc II - just because someone stole our secrets outside the United States doesn't mean they are not subject to our laws - if we can get our hands on them. If they are arrested and extradited to this country - we can convict them.
Cheers for replying.
What makes you think he has stolen anything from the United States?
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Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.12 16:34:00 -
[289]
Edited by: Reiisha on 12/12/2010 16:34:48
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
1) @ ChaeDoc II - just because someone stole our secrets outside the United States doesn't mean they are not subject to our laws - if we can get our hands on them. If they are arrested and extradited to this country - we can convict them.
Wow. Are you serious? So why doesn't this go for China, Russia etc? Why is the US demanding their people back when they commit a crime there? Are you for real?
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Freedom isn't free. Every nation that has taken it's freedom has had to pay for it in blood. We did. France did. The UK did. Germany did. Each has a different hisotry but the path to the freedom they have today was long and bloody. Iraq - for the moment - is a free nation. We have given them a chance. I hope - for their sake - that they don't screw it up. China and Russia could have won their freedom - but lost the war - and the communists took over - then killed millions of people in their collectivization campaigns.
All of those countries you name took their own freedom. No country can be called free if freedom is forced on them.
China and Russia both rose up against their respective aristocracies in the early 1900's, but they are a product of different cultural development. They aren't a descendant of the Western cultural history, they don't care much for democracy, at least not as much as you like to think. You're under the delusion that everyone in the world has the exact same ideals, feelings and morals.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk In any case - the discussion of communism was accurate before they had succeeded in capturing any government and is still accurate to day. Just because something was said in the past does not make it untrue today. The "oh that's so five minutes ago" argument proposed by people like yourself reflects their attention span and demonstrates the lack of value to their opinions.
Any form of government is not inherently evil, unlike what you're indoctrinated to think. Democracy is not inherently good either, it can easily be used to ruse the population into thinking they have power. *hint*
Right now it seems like most of the Western world, the US especially, are simply subject to a case of "what goes around, comes around". They just don't want to admit it, like Toshiro here proves.
I still have to find an opening to use the banking secrets "deal" the US tried to force down the EU's throat.
"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
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Ava Starfire
Minmatar Nordanverdr Modr
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Posted - 2010.12.12 16:35:00 -
[290]
The "communists" lost "the battle" against democracy, apple pie, and high-school football? Really?
I am old enough to remember (vividly) the cold war's death throes in the 1980s, and am also old enough to remember 75% or so of the population of the US being total ****s to us because we were that family from "russia" (Romania actually, but Americans are largely a herdlike, stupid bunch) and who thought they were being patriotic by doing so. I am old enough to remember the hostage debacle in Iran, the Contra Affair, the attack of an airliner, the tensions with Libya, supplying the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan with weapons and SAMs (that was a good plan, eh?) and air raid drills in elementary school. You mentioned Vietnam; maybe you should do some research outside of books approved by the Most Holy Texas Schoolbook Authority and get some real information on that entire sorry stain on US history.
All of the above was done in the name of "freedom" and all of it was total garbage. Maybe, just maybe, you should also look into exactly WHY the current government of Iran is so hostile to the "west", and to the US and UK in particular. Pssst. It has to do with, surprise, oil.
For the sake of those of us who DO travel outside of the US, please, think, then type, speak, etc. Secrets and maintaining them are important. But so is exposing lies and criminal behaviour. And those casualties in Iraq? 1.5 million civilians. Killed in combat, so yes, that includes those killed by insurgents. It does not change the fact that those people are DEAD, and that they are DEAD because we started a war...based on lies.
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ChaeDoc II
Gallente Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.12 16:38:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 12/12/2010 05:08:34
We saved the world from facism.
And now you want to bring it back. Death to free media.
It always makes me smile when some American says how they won the war, as if they were the only ones fighting it. Ignoring the fact that Europe had had a much bigger contribution to the war than the Americans.
We might have lost the war without you, but you'd have lost the war without Europe. Stop forgetting that.
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Vogue
Skynet Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.12 17:00:00 -
[292]
Edited by: Vogue on 12/12/2010 17:06:36 Every form of rule is a tyranny. True absolute freedom is anarchy. USA offers the most enlightened tyranny. China is slowly and surely expanding its strategic reach around the world. Now you could call China amoral as its doing business with a lot of dodgey regimes in Africa and elsewhere. But Africa has always being ignored because most countries in that continent are hopelessly corrupt. Whereas the US lead west wants countries to get their 'democracy' goody bag with t-shirt pens and stickers. How corrupt democracies are that sign up for this scheme is superfluous to the USA.
There is a tyranny in the world now that has not one single master. It is globalisation. It has turned out not to be the win win the west has hoped for. But as far as emancipating the poor in this world it is more effective than the 'democracy goody bag' scheme. And whiny white liberals blaming famine and starvation on the white man. This is why I think China doing business with countries apolitically is not such a evil. After all it was Vietnam's recent emergence as a exporting economy that pre-empted USA's new fresh start diplomatic relations with it.
The worse deal in this world is if you are a small country stuck on strategic fault lines. This includes the Russian periphery where Russia and US proxy forces play power games. And somewhat from that around China - North Korea, Japan.
..................................................
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Baneken
Gallente School of the Unseen
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Posted - 2010.12.12 17:52:00 -
[293]
Edited by: Baneken on 12/12/2010 17:54:02 Man, I always wondered how on earth laws like "no teaching fractional numbers (ie. 1 1/3) in schools or libraries because it's too hard for the kids to learn" could actually pass any sort of legislative branch but after reading mindless rants from a presumably American citizens in this very thread it's no longer a mystery. You Americans really should realise that not everything revolves around you in the western world even if it did so for the last 50 years; times are changing and other countries like china and Russia (after a decline) are once again entering the world stage.
As for the WMD's in Iraq, only truth is that they were never found, if there had been any they would had been found by now. Now people say that US vent to war because of oil in Iraq maybe but that also is more or less hear say. So are the claims that US vent to Afghanistan because of rare earth metals needed for microchips and other such things (which currently only are found from china in large deposits).
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.12.12 17:52:00 -
[294]
Originally by: ChaeDoc II
We might have lost the war without you, but you'd have lost the war without Europe. Stop forgetting that.
Without Europe the only war would've been the one between the US and Japan, and they clearly won that. Silly statement is silly.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Amicus Morte Dead Muppets
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:08:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Louis deGuerre on 12/12/2010 19:09:34 I'm totally grateful for the US liberating western europe in WOII. But to be fair, if they had not been attacked by Japan they might not even have gotten involved in the war. Russia would have crushed the Germans eventually, even without US launching a western front. So I'm more thankful for Japan for attacking US and forcing them to get involved and preventing me from having to grown up in a Communist state, and with my attitude probably dying in a gulag.
EDIT : Right, can we get back on topic now ? ----- Amicus Morte is recruiting. Dive into the world of 0.0 !
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:24:00 -
[296]
*shrug*
1) Imperfection categorizes human beings - corruption is one form of imperfection - and is rampant throughout the world - much more so in many less developed nations where it is an intrinsic part of their culture. Most Cultures are either Family Cultures or Rule of Law Cultures. Family Cultures are inherently corrupt as people put their families above the law. Most Western Democracies have Rule of Law cultures - which work better.
2) I haven't posted any statistics - I've just pointed out flaws in some others have cited. As to the deaths in Iraq being caused by the US starting the war - SH - was the leader who started that war by invading Kuwait. For those not paying attention that war didn't end until SH was removed from power. Look at the deaths that AH caused when he and Japan started WWII - were we just supposed to role over then and let them do whatever they wanted because people might die if we resisted? SH started that war, the US went into Saudi Arabia to defend it, ObL attacked the US for putting it's infidel feet on the holy soil of Saudi Arabia and we went into Afghanistan to get at he and the Taliban he was allied with - then we finally went into Iraq to finish what we should have done 10 years before. So - none of the casualties there was caused by the US. The US was responding to actions by others - such as SH. THEN after we had overthrown SH - terrorists swarmed to Iraq to fight us and tensions between ethnic groups there erupted and they began killing each other just as they did in the former states of Yugoslavia. Those tensions were always there. Just as with Tito (though not the same way) SH kept these people under control. Just as Tito couldn't live forever - SH wasn't going to be around forever either and those tensions were going to come out. If SH had not attacked Kuwait - nothing that happened subsequently to that would have happened in his life time. He brought about his own downfall however long it too.
3) To clarify something - Yes - there are a lot of people in jail in the US. They are criminals - thus - the US Governments, Federal, State and Local - are Law Abiding and put those citizens who aren't in jail.
4) US Laws are binding on anyone we can get our hands on who breaks them. Someone being a citizen of another country and committing crimes against us in another country is not immune to prosecution. What is so hard about that concept? It was OUR secrets that were stolen. That is a crime against us. What is so hard about that concept? We have extradition treaties with many nations who will arrest someone who has committed crimes against us - and turn them over to us. That doesn't always happen - but it is not a case of it NEVER happening either.
5) For those not conversant with certain legal concepts - someone who steals something from you - does not get the option to give back part of what they stole and have everything be OK. In fact - cooperation with such people in negotiating what they do with what they stole from you - is to some degree an acceptance of what they have done. Thus - we could not negotiate with some little **** who had a bunch of our secrets as to which he would reveal and which he wouldn't. NONE of them was the only acceptable answer.
6) This is NOT the same thing as airing some politicians personal dirty laundry in public. If the politician has done something illegal or immoral and it is published - that is not the same thing as espionage. Espionage is a deadly serious crime.
7) Relisha - sorry but ... everything you said in reply to me was wrong. Re-read what I said - that is what is right. As to not being able to force freedom on someone - look at Germany and Japan. Of course - the thing here is that - what you do isn't to force freedom on people but to give them the opportunity - at which most people leap - as did the students at Tien An Men who built their own Statue of Liberty - before they were crushed.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:29:00 -
[297]
8) The communists won their revolutions. Then the Soviet Union lost the Cold War. Iran attacked the US because it let the Shah into the US to be treated for cancer. The Shah, whatever his faults, tried to bring his nation out of the middle ages. The Mullahs thought the middle ages were great and turned the peasants against him - and us.
9) Failure to allow the publication of government secrets is not the death of free speech. How stupid can you be?
10) Every form of government is NOT a form of Tyranny. Anarchy is a complete lack of government. Yes - most of the world is corrupt. Globalization is a fact. It's like nuclear science. There is no choice in either happening or being discovered. Democracy is the worst form of government - except for everything else. What counts is the ability to vote the bastards out. All other forms of governments don't have that moderating effect. If they have an enlightened ruler - they aren't that bad - but if they have a bad ruler - you can't get rid of him.
11) Actually as Baneken has noted the world did revolve around the US for a long time - but, for now, it still does today. That's just a statement of fact. We are the dominant military power and the dominant economic power. Everything everyone in the world does - ultimately - is still effected by what the US does. Other nations hate that - but what the hell are we supposed to do about it? Actually ... what we are doing is running our economy on the rocks - so - what are you complaining about? Yes - the world revolves around the United States of America. It does. Our TV programs are everywhere. Our culture dominates the world. If you don't like it - there's nothing I can do about it. It's just a fact.
But - yes - wait 50 years and the Chines will be running things - and the world will revolve around THEM. Then all the little people of the world who hate the fact that the world doesn't revolve around they and their little cultures - can hate China - but for now - they'll just write self absorbed, ignorant posts on the internet and hate us. But they will write all those hate messages in our language - because - at least for now - the world still does revolve around us ... not that I give a damn.
It would be nice though if all those former Imperialists who colonized so much of the world - would once more get off their asses and help out. But that's not likely to happen. So much more fun to sit on the fence and make smart remarks about the people who are out there trying to keep the world from going to hell in a hand bag.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:45:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre Edited by: Louis deGuerre on 12/12/2010 19:09:34 I'm totally grateful for the US liberating western europe in WOII. But to be fair, if they had not been attacked by Japan they might not even have gotten involved in the war. Russia would have crushed the Germans eventually, even without US launching a western front. So I'm more thankful for Japan for attacking US and forcing them to get involved and preventing me from having to grown up in a Communist state, and with my attitude probably dying in a gulag.
EDIT : Right, can we get back on topic now ?
We'd have gotten into it with Germany sooner or later Japan or not but the Germans would have won the war without us - not the Russians.
The Russian Army was only able to mount the types of assaults it did on the Germans because of American Trucks. That is what gave them their mobility. The Russians built great tanks but they didn't have enough trucks.
The other thing is - without the US Air Force bombing Germany - all those fighter planes the Germans devoted to intercepting them would have been in Russia - and that would have stopped the Russians too. It was the Germans loss of air superiority that doomed them - and they lost it because of American Bombers. Not to mention what the American Bombers did with all those bombs.
Of course - the person you really need to thank for Germany's defeat - the one person in the world who did more than any other to bring that about - was AH. Of course without him - there wouldn't have been a war - but he is the one who did the most to bring defeat to his nation.
The British Empire and the Soviet Union certainly made major commitments to the war. The British were alone for a year or so before ******, instead of finishing them off - attacked The Soviet Union. And the Soviets absorbed the major part of the German Army but without the US - they would have lost - or - at least not have won.
Had Germany beaten the British Empire and the Soviet Union ... we still would have had the population and industrial capacity to beat them but whether or not we would have had the will is another question.
Japan and Germany were aware of our population and industry but they dismissed us as being weak, counting on the will of their military's to beat us.
In that - they did have a point. The communists in Vietnam counted on the same thing - and against the children of the Depression Generation that won WWII - they succeeded. My cry baby generation of spoiled brats whined and cried until the abysmal leadership of our nation at that time quit.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Vogue
Skynet Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.12 20:24:00 -
[299]
It is a tribal world. The, I shall say, progressive friction of people wanting a better deal in life by leveraging power through groups - ethnic, social, corporate, national, financial, etc. I really hope the world can continue with the relative peace it has enjoyed since the end of WW2. A peace which also unfortunately includes a decadent sense of false entitlement. The human condition is weird. We are though a predatory species - two eyes forward not sidewards. It takes a bloody war sometimes to club sense into us.
There is no such thing, in a political context, of a leader of men who wins points for telling us there is trouble ahead so we must sacrifice a little now for long term gain. So the human race will have its paradigm shifts and sometimes run into a brick wall. Greed is a huge constant in human affairs. I hope the world can learn and adapt without large scale war.
So I hope in 2050 there are Americans, Europeans, Asian and other people around the world ranting at each other in various mediums of discussion. But these did not start a war
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.12.12 20:36:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
7) Relisha - sorry but ... everything you said in reply to me was wrong. Re-read what I said - that is what is right. As to not being able to force freedom on someone - look at Germany and Japan. Of course - the thing here is that - what you do isn't to force freedom on people but to give them the opportunity - at which most people leap - as did the students at Tien An Men who built their own Statue of Liberty - before they were
Wikileaks stole nothing. Manning however, should be shot.
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