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northwesten
Amarr Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.12 20:42:00 -
[301]
Ron Paul on wikileaks
I see some people really making dumb comments about this.
Now he such a bad man then why is all the News Papers who have printed this docs have been charged?
I think the US government ****ed up and they over reacting like a snobby child. Now I hope the US government sort their house out.
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Tora Nevaal
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Posted - 2010.12.12 21:48:00 -
[302]
Edited by: Tora Nevaal on 12/12/2010 21:54:27 "Well sir, although I may disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Has anyone actually read any of the leaks? I hear a lot about lives at stake and national secrets being divulged, but no one has shown any evidence of this yet. In fact, wikileaks is releasing the cables at such a sluggish pace I'm almost positive that they're editing out any threatening details.
It's been judged by some as detrimental the indiscriminate stance that wikileaks has taken on what information that they release. The way I see it that fact alone is necessary for them to function in the manner that they do and is their strongest facet. They don't pick and choose what they feel is relevant or is not, they have no agenda or ulterior motive. They are simply a proxy for the free flow of information. A means to an end.
Someone mentioned that no human controlled system is perfect, the US government included. Well how can one expect to fix a flawed system if you don't know where the problems lie. That is the ultimate purpose of the entire project to begin with. And as it has been stated before, wikileaks and Assange are not singling out America; they are just disseminating the information that has been giving to them. If anyone goes to the site they would see multiple leaks from other nations both friendly and hostile to the US. Americans like to say that we support freedom of speech and freedom of the press as ardently as it is defended by the constitution, but usually that fervor only goes so far as it benefits them.
And I'm sorry to set isolated opinions wrong, but take it from someone who has seen a fairly diverse cross section of this planet and the people who inhabit it- the world does not revolve around you, me, a country, or any single entity for that matter.
And please stop going off on random tangents of misinformed history lessons and political discourses of parties not involved with the topic at hand.
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Vogue
Skynet Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.12 21:59:00 -
[303]
10 print "" 20 goto 10.
/Looked for turtle images but cba
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ChaeDoc II
Gallente Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.12 22:27:00 -
[304]
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: ChaeDoc II
We might have lost the war without you, but you'd have lost the war without Europe. Stop forgetting that.
Without Europe the only war would've been the one between the US and Japan, and they clearly won that. Silly statement is silly.
You think they beat Japan without Europe?
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.12.12 22:41:00 -
[305]
Edited by: So Sensational on 12/12/2010 22:44:45
Originally by: ChaeDoc II
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: ChaeDoc II
We might have lost the war without you, but you'd have lost the war without Europe. Stop forgetting that.
Without Europe the only war would've been the one between the US and Japan, and they clearly won that. Silly statement is silly.
You think they beat Japan without Europe?
No.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.12 23:10:00 -
[306]
Originally by: northwesten Ron Paul on wikileaks
I see some people really making dumb comments about this.
Now he such a bad man then why is all the News Papers who have printed this docs have been charged?
I think the US government ****ed up and they over reacting like a snobby child. Now I hope the US government sort their house out.
Too true. As i said before, what crimes has Julian committed? No one can answer that except to say 'none'.
And how was one army private able to get a hold of so much info, smuggle it out of whatever base he/she was on, and get it out of the country completely undetected?
What happened if the person in question decided to send it all instead to a network of spies, where they wouldn't publish it? Would the dumb people there blame the spies for receiving it? I doubt it alot.
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Ava Starfire
Minmatar Nordanverdr Modr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 01:50:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Vogue
So I hope in 2050 there are Americans, Europeans, Asian and other people around the world ranting at each other in various mediums of discussion. But these did not start a war
This. And when one nation, any nation, begins to build too much influence, unique identity always takes a back seat to dominant culture. I like my world varied.
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2010.12.13 02:22:00 -
[308]
For the lulz : Transparency and Open Government
ôIf you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance.ö
George Bernard Shaw
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2010.12.13 04:57:00 -
[309]
Let's see how long what we know as Democracy will prevail in the so-called "free world" when it's so obvious now that leaders have only come to terms with it because they could lie and cheat as much as they wanted.
Also, wikileaks has > 1800 mirrors now and I'm looking for a suitable ISP to build my 2nd. ;-)
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.12.13 05:05:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Headerman .. what crimes has Julian committed? No one can answer that except to say 'none'.
Which definition of 'crime' to you want to use? Defined as an act specifically spelled out in a law, then we can be pretty sure some lawyer out there is going to find one sooner or later. If the definition of 'crime' is more loose, then the act is obvious.
It is in this ambiguity that Assange and his ilk operate, it is within that ambiguity the idealist liars of the world **** and moan about all that they do not like, insisting others are held up to absolute ideals, while they them selves exploit the grey boundaries of pragmatic reality.
The Real Space Initiative - V7
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Baneken
Gallente School of the Unseen
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Posted - 2010.12.13 05:34:00 -
[311]
Speaking of transparency, I don't know about America but where I live you have access by law to any records that hold information about you this includes records that are corporate or state secrets. I'm no lawyer so I guess there are bound to be some legal hurdles involved though. Ofc. you would first need to know where to ask the record holder to release such information or that those records actually exist.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Louis deGuerre
Gallente Amicus Morte Dead Muppets
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Posted - 2010.12.13 09:46:00 -
[312]
Wikileaks - the game ----- Amicus Morte is recruiting. Dive into the world of 0.0 !
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RubenX
No Limit Productions
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:09:00 -
[313]
Is it true that Iceland is joining the fight? Linky here
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Matthias Howe
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:22:00 -
[314]
Time to saddle up. Revolution time.
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Nyu Shin
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:21:00 -
[315]
Frost over the World - talks to Assange's lawyer , Mark Stephens
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Headerman
Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.14 03:29:00 -
[316]
Edited by: Headerman on 14/12/2010 03:29:42 lol i won!
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2010.12.14 03:44:00 -
[317]
Originally by: northwesten Ron Paul on wikileaks
I see some people really making dumb comments about this.
Now he such a bad man then why is all the News Papers who have printed this docs have been charged?
I think the US government ****ed up and they over reacting like a snobby child. Now I hope the US government sort their house out.
Wow, a Republican who is not an evil ****, who knew!?
Delenda est achura. |
Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.14 04:12:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Wow, a Republican who is not an evil ****, who knew!?
He is closer to what Republicans are supposed to be then what the Republican party is currently.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
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Posted - 2010.12.14 05:35:00 -
[319]
As a reply to the subject of the OP... good?
You're naive if you think complete transparency is a good thing. If a government had complete transparency about it's military tactics and strategies, then the strategies wouldn't work since everyone knew what they were doing. It isn't particularly complicated to understand that people are at risk of dying when people know who other people work for in the line of intelligence gathering, either.
I don't understand people who like this guy. This guy reminds me of him the most.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.14 06:01:00 -
[320]
1) Again - Espionage is a crime. The soldier who stole the secrets committed it - but then so did anyone receiving those secrets. Right now - a lot of media people are banking on the idea that there are to many of them to prosecute - but - oh would I love to see a lot of journalists in jail. But I'll not go into my Journalist Rant here.
2) Threads digress all the time and bringing up examples of things - such as WWII - to make a point about the thread topic - inevitably leads to digressions. And yes - the US largely won the war against Japan by itself. The Chinese contributed a lot of people the Japanese shot - and the British under Slim defended India. The Australians were crucial in New Guinea but after that - went to Indonesia. Now - one reason there was not more participation by the British Empire was because the American's didn't want them. Some of this was ego - but - a lot of it had to do with different operating styles that had led to different equipment designs so that it made it hard for them to work together. A specific instance was the range of British ships.
The one thing I'd like people to think about here is how all this stuff really works - and maybe if they can understand that they can understand why the US has to protect it's right to have secrets.
First off - much of the legal world is governed by precedent. You do something and it sets a precedent. Then - in the future - people can argue - "Well you allowed this to happen - so why can't this other thing happen." Thus - while it can make some difference (as it did in the Pentagon Papers case) whether or not the secrets actually contained secrets - you still want to fight for your rights to have secrets - or you won't be allowed to have them. We have already seen people in this thread arguing that The Pentagon Papers proves that Free Speech trumps State Secrets - when that was not at all the case. So - the US has to prosecute people and defend it's right to have secrets - the same way - Disney or some other company must defend it's Intellectual Property Rights. If you don't defend them - you can lose them. Even though the US lost the Pentagon Papers cases - it did NOT lose it's right to defend itself against Espionage because it stood up for it's rights in court.
Now - next - lets think about how government works. How many of you really want to sit down and read 4,000 pages worth of stuff - not to mention the millions of pages that probably exist that haven't been leaked - just to make sure that the US was or was not doing something wrong? None of you want to do that. So - what we do - is we hire people to do that. These people are hired by the citizens of our country to do that job for us. The people who do the actual hiring - gain their authority to do so - from the electorate - during elections. More so - our nation hires people to create these secret documents - as well as run the military and civilian government apparatus.
All of these people - are working for the voters. We vote, the people we elect run the country - and the people they hire to do the jobs carry them out. All of those people are working for the citizens of this country.
Thus - when someone steals secrets from this country - they are not stealing them from some mysterious entity called "the government" they are stealing them from YOU and I. It is OUR nation. The people we have put in place to run this nation are carrying out jobs that WE put them in place to do.
Now, sure, you don't get everything the way you personally want it but - if you don't like what is being done - you can vote in the next election and try to send people to run the country more to your tastes.
So - YOU and I are the ones being robbed here.
Do any of you think that the US should have NO secrets?
It is the job of the people we hire to decide what is secret and what isn't - not some jerk on the net.
Other democracies work about the same way and have the same concerns.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.14 09:26:00 -
[321]
In the uk, it was a leak that brought to light the abuse of the expences system. Every party was doing it and without the leak it would never have been known that it was happening. Because of the leak the people found abusing the system were madeto pay back all themoney they took from the taxpayer.
We need people to bring the crimes of governments to light because no government will ever let out info thats shows them breaking laws. Most of the things comming out of these reports are either harmless stuff everyone already knows to do with other nations, such as Burma working on missile launch sites and nuke research sites or good things like the pope helping to free the captured british marine in Iran.
They are not US naval deployments, or nuke codes or a list of US spies in Lybia and while espionage is a crime wikileaks cannot be charged with it because they did not commit it. It has brought out the info like any other media organisation has done countless times over the decades. Your calls to silence the free press of the world falls in line with countries such as Iran and China.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Malevolence.
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Posted - 2010.12.14 09:51:00 -
[322]
Edited by: Louis deGuerre on 14/12/2010 09:52:02
Originally by: Selinate I don't understand people who like this guy.
It's not about liking the guy or not. He might be a total asshat, that is not the issue. The world is filled to the brim with asshats. If we were to lock em all up we wouldn't have enough people left to guard them. There are two discrete issues :
1. Assange is obviously the victim of an international witch hunt with ludicrous justifications.
2. The organization Wikileaks is also being persecuted and many see this as an attack on the free press.
The question is the guy is a **** or not is irrelevant. If we let (1) slide we should not cry when we get unjustly arrested because the government doesn't like our opinions. If we let (2) slide we should not cry that our government treats us like dolts and we don't care about freedom and free press.
The US should stop crying, HTFU and improve their security.
My country, which has a great reputation for freedom, still has a long history of ****ing over and lying to their citizens. Even with all our free press, when someone spills their guts about government lies they are hounded by my government, sometimes for decades on end. An organization like Wikileaks where you can 'ring the church bell' anonymously is really valuable. ----- Amicus Morte is recruiting. Dive into the world of 0.0 !
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:08:00 -
[323]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 14/12/2010 14:09:32
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
The one thing I'd like people to think about here is how all this stuff really works - and maybe if they can understand that they can understand why the US has to protect it's right to have secrets.
If a government is unable to keep their secrets under lock and key then they suffer the consequences when they get out. One does not kill the messenger; I will accept that you can go after the individual that gave up the information and give them their day in court though. Other then that the government should fix their leak and then go on with business and try not to let any get out again.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:39:00 -
[324]
1) It is ludicrous to compare jailing someone for publishing secret documents to jailing someone simply because they disagree with government policy.
2) There are "leaks" of internal government workings - and there are leaks of secret documents. Some have more protection than others - so it is not the same thing. There are ways of bringing government misconduct to the fore - without publishing the documents themselves. There are government oversight organizations that can be told about criminal activity on the part of the government. There are ways of doing things within the law. Just because someone exposes something the government did wrong - is no excuse for them to break the law to do it - and - the 'they were all doing it so there was no one you could tell' defense is horse ****. There is always someone within the government who is against what someone else in the government is doing. There is always someone in a democratically elected government that you can tell. Every government has law enforcement agencies - and you can call them. You don't have to break the law to do it.
3) If there is government wrong doing - it will come out. It always does. It's a question of who is brought in to the know of what is going on. Indiscriminately publishing secret documents is NEVER justified.
4) Who the hell is some jerk with a web site to decide what is going to be published and what isn't? It's not his ****ing job. Between trusting my elected officials and trusting him - I'll take my elected officials. The people elected to do the job work for the citizens - who the hell does some jerk with a web site work for? NO. It isn't his job to make decisions as to what is harmless and what isn't. The United States has a Freedom of Information Act - that allows average citizens to ask questions - then - someone whose job it is to determine what should be made public and what shouldn't decides what to release and what to keep secret. Not some jerk whose sole qualification is the fact that he has a web site.
5) If you leave it up to individuals - there is ALWAYS someone who can justify ANYTHING they want to do.
You just CAN NOT allow anyone who wants to - to decide what secret documents they are going to publish and what they aren't. This has nothing to do with freedom of the press. The press cannot commit crimes. Our law courts have upheld that. Those courts decide what is legal and what isn't. That is their job - not some jerk with a web site.
The idea - that anyone could be so stupid as to defend what this person has done - is really unbelievable ... unless ... you accept that all these silly little people think that their stupid silly little opinions matter. We are all free to sit here and argue over things - and people can be just as stupid and silly as they want. But those that take it into their heads that they are going to publish government secrets - had better be prepared to face the consequences.
Oh ... and these people aren't brave crusaders fighting for the good of the average person - they're idiots - with their own stupid little agenda's.
Comparing a democratic government defending it's secrets to a clerical state or a dictatorship - is stupid. There is no comparison - and anyone making one - is an idiot.
That is the reason there are espionage laws. To keep little idiots from exposing whatever it is in their stupid, silly little minds that they think should be. Those laws may not be able to stop them from doing it in the first place - but they can sure as hell make sure that they don't do it again.
There is NO justification for what these people have done. They have committed espionage - and they belong in jail. Of course - I think they should be hung as an example of how serious their crimes are but then ... we live in such a weak willed, mealy mouthed society that's unlikely to happen.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:48:00 -
[325]
Rush is that you?
Silly little people with silly little opinions better not rock the boat, you sir are a disgusting human being.
Delenda est achura. |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:50:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 14/12/2010 14:39:30 Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 14/12/2010 14:34:40
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
The one thing I'd like people to think about here is how all this stuff really works - and maybe if they can understand that they can understand why the US has to protect it's right to have secrets.
If a government is unable to keep their secrets under lock and key then they suffer the consequences when they get out. One does not kill the messenger; I will accept that you can go after the individual that gave up the information and give them their day in court though. Other then that the government should fix their leak and then go on with business and try not to let any get out again.
EDIT: And you trying to say that Assange is guilty of theft against each US citizen, and every citizen from every country that Wikileaks has published secrets from, is laughable because the opposite would also be true. If what you say is an acceptable line to draw, then the line goes in reverse. If we accept what you say, then it is also true that every citizen, of a country that partakes in espionage, is guilt of receiving illegal international information by proxy.
Slade
You really should know better than that Slade - you really should.
Nothing is perfect. People get into trusted positions - and they violate that trust. With millions of people and millions of secrets - it happens. Blaming the victim of theft isn't justified.
If a spy gathers information and passes it on to someone else - that other person is as guilty of espionage as the person who took the information. Why is that such a hard concept?
And ... no ... it doesn't work both ways.
Crimes are committed by individuals. An individual takes it into their head they are going to commit a crime - and then they do. They can commit a crime against one person - or they can commit a crime against many - but it is an individual that commits the crime. Saying that just because a spy committed espionage that everyone in his country is a spy too - is absurd.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.12.14 15:14:00 -
[327]
Edited by: So Sensational on 14/12/2010 15:16:35
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
If a spy gathers information and passes it on to someone else - that other person is as guilty of espionage as the person who took the information. Why is that such a hard concept?
I'm going to evemail you the Wikileaks files. I guess since you're guilty you'll be heading out back, digging a grave and shooting yourself? It's a hard concept because it is absolutely ******ed and makes no sense at all. To anyone but you and the FOX news goons that is.
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Nyu Shin
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Posted - 2010.12.14 15:27:00 -
[328]
JoshHalliday RT @newsbrooke: Bail is granted to #assange. With conditions. He's out. Next hearing jan 11th.
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2010.12.14 15:47:00 -
[329]
Matters little, they're just keeping an eye on him, swedish prosecutor's stalling for time till the US can come up with something to charge him with and tell Sweden to fork him over.
Delenda est achura. |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2010.12.14 16:08:00 -
[330]
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 14/12/2010 16:08:38
Originally by: Wendat Huron Matters little, they're just keeping an eye on him, swedish prosecutor's stalling for time till the US can come up with something to charge him with and tell Sweden to fork him over.
My thoughts. Guardian:
3.36pm: Hang on. Swedish prosecutors plan to launch an appeal against the decision to grant Assange bail. They have two hours to do lodge an appeal. Assange will not be freed until that process is over.
The Klingon prosecutor Orak.. ah the swedish prosecutor makes total ass of himself. With all background knowledge about the imaginary r4p3 story, the attempt to steal time looks too ridiculous.
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