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Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:35:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Reiisha on 08/12/2010 22:36:07
Quote: ItÆs not just the militant activist in Guelph, Ont., reading the cables. ItÆs the military dictatorships and the secret police in capitals all around the world. In the days and weeks ahead, people who dared to share information with U.S. diplomats will be rounded up. And thousands more who may have been willing to pass on pictures of tortured bodies will keep them in the desk drawer instead.
So. Ehm. Maybe i'm missing something, but aren't informants in the US who pass up information to other countries also rounded up? And (*cough Guantanamo cough*) having pictures of tortured bodies in your desk isn't limited to China and North Korea? Why can the US spy on everyone but no one is allowed to spy back?
Double standards anyone? Which seems to be the entire point of this excercise. 'Leaking' stuff from regimes and governments which blatantly admit to not being perfectly Westernized is kinda... Pointless, so the focus shifted to lifting the curtain in other places. The US would be the easiest Western target given it's massive bureaucracy, i'd argue it's easier to come by secret documents there than most smaller nations simply because there's more possible people to obtain them from.
"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:38:00 -
[152]
The following quote is an excerpt from an point of view paper, On WikiLeaks and Government Secrecy, published in The National. The last sentence is about where I see things need to go with this discussion.
Originally by: Jordan Stancil It was clear in these cases that NGOs, on their own, never could have achieved the outcomes we did because they never could duplicate what embassies already have: an information-gathering network that works seamlessly with state power, has direct access to leaders of other states and doesn't have to rely on the slow mechanisms of public pressure. Secrecy is one of the state's tools that can help in some human rights cases, so to the extent that WikiLeaks succeeds in taking that tool away, it will reduce the likelihood of helpful intervention.
But reducing our ability to keep secrets might also reduce the likelihood of counterproductive or aggressive intervention. What we are talking about here is the ability to interfere in the internal affairs of foreign countries and the extent to which secrecy makes us more or less able to do that. The secrecy issue WikiLeaks raises is not about striking the right balance between openness and safety. That is a false debate, because in cases where safety is truly threatened, it's obvious that openness must be curtailed, as it always has been ever since the First Continental Congress met in secret in 1774. The right debate is between differing definitions of the national interest. Is our national interest better served by engaging in the kinds of interference in foreign countries that secrecy permits, or is it better served by requiring openness that might restrain our ability to interfere?
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:38:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 08/12/2010 22:48:19
Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 08/12/2010 21:26:54 Wow, so many of you just HATE the USA you'll support anything that hurts us in any way shape or form (even if it hurts other countruies now and in the future), no matter how absurd it is.
So many of you want us to fall/fail/die.
We're not going to. We can get off the mat better than anyone.
Yeah that must be it, we just hate your freedom dude. It has absolutely nothing to do with illegal wars, civilian casualties, absurd security measures, being an absolute **** to the rest of the world, censorship and whatever else we dont know about it yet.
Oh, and before you ask.
I really don't care that much, but it's great to see your country and its beloved 'freedom' go down in flames while about half of you is cheering as it goes.
Originally by: Riedle
Sorry about you calling me names though - I'd expect more from a CSM deligate than to call someone with whom you disagree childish names.
You obviously don't know me but that's ok, forum newbies do exist after all. I have a special sig for that..ah, here it is:
á
I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything. |
Astenion
Blame The Bunny Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:45:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 08/12/2010 22:36:07
Quote: ItÆs not just the militant activist in Guelph, Ont., reading the cables. ItÆs the military dictatorships and the secret police in capitals all around the world. In the days and weeks ahead, people who dared to share information with U.S. diplomats will be rounded up. And thousands more who may have been willing to pass on pictures of tortured bodies will keep them in the desk drawer instead.
So. Ehm. Maybe i'm missing something, but aren't informants in the US who pass up information to other countries also rounded up? And (*cough Guantanamo cough*) having pictures of tortured bodies in your desk isn't limited to China and North Korea? Why can the US spy on everyone but no one is allowed to spy back?
Double standards anyone? Which seems to be the entire point of this excercise. 'Leaking' stuff from regimes and governments which blatantly admit to not being perfectly Westernized is kinda... Pointless, so the focus shifted to lifting the curtain in other places. The US would be the easiest Western target given it's massive bureaucracy, i'd argue it's easier to come by secret documents there than most smaller nations simply because there's more possible people to obtain them from.
Yes, you are missing something. Obviously you don't realize that everyone already collects on everyone. It's an unwritten rule in the intelligence world. In fact, one of the US's staunchest allies is the biggest collector of intel coming from the US, and not only does the US know about it, they only seek to minimize it, not even eradicate it. You see, when one person collects on another, that leaves a channel open for the ones doing the collecting. Think of it as a siphon: you can siphon liquid from one place but you can just as easily siphon it back.
So no, most definitely NOT double standards.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:49:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Astenion
Now THAT is a whole different can of worms. I think we can all agree that there is no such thing.
Maby not over in the USA but it is out there.
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Astenion
Blame The Bunny Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:50:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Astenion on 08/12/2010 22:51:32 Edited by: Astenion on 08/12/2010 22:50:44
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Astenion
Now THAT is a whole different can of worms. I think we can all agree that there is no such thing.
Maby not over in the USA but it is out there.
Ha! Where? Twitter? Blogs? Facebook? Not the press, my friend.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.08 22:57:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Astenion Edited by: Astenion on 08/12/2010 22:51:32 Edited by: Astenion on 08/12/2010 22:50:44
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Astenion
Now THAT is a whole different can of worms. I think we can all agree that there is no such thing.
Maby not over in the USA but it is out there.
Ha! Where? Twitter? Blogs? Facebook? Not the press, my friend.
BBC, Dispatures, several UK newspapers have done some very good investigations, then there are the indipendent reporters. Just recently there has been the rory peck awards which once again had some very good reporting.
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Astenion
Blame The Bunny Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:01:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Astenion on 08/12/2010 23:02:35
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Astenion Edited by: Astenion on 08/12/2010 22:51:32 Edited by: Astenion on 08/12/2010 22:50:44
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Astenion
Now THAT is a whole different can of worms. I think we can all agree that there is no such thing.
Maby not over in the USA but it is out there.
Ha! Where? Twitter? Blogs? Facebook? Not the press, my friend.
BBC, Dispatures, several UK newspapers have done some very good investigations, then there are the indipendent reporters. Just recently there has been the rory peck awards which once again had some very good reporting.
Don't even mention the BBC. They are a good source of news and less corrupt than the others, but that by no means means they aren't biased, and they're incredibly biased against the US.
You see, I'm American but I live in Europe. Our news agencies here are no more balanced than American news agencies, you just happen to agree with what they have to say.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:07:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Astenion
Don't even mention the BBC. They are a good source of news and less corrupt than the others, but that by no means means they aren't biased, and they're incredibly biased against the US.
Linkage
You see, I'm American but I live in Europe. Our news agencies here are no more balanced than American news agencies, you just happen to agree with what they have to say.
If America doesnt want bad press then it shouldnt do bad things.
Also linking CBS doesnt give you much of a leg to stand on. Its like linking the mirror to get your news on a tory government.
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Astenion
Blame The Bunny Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:10:00 -
[160]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Astenion
Don't even mention the BBC. They are a good source of news and less corrupt than the others, but that by no means means they aren't biased, and they're incredibly biased against the US.
Linkage
You see, I'm American but I live in Europe. Our news agencies here are no more balanced than American news agencies, you just happen to agree with what they have to say.
If America doesnt want bad press then it shouldnt do bad things.
Also linking CBS doesnt give you much of a leg to stand on. Its like linking the mirror to get your news on a tory government.
Ha yeah that was a mistake...clicked on the wrong video in the wrong tab. Have since removed it. I'll find the one I was looking for in a bit.
American deserves all the bad press it gets for doing bad things, don't get me wrong. But the ONLY press it gets from the BBC tends to be bad press, and that is not balanced news. Still a sight better than that travesty called Fox News, or as we like to call it, "Feaux News".
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Astenion
Blame The Bunny Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:18:00 -
[161]
This is what I was trying to link Baltec.
Linkage
Everyone knows the Bush administration deserves every bit of derision it gets, but derision shouldn't be coming from any news source, and the BBC dished it out daily. Again, I watch the BBC but I am not blind to its political leanings and neither should you be.
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Nyu Shin
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:27:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Astenion
Oh no, not the tinfoil hats...
I see , you even didn't tried. Assange was blogging in the 90ties. You can extract some of his thoughts there.
Tinfoils ? Yes you are right, they really exist.
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Riedle
Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:27:00 -
[163]
Quote: You obviously don't know me but that's ok, forum newbies do exist after all. I have a special sig for that..ah, here it is:
LOL
No I don't know you but I guess you are famous in your own mind. Whatever floats your boat as they say.
But thanks for confirming that you have no idea what you are talking about on this subject and the deepest you are capable of going is to throw a couple of insults out and then post a couple of irrelevent internet pics out from 2008 of the joker or some such.
Yep, you da man
LOL
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:32:00 -
[164]
Originally by: nahtoh
Originally by: Kalle Demos Isnt sex without consent ****?
Oh and dont give me that crap that "he had sex with someone when they were asleep", if you have ever had sex you would know how it would literally be impossible (without drugs / medical issues) to have sex with someone while their asleep.
Example, so I am at a friends and we have fun and after we are talking dirty and im like "you know what would be a funny way to wake up" and he is like "what" and im like "if you ****ed me awake", anyway he never did, but a few days after he did and GUESS WHAT, I woke up literally straight away.
Actualy a new law in Scotland thats just about to be enacted makes starting to have sex when your partner is sleeping can now lead to crimial charges. I think the resoning goes if your sleeping theres no way to give consent.
....Got any links on that perchance? _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
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Astenion
Blame The Bunny Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:41:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Nyu Shin Edited by: Nyu Shin on 08/12/2010 23:30:12
Originally by: Astenion
Oh no, not the tinfoil hats...
I see , you even didn't tried. Assange was blogging in 2006 . You can extract some of his thoughts there.
Tinfoils ? Yes you are right, they really exist.
damn ninja edit :-)
Yep, I saw conspiracy and shut it down immediately. Entertaining at best but not worth a second glance.
What you seem to call conspiracy, the rest of the world calls foreign policy. To take issue with a certain foreign policy is one thing but to blow it out of proportion and say it's a conspiracy isn't even worth the 1s and 0s required to put it online.
What people need to understand is that US foreign policy, however flawed it may be, is in place to effect the maximum amount of benefit to the US as it can. I know that sounds a bit elementary, but you'd be surprised at how many people would say, "How dare the US, the most powerful nation in the world, have a foreign policy that benefits itself!!! How dare they send billions and billions of dollars in aid every year and want something in return!!!" Think about that for a second.
I'm not happy with our foreign policy either, but I'm not so deluded as to think that the US does anything without already having a plan to get something back. Sometimes I don't think people really understand it's a country with citizens and a government; they think it's like some giant multinational conglomerate or something. It's a country with laws, citizens, and a military, and it's going to look after its own.
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Nyu Shin
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Posted - 2010.12.08 23:51:00 -
[166]
I'm not deluded too. Some things are happening, people are watching, thinking and doing things. Even with full containment strategy, lot damage is done already. The momentum has still not changed the direction.
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Astenion
Blame The Bunny Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2010.12.09 00:04:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Nyu Shin I'm not deluded too. Some things are happening, people are watching, thinking and doing things. Even with full containment strategy, lot damage is done already. The momentum has still not changed the direction.
All we can do is wait and see. Let's all be honest: these are very exciting times in which to live, for better or worse. The stories we will have as we get older and the types of experiences we'll be able to tell younger generations when we're old and decrepit will be the stuff of legend. Things are happening incredibly quickly, so much so that it's hard to keep up.
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Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.09 02:58:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Astenion Yes, you are missing something. Obviously you don't realize that everyone already collects on everyone. It's an unwritten rule in the intelligence world. In fact, one of the US's staunchest allies is the biggest collector of intel coming from the US, and not only does the US know about it, they only seek to minimize it, not even eradicate it. You see, when one person collects on another, that leaves a channel open for the ones doing the collecting. Think of it as a siphon: you can siphon liquid from one place but you can just as easily siphon it back. This is where "disinformation" comes from.
The difference is that it's in a controlled environment; think of it as "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". The reason Wikileaks is in such trouble is they are a rogue element, completely unpredictable and there's no way to track where the gathering intelligence is going.
So no, most definitely NOT double standards.
You missed my point. I was just saying that publically the US is accusing and condemning a lot of nations for doing exactly what they do themselves, just like a lot of other Western countries do for that matter.
Maybe Wikileaks is too blunt in how it achieves it's goals, but i see this whole situation as the start of giving the power back to the people. I for one didn't choose for people who'd keep me in the dark about virtually every decision they make - Governments are supposed to serve the citizens, not the other way around.
"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.12.09 03:07:00 -
[169]
This is an interesting take that I pretty much wonder about myself. My problem with the entire topic is it seems too "made to order" . From the actual "leaks" to Julian Assange himself, there is too much cliche, stereotype, and from those who call for his head, too much of exactly what anyone who is aware of things could expect. It's like a script, and the leaks themselves are lame.
In the case of Washington, when real world events become difficult to manage in PR terms, a diversion is essential. The old formula of staging fake terror plots, or even real terror bombs has reached its end with the public, so what is better than combing through the PentagonÆs back catalogue of PDF files and adding a few new files for good measure, then uploading them to an off-shore server? ItÆs cheap, fast and best all, itÆs easy to controlled. A junior officer could do the job. Amazingly, nowhere in any of these sinister cables appears any implications of criminal wrong doing by Herrs Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Obama or Blair. Nowhere is there any trace of implications or criticism of the USÆs number one ally and moral/material partner in the illegal Middle East occupations- Israel. One secret cable even numbered Iraqi civilian deaths since the invasion at a mere 66,000- in effect rewriting previous UN and independent estimates of 1.5 million deaths. Can we take this seriously? So we get 250,000 æsecretÆ files dumped and the prevailing Establishment remains firmly in tact with no real change in the status quo? Interesting.
This is why I don't jump on the Kill Julian bandwagon. It's also why I don't go thinking Wikileaks is saving the world either.
The charges on him are bogus and even people who want to see him hang are saying that.
The charges, at the least, actually made me a little happy. Not for what's happening to Assange. What is directly being done to him is obviously a vendetta by the US through its puppet states (which appear to be every country except Iran, China, and Venezuela at this point).
No I was a little glad - glad to see that debt and bad paper money are not the only thing to USA exports. We now also export prosecutorial misconduct as seen in exactly how Assange and the case against him is being handled. Those of you who don't live in the US, or who do but are brainless flouride-head sheeple, have no idea how prosecutors in the US work. They work pretty much like the Swedish prosecutors are doing it right now. Americans with oxygenated blood flowing into their brains fear their county prosecutors more than they fear terrorism.
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Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.09 04:07:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer This is an interesting take that I pretty much wonder about myself. My problem with the entire topic is it seems too "made to order" . From the actual "leaks" to Julian Assange himself, there is too much cliche, stereotype, and from those who call for his head, too much of exactly what anyone who is aware of things could expect. It's like a script, and the leaks themselves are lame.
Didn't know about the omissions from the cables - Interesting stuff. Makes you wonder what else isn't in there, and also whether Wikileaks is just a means to an end. Maybe the leaks are fake and are being used to round up anyone who was facilitating it, so it won't happen for real in the future?
"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.09 05:09:00 -
[171]
Hmm.... my thoughts about this all so far:
1) i think Australia's threat to cancel his passport is reprehensible and very immoral. As is any condemnation to the guy that parrots what others have said, even when they are not true (putting people at threat etc).
2) Wikileaks has but one purpose: To be the very pinnacle of unbiased, completely anonymous web site dedicated to publishing documents. Forward something to them, and they will up it, no questions asked.
It is my opinion that Julian is VERY unbiased when it comes to putting up doccos like these. There is no agenda, no mandate, and no goal. If they get it and the anonymous provider wants to have it put up, it will be put up. I think alot of people everywhere can't see just how much of an equalization Julian is.
Lastly, the internet is very pervasive. It does away with borders, pre-defined mediums and methods. All the information you could ever want is at your fingertips.
The US has shown time and time again just bad they are at keeping a lid on security and confidentiality. Two things are the cause of this: disgruntled members of staff, and bad security.
Before the US can even attempt to patch this up, they need to fix both of these issues.
TL;DR
The US has problems. Deal with it.
(and before u ask, i knew Julian irl)
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Ava Starfire
Minmatar Nordanverdr Modr
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Posted - 2010.12.09 05:17:00 -
[172]
Scary how statistics change simply because the US wants them to; UN estimates 1.5m civilian casualties in Iraq, but the US military "only" thinks it's 65000.
Either number is a sickening reminder of how far the world has not come. I understand that governments need to keep some secrets, I really do. But the fact that the death toll above, no matter where in that range it falls, is more than enough cause to closely scrutinize the governments of the nations involved, on all levels.
How many people have to be killed, for nothing, until it DOES become OK to start peeling away the secrecy surrounding those responsible? 65000 enough? 1.5 million? Or do we need to approach Holocaust-level death tolls?
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.12.09 06:03:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Headerman
(and before u ask, i knew Julian irl)
This helps.
I have a friend who was smeared royally in a 6 page article in the New York Times. Been telling people it's not what it seems for a long time.
But I do have questions about Julian. There is a lot of speculation. Yes it pays to know someone personally. I am more inclined to think he was trapped. Certainly by the weaponized vaginas in Sweden, but possibly by the government and George Soros too?
Also, when are people going to realize that one private in the Army is not going to get near so many classified documents?
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.12.09 06:52:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
This is why I don't jump on the Kill Julian bandwagon. It's also why I don't go thinking Wikileaks is saving the world either.
This may be the single most interesting post you've made so far Herzog. I'm proud of you. á
I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything. |
Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.12.09 06:58:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Headerman
It is my opinion that Julian is VERY unbiased when it comes to putting up doccos like these. There is no agenda, no mandate, and no goal.
Time to wake up!
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.12.09 07:07:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Headerman
It is my opinion that Julian is VERY unbiased when it comes to putting up doccos like these. There is no agenda, no mandate, and no goal.
Time to wake up!
Might want to take the rest of his post into account instead of making yourself look like a 'USA' chanting ******. á
I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything. |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.09 09:01:00 -
[177]
Edited by: baltec1 on 09/12/2010 09:08:38
Originally by: Astenion This is what I was trying to link Baltec.
Linkage
Everyone knows the Bush administration deserves every bit of derision it gets, but derision shouldn't be coming from any news source, and the BBC dished it out daily. Again, I watch the BBC but I am not blind to its political leanings and neither should you be.
Again thats not something I would base an arguement on. He goes on about how the beeb supported the kosovo war over the iraq war because a blue was in charge of the white house. He skips the fact that kosovo was the sight of a gonocide while the second iraq war was proven to be based upon lies at worst or bad intel at best before the war even started.
The BBC is not anti America, its just that America has a nasty habbit of doing some rather bad and stupid things. Like for example their reactions to wikileaks as very action they have made to combat the leaks has just made it worse for them.
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Betty Boom
Caldari SPECTRE Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.09 10:30:00 -
[178]
Originally by: baltec1 Again thats not something I would base an arguement on. He goes on about how the beeb supported the kosovo war over the iraq war because a blue was in charge of the white house. He skips the fact that kosovo was the sight of a gonocide while the second iraq war was proven to be based upon lies at worst or bad intel at best before the war even started.
sorry but - the plan with the genocide was made my the same ppl that created the plans for weapons of massdedruction. Both are fairy tales. It is the same story and it is only about to show power of the USA or why you think NATO trown cluster bombs on little towns 50 KM away from some kind of military. But you are off topic btw.
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Astenion
Blame The Bunny Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2010.12.09 11:55:00 -
[179]
Whether we agree or disagree with what's going on, the fact of the matter is Assange will never be found guilty in a court of law. Yes, we all know that Assange would love nothing more than to smear the US, as he's doing now, and to be honest the US probably deserves it, but to say he's unbiased is laughable. Wikileaks may be unbiased, but Assange is far from it.
The US would have to prove that Assange collaborated with the intel troop Manning in order to steal the information, which most probably isn't true unless they've got some intel we don't know about. If the cables really just fell into his lap, then he won't be prosecuted and will be protected under laws of freedom of the press/speech. It's still a threat to national security, but the US won't be able to convict him unless they can find something more substantial. There have been several court cases similar to this and they've all be acquitted.
This is why I say while I agree that Washington needs to be exposed, this wasn't the way to go about it. This will not only make Washington and other countries' governments that much more secretive, but I wouldn't be surprised to see freedom of speech rights erode even more. You won't "win" anything in the end, even if Assange goes free.
You're not going to get a gay person out of the closet by telling everyone behind his/her back that he/she is gay. That's only going to make that person resent you and never trust you again, even though you may have had only the best intentions and feel it was right for him/her.
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Nyu Shin
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Posted - 2010.12.09 11:56:00 -
[180]
Kremlin suggests WikiLeaks founder for Nobel Prize
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