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Rex Garvin
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Posted - 2010.12.07 11:43:00 -
[1]
I have a three account ice miner corporation. I mine Ice 1 hr each per day to pay the expenses. Ice used to be almost 130k but because of macro miners it has dropped to 72k. In one hour I can mine 115 ice. Thats 15 mil at old prices. Now its only 8.5 mil at todays prices. I have to mine twice as long just to make the same ISK. The same 3 account macro mining corporation can flood the ice market with over 1200 units of ice each day but only has to spend maybe 10 minutes at the keyboard. They dont care what the ice prices are because they dont have to spend hours at the keyboard ice mining. CCP has done nothing to stop macro ice miners. They need to change the ice mining process to stop macro ice miners.
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Br41n
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.12.07 11:50:00 -
[2]
For 1, learn to use your enter button and space out the text.
2, do not just complain but have a constructive Idea about how the mechanics should be changed.
3, searh and post in one of the gazillion mining revamp topics ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pinky: Gee, Brain. What are we going to do tonight?
Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Rex Garvin
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Posted - 2010.12.07 12:08:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Rex Garvin on 07/12/2010 12:09:39
Originally by: Br41n For 1, learn to use your enter button and space out the text.
2, do not just complain but have a constructive Idea about how the mechanics should be changed.
3, search and post in one of the gazillion mining revamp topics
I did search and did not find a gazillion mining revamp threads but if thier are that many nothing has been done about it.
It fairly easy to stop macro ice miners. At the end of every mining cycle a question window appears in a RANDOM location asking if the player wants to drop thier ore? If it does not get an answer by the completion the next cyle they lose thier ore. See its not very hard to do. So why has it not been done if over a bazzilon revamps have been asked for?
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sYnc Vir
Caldari Wolfsbrigade
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Posted - 2010.12.07 22:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Rex Garvin Edited by: Rex Garvin on 07/12/2010 12:09:39
Originally by: Br41n For 1, learn to use your enter button and space out the text.
2, do not just complain but have a constructive Idea about how the mechanics should be changed.
3, search and post in one of the gazillion mining revamp topics
I did search and did not find a gazillion mining revamp threads but if thier are that many nothing has been done about it.
It fairly easy to stop macro ice miners. At the end of every mining cycle a question window appears in a RANDOM location asking if the player wants to drop thier ore? If it does not get an answer by the completion the next cyle they lose thier ore. See its not very hard to do. So why has it not been done if over a bazzilon revamps have been asked for?
Because it would be quite annoying.
Unsupported.
Hmm
This sigs has been removed due to the gross **** it showed.
CCP
PS, Thank you for the link, omg.
CCP |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.07 23:01:00 -
[5]
Firstly, this isn't a proposal, this is just a rant with a "fix please" on the end. Secondly.. Originally by: Rex Garvin It fairly easy to stop macro ice miners. At the end of every mining cycle a question window appears in a RANDOM location asking if the player wants to drop thier ore? If it does not get an answer by the completion the next cyle they lose thier ore. See its not very hard to do. So why has it not been done if over a bazzilon revamps have been asked for?
Spoiler: Macro miners don't use the Eve client. The Eve client is very big, very pretty, and completely unnecessary when all you care about is efficiency. Macro miners use custom clients. Adding an annoyance to the Eve UI would do nothing to stop macro miners because macro miners don't use the Eve UI.
|24 Hour Plex|Mining Makeover| |
Wartrec
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Posted - 2010.12.08 10:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Firstly, this isn't a proposal, this is just a rant with a "fix please" on the end. Secondly.. Originally by: Rex Garvin It fairly easy to stop macro ice miners. At the end of every mining cycle a question window appears in a RANDOM location asking if the player wants to drop thier ore? If it does not get an answer by the completion the next cyle they lose thier ore. See its not very hard to do. So why has it not been done if over a bazzilon revamps have been asked for?
Spoiler: Macro miners don't use the Eve client. The Eve client is very big, very pretty, and completely unnecessary when all you care about is efficiency. Macro miners use custom clients. Adding an annoyance to the Eve UI would do nothing to stop macro miners because macro miners don't use the Eve UI.
Can you tell us all what they use?
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Wartrec
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Posted - 2010.12.08 10:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Firstly, this isn't a proposal, this is just a rant with a "fix please" on the end. Secondly.. Originally by: Rex Garvin It fairly easy to stop macro ice miners. At the end of every mining cycle a question window appears in a RANDOM location asking if the player wants to drop thier ore? If it does not get an answer by the completion the next cyle they lose thier ore. See its not very hard to do. So why has it not been done if over a bazzilon revamps have been asked for?
Spoiler: Macro miners don't use the Eve client. The Eve client is very big, very pretty, and completely unnecessary when all you care about is efficiency. Macro miners use custom clients. Adding an annoyance to the Eve UI would do nothing to stop macro miners because macro miners don't use the Eve UI.
Oh and by the way...I think your full of ****. Custom UI's dont work in EVE!
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Wartrec
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Posted - 2010.12.09 12:08:00 -
[8]
CSM do your job!!
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.12.10 03:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rex Garvin I have to mine twice as long just to make the same ISK.
There is your problem. You are mining ice for isk.
Ice is not mined for isk, it's mined to keep POS alive.
If you want to mine for isk choose ABC, veld, scord or something.
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2010.12.10 03:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Wartrec
Originally by: Black Dranzer Firstly, this isn't a proposal, this is just a rant with a "fix please" on the end. Secondly.. Originally by: Rex Garvin It fairly easy to stop macro ice miners. At the end of every mining cycle a question window appears in a RANDOM location asking if the player wants to drop thier ore? If it does not get an answer by the completion the next cyle they lose thier ore. See its not very hard to do. So why has it not been done if over a bazzilon revamps have been asked for?
Spoiler: Macro miners don't use the Eve client. The Eve client is very big, very pretty, and completely unnecessary when all you care about is efficiency. Macro miners use custom clients. Adding an annoyance to the Eve UI would do nothing to stop macro miners because macro miners don't use the Eve UI.
Oh and by the way...I think your full of ****. Custom UI's dont work in EVE!
They don't use a custom UI, they use a custom client. As in they took the standard one and reverse engineered it. Its similar to command prompt. Text only, issuing and receiving commands.
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Wartech2
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Posted - 2010.12.10 19:45:00 -
[11]
CCP stop macro users!!
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.10 20:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Wartrec Can you tell us all what they use?
Sure, since you asked.
What they use is a specialized client. Basically, when the Eve Online client communicates with the Eve Online server, it's just sending basic communication stuff. "Fly there", "mine that rock", "sell this item". The server sends the same stuff back. "You are here", "your capacitor is empty", "the pirate hits you for 1000 damage". Now the trick here is that the actual program that talks with the server (that is, the client) does not have to be the Eve client. In a way, another program can "pretend" to be the Eve client, but even that's sort of unintuitive; The client and server communicate in their own "language", but all that's important to the server is that the messages it's receiving from the "player" are in the right language; Not who or what is doing the speaking.
The "clients" macro miners use aren't graphical. If you saw it, you'd think it was accounting software or something equally mundane. For some, there isn't even that; It's just a command terminal which outputs text.
Your solution is somewhat tantamount to putting up a roadblock in order to keep helicopters from flying into a country.
|24 Hour Plex|Mining Makeover| |
Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2010.12.10 23:01:00 -
[13]
Actually there are sort of four levels of macros.
Timing macros. These use a basic keyboard automator to just repeat a set of commands over and over, timed out properly. The EVE client is unchanged, it just reacts to the commands form the automator. This is what many think of when they hear "macro user". Most proposals for changing the game to defeat macros are based on the assumption that this is the only type of macro you need to worry about.
Bots that read the screen. The EVE client is unchanged, but also running is a program that reads the screen, uses optical character recognition to find and read windows, and sends commands to the client. The more effort put into programming it, the more game uncertainty it can deal with.
Thin clients. This is a replacement of the client with a different program, and that program interprets what comes from the server, and sends information back.
The sweat shop. Very low wage people multi-boxing 12 hours a day. Not really a macro, but does support RMT. But such people could also be managing bots in real time, so if something were to happen that the bot does not understand (like a forced convo from CCP) the manager is alerted so he can deal with the issue.
We need to find ways of removing them all, and do it without harming the innocent.
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Dirk Swan
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Posted - 2010.12.11 07:47:00 -
[14]
We need to get rid of macro users!!!
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.11 10:07:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/12/2010 10:16:05
Originally by: Vincent Athena Actually there are sort of four levels of macros.
Timing macros. These use a basic keyboard automator to just repeat a set of commands over and over, timed out properly. The EVE client is unchanged, it just reacts to the commands form the automator. This is what many think of when they hear "macro user". Most proposals for changing the game to defeat macros are based on the assumption that this is the only type of macro you need to worry about.
Bots that read the screen. The EVE client is unchanged, but also running is a program that reads the screen, uses optical character recognition to find and read windows, and sends commands to the client. The more effort put into programming it, the more game uncertainty it can deal with.
Thin clients. This is a replacement of the client with a different program, and that program interprets what comes from the server, and sends information back.
The sweat shop. Very low wage people multi-boxing 12 hours a day. Not really a macro, but does support RMT. But such people could also be managing bots in real time, so if something were to happen that the bot does not understand (like a forced convo from CCP) the manager is alerted so he can deal with the issue.
We need to find ways of removing them all, and do it without harming the innocent.
you forgot the type (let's call it 5) that actually hooks into the official client.
Type 1 is available for free all over the web Type 2 are most mining bots some free, some one-time-fee, some subscription based Type 3 is not available (afaik) on the open market. A subscription based package of Type 5 has caused a lot stir-up recently (all that "OMG the botz - they can do combat missions")
Thin clients have the advantage of using much less system resources allowing people to run more bots on the same computer.
However, creating a "real" thin client is usually pretty hard work because the client-server communications should be encrypted - but the EVE server code was available on the web a few years ago (player intruded into CCP servers and stole it with the justification that the EVE product quality was too low/too many bugs, code ended up on piratebay) and if nothing too drastic has changed this might give reverse-engineering crews some good pointers.
What i can see happening much more likely are pseudo-thin clients which are regular clients with just the graphics output being deactivated, should result in a substantial decrease in resource usage and because you don't have to touch the whole client-server communications problem it should be much easier to implement.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.12.11 10:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cyaxares II However, creating a "real" thin client is usually pretty hard work because the client-server communications should be encrypted - but the EVE server code was available on the web a few years ago (player intruded into CCP servers and stole it with the justification that the EVE product quality was too low/too many bugs, code ended up on piratebay) and if nothing too drastic has changed this might give reverse-engineering crews some good pointers.
The code that was released back then was the Python behind the UI on the client side.
Monkeysphere and friends proved quite adequately that it is relatively easy to interfere with the EVE client/server communications.
It would not surprise me in the least to find that some folks have written their own "thin client" equivalent to what CCP are using in testing. I would expect such a thin client is fully scriptable.
In the end, the main difference between smart bots and players is that the bots can play 24x7, human players can't.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Saelie
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Posted - 2010.12.11 13:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Your solution is somewhat tantamount to putting up a roadblock in order to keep helicopters from flying into a country.
This could work, you see. First, you include a sensor in the roadblock to detect incoming helicopters. Then you have the roadblock hack into the helicopter's navigation systems and read the helicopter's point of takeoff. Then the roadblock sends a message to National Defense Command which launches dozens of nuclear ICBMs at the location from the helicopter's nav systems. THAT will put a stop to those pesky helicopters!
...Wait, what are we supposed to be talking about?
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Rat Mcgee
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Posted - 2010.12.12 07:30:00 -
[18]
Good idea!
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Dirk Smacker
Manifest Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:33:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Dirk Smacker on 12/12/2010 19:33:21 I recently started ice mining with my industry char. The level of macro-ing is incredible.
The only thing I can think of is if the hi sec ice fields move a few hundred km's a day to render the macro bookmarks useless. You could always redo your BM's, but that takes a bit of effort and over time all the macro'ers would congregate at the warp-in. People would start smartbombing those spots and maybe discourage macros.
Then again, I like cheap POS fuel.
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