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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:14:00 -
[1]
New players (and not-so-new players) are often told that they're "EFT Warriors", and that the fits they put together in Eve Fitting Tool (EFT) will perform nowhere near as good in actual play as their EFT numbers suggest.
In the interest of enlightening new players, what are the top 5 (or top 20) mistakes made by these EFT Warriors? What are the biggest differences between the theoretical numbers of EFT and the reality of actual play?
PS. I was a bit unsure whether to post this here or in Ships & Modules. Ultimately, the goal is to get a thread that'll help new players make better use of EFT and similar fitting aides, but I am also curious about the answers myself. Still, if the early replies are really good, this thread might win a sticky.
-- Salpad |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:41:00 -
[2]
things like: fitting items that aren't in game, (usually not such a big thing, as there is a replacement item) fit that goes on a unique ship (such as a raven state issue) most titan/super carrier fits (although these have been better lately) fitting super expensive ships, ex look at my cn invlun rifter, or a fully officer fit golem.
to most players that is eft warrioring, there are however a few players that can get away with it, mostly because they have the ship and the billions of isk to fit it, and have a reason to fly it.
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gfldex
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Posted - 2010.12.15 22:31:00 -
[3]
To assume that the dps shown will be seen on the battle field. EFT can't and wont tell the effect of the targets sig radius.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.15 22:45:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Akita T on 15/12/2010 22:47:08
Originally by: gfldex EFT can't and wont tell the effect of the targets sig radius.
Actually, you're wrong here. EFT can and will tell you almost the exact effect relative transversal and target sig radius has on your DPS - just open up two separate fits, then hit CTRL-D (or file->new DPS graph). However, last time I checked the numbers precisely, it was a little too lenient for turrets - it used to assume chance of hit does not affect hit quality, but it does. Also, it used to use full damage for missiles... or was it the old missile damage formula ? Oh well. I guess it depends on what version of EFT you have and what they fixed extra.
Of course, very few people know about the "DPS graph" feature in the first place _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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tagen young
Caldari The Night Witch
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Posted - 2010.12.15 23:20:00 -
[5]
My list would be.
1. Very expensive modules that are not normally in keeping with the hull. 2. Looking purely at DPS and not how well you can apply that damage. 3. People posting untested fits as if they have been flying them for years. 4. Treating EFT as gospel and not as a guide to be tweaked as you gain experience in a ship. 5. Not be careful with fitting requirements. Fits requiring very high fitting skills should be stated.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.12.16 00:07:00 -
[6]
All the stuff above plus using "all level V" without actually having all relevant skills at level V....
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Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.16 01:05:00 -
[7]
The term is also usually applied during sessions of theorycrafting; people who set up fits in EFT have a tendency to boast and brag about how well their fits (would) perform, but they're not going to go and spend the billions required to actually put the ship together and actually fly it.
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Baneken
Gallente School of the Unseen
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Posted - 2010.12.16 05:16:00 -
[8]
Leaving "include reload time in DPS" out of the equation and then insisting that a kronos does significantly more DPS then my Domi with equally cheap fittings on both ships ...
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.12.16 07:18:00 -
[9]
I'd say the major ones are dps, both failing to account for falloff and over-accounting with drones on sniper boats. The dps graph does show a (somewhat) more realistic dps graph, however not many players are accustomed to pulling it up.
The next bit that doesn't quite show on EFT is the effective dps vs a shield/armor resist hole or any resist configuration. It can mean between winning and losing for missile/projectile boats. Hopefully on the wishlist for EFT is the ability to show dps graph that accounts for defender's resist configuration.
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Obedient Slavegirl
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Posted - 2010.12.16 10:48:00 -
[10]
Dont use EFT. Problem solved.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 16/12/2010 11:22:32 Assuming that EHP means anything.
(edit: without being used in conjunction with speed and sig radius) -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Eastman Color
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:38:00 -
[12]
"Cap Stable": assuming that you need to have as close to 100% cap as possible with all the mods on.
Peak recharge is 33% You won't ever be constantly running you guns as you'll need to switch targets and even that moment of switching targets effects recharge.
Pulse your ab/mwd, same goes for reppers
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Mal Lokrano
Gallente The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.16 23:08:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Obedient Slavegirl Dont use EFT. Problem solved.
Why not? If you do account for the inherent disadvantages in EFT, it still can be useful for testing to see if a fit can be used with your skills. You can use it to play with how certain skills would affect your current fit setup. Naturally you have to take everything with a grain of salt, but to completely discount it altogether misses a very useful tool.
You just have to know its limitations. _____ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two.
Your friendly neighborhood pod liberator. |
Xtops
Minmatar Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.12.16 23:18:00 -
[14]
Making PvP fits under the assumption that all battles are 1v1
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Marcus Grim
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Posted - 2010.12.17 06:30:00 -
[15]
Trying to do too much with one ship. Example: This is my laser, neuting, webbing, disrupting, jamming, scramming, armor repping fit. Maybe slightly exagerated, but not much.
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Tarasina
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Posted - 2010.12.17 13:35:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tarasina on 17/12/2010 13:35:29
Originally by: Mal Lokrano
Originally by: Obedient Slavegirl Dont use EFT. Problem solved.
Why not? If you do account for the inherent disadvantages in EFT, it still can be useful for testing to see if a fit can be used with your skills. You can use it to play with how certain skills would affect your current fit setup. Naturally you have to take everything with a grain of salt, but to completely discount it altogether misses a very useful tool.
You just have to know its limitations.
I just wanted to add this.
It is cheaper to fit a ship in EFT than going to market in Eve and buying everything, only to realize you ran out of Powergrid.
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Obedient Slavegirl
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Posted - 2010.12.18 16:09:00 -
[17]
1) Everything* bought and used can be sold, some times even with a profit.
2) Fitting ships straight in EVE is faster than trying first in EFT and it is also dead accurate, especially when u r dealing with capacitor issues and even that 1% counts.
3) Most important, fitting ships straight in EVE makes u read what each module does, what each module needs, what each module uses. Reading the "description", "attributes" and "fitting" tabs, using "compare" option... all these necessary steps help you LEARN THE GAME BETTER. * rigs are an exception, but, by simply dragging the pointer over them while having the fitting window open, u can see the effect of the first rig u want to fit. For the second and third rig, use EVE calculator. EVE by itself has all the info and tools you need.
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Niklas
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Posted - 2010.12.18 16:55:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Niklas on 18/12/2010 17:02:43
Originally by: Sturmwolke Edited by: Sturmwolke on 16/12/2010 07:36:32The next bit that doesn't quite show on EFT is the effective dps vs a shield/armor resist hole or any resist configuration. It can mean between winning and losing for missile/projectile boats. Hopefully on the wishlist for EFT is the ability to show dps graph that accounts for defender's resist configuration.
Set up your ship, set up your target ship with all the expected resists. Open the dps graph, put the attacker/target in as appropriate. Little box that says options.. right click and select something besides not used. Weighted average, biggest buffer, or highest defense.
EFT won't account for tactics, or how to fly the ship, or the chaos of a battlefield. It does tell you how your ship will perform in specific circumstances. No more, no less.
Thats why its called the Eve Fitting Tool, instead of the Eve Total Solution For Everything. Handy, IMO almost indispensable(frankly it should be ported into the game), but still just a tool.
Imo the biggest mistake people make with EFT is they try to design a ship in it. This is a mistake, and is backwards. You should have an idea of what you want to do already, and generally how to fit it. EFT is outstanding for helping you figure out how to best implement that goal onto a ship, and serves as a quick reality check to make sure it does what you intend without oversights like a gaping resist hole, or too low tracking, or your guns outranging your targeting range. Its no replacement for actual testing, but it is great for getting ready for that.
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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.12.18 18:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Obedient Slavegirl 3) Most important, fitting ships straight in EVE makes u read what each module does, what each module needs, what each module uses. Reading the "description", "attributes" and "fitting" tabs, using "compare" option... all these necessary steps help you LEARN THE GAME BETTER.
I've also found it to be a major hassle to get EFT to keep track of my character's implants. Maybe that's just me, but often they matter a lot, e.g. the +3% CPU one.
One can add them manually, but why can't they be imported via the API key? That would be a lot easier.
-- Salpad |
Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.12.18 18:17:00 -
[20]
Okay, there's been some good replies in this thread, but it is worth a sticky request? What's the consensus, from the perspective of helping new players?
(If the consensus is that it is worth a sticky request, how do I request a sticky? I've never tried this sort of thing before.)
-- Salpad |
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Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.18 19:31:00 -
[21]
How effective your paper DPS actually is in a fight. For example a Zealot fit to have a 50km optimal range with Scorch at 500 DPS will most likely do more actual damage in a fight than a Shield gank fit brutix with over 1000 DPS with 5km optimal range in a gang vs gang situation.
Damage projection vs raw numbers is an important factor with fits.
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Mal Lokrano
Gallente The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.19 12:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Obedient Slavegirl 1) Everything* bought and used can be sold, some times even with a profit.
2) Fitting ships straight in EVE is faster than trying first in EFT and it is also dead accurate, especially when u r dealing with capacitor issues and even that 1% counts.
3) Most important, fitting ships straight in EVE makes u read what each module does, what each module needs, what each module uses. Reading the "description", "attributes" and "fitting" tabs, using "compare" option... all these necessary steps help you LEARN THE GAME BETTER. * rigs are an exception, but, by simply dragging the pointer over them while having the fitting window open, u can see the effect of the first rig u want to fit. For the second and third rig, use EVE calculator. EVE by itself has all the info and tools you need.
All valid points.
However, to use the ingame fitting window requires you to have to buy the fit with almost no clue on if it will fit (or at least have most of the fit installed, to get a clue). You will learn from the experience, no doubt. For new players with limited capital, that could be a hard lesson. Sure they can sell modules back, and if they are shrewd make a profit. It is a greater convenience to "look" at the fit on EFT beforehand, and then buying modules afterward. EFT is not perfect, but the ingame window is not much easier to use so both solutions are not fool proof.
In the end it is really all down to personal preference, some will prefer the ingame fitting screen, others will like EFT. It is really up to the new player to decide. _____ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two.
Your friendly neighborhood pod liberator. |
Avo Daith
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.12.19 17:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Salpad Okay, there's been some good replies in this thread, but it is worth a sticky request? What's the consensus, from the perspective of helping new players?
(If the consensus is that it is worth a sticky request, how do I request a sticky? I've never tried this sort of thing before.)
Stickies are exceptional. Some threads have thousands of views and hundreds of comments and regularly are bumped and referenced and still aren't stickied. Th info here, useful though it may be, doesn't stand a chance.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Salpad Okay, there's been some good replies in this thread, but it is worth a sticky request?
Why sticky in the forums when you could start a new page in the EVElopedia and link it to the guides for new players?
IMHO, forum stickies are a very heavy hammer and should only be used for exceptional circumstances. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
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