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Karudo
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:08:00 -
[1]
Hi,
Well, i've been reading through loads of "ferrox threads" and all suggest to actively shield tank. However, since i've been planning to use railguns on my ferrox i've been wondering if a different sort of setup would be better. Also, I've been playing eve only for a month --> I might miss some important aspect here.
The setup would be needed for lvl 3 mission and 4/10 complexes.
High: combination of named railguns + heavy missile launchers (4/3 or 5/2 depending on powergrid/cpu needs)
Med: 2 active shield hardeners (depending on opponents) 1 T2 large shield extender 1 10mn AB 1 Tracking Comp. (or another passive hardener e.g. kinetic)
Low: 1 T2 Medium Armor repairer 1 Power diagnostics 1 kinetic hardener (or a second PDU) 1 Damage mod (for the railguns)
Now, the strategy would be to first activate the shield hardeners and leave them on. then if the shield would go down activate kinetic hardener + armor repairer until the masses of rats are less in numbers and shield builds up again.
So, the idea is to use the asymmetric shield recharge, which is higher the lower the shields are, combined with the the high resistances to do the main part of the tanking.
I'm pretty sure that this setup would be working in 90% of the cases. But I want it to work 100% ! So, what do you think? A viable build or has this done before and just ended in disaster??
Thanks for any comments and opinions!
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Elixier
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:16:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Elixier on 16/01/2005 10:17:16 Edited by: Elixier on 16/01/2005 10:16:36 I use a Ferox for lvl3 missions. I tank it with a Large shield booster II and 2 activated harners + a shield boost amp.
I have 3 cap relays in the lows and a power diag. When i use to use a med shield booster II + 2 hardners sometimes the npc could break my tank, and i have to say the Ferox's armor doesn't last very long atall
*Edited spelling.
Elixier's Kills |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:20:00 -
[3]
I would be tempted to try a full passive shield setup the ships well suited for it. Or perhaps a mix between passive and active shield setup. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Seth Killbain
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:21:00 -
[4]
Karudo, the main and good reason for active tanking the shields instead is the fact that you have more med slots, and your actual resistances favour shields. With this in mind it is far easier to restore and maintain your shield. The resistances are designed for shield tanking. If you mail me in game ill send you the tank setup im running. Good luck tho as playing with setups can be entertaining.
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Elixier
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:22:00 -
[5]
Hehe Pottsey, you mention passive shield tanking everywhere. I'l have to try it.
Elixier's Kills |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:28:00 -
[6]
"1 kinetic hardener (or a second PDU)" Go for teh PDU unless caps not a problem then try a Shield power relay for a mix betweewn active and passive shields. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:38:00 -
[7]
Stick to one type of tanking on a ship, pick either shield or armor, don't try to do both.
I have never sat down and seriously tried to do any passive shield tanking...but to the best of my knowledge acive shield tanking has always been better.
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Karudo
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:54:00 -
[8]
@ elixier: imho if you use 3 cap relays + 1 PDU the effectiveness of your nice shield booster is not the best. So, i wouldn't really go for that...
@Pottsey: yep, a full passive shield tank would be an option. It's not too different to my setup anyway. just would have to remove those armor related items.. but hey, nothing new there.
And ta for the advice on the PDU :)
@Seth
Well, i do realize that it is in theory more effective to actively tank shields. But the whole idea of the setup is that the higher recharge rate of the shields + the higher "range" ie... the basic passive shield tank setup is reducing any damage that would go through to the armor. As the shield recharges highest when it's almost down. + armor repairers repair more in plain quantity then shield boosters.
med armor rep T2: engery 160, repaired HP 320 , duration 12s med shield booster T2: energy 60, repaired HP 90, duration 3s (for 12 s it is: 240 energy and repaired 360 hp)
Meaning that I was wrong about that ... lol just see that the shield booster repairs 40 hp more in the 12 secs. still the armor repairer takes less energy.
doh...i'm confused now.
guess i will just have to risk my neck and try it out ;)
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Elixier
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Posted - 2005.01.16 11:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Karudo @ elixier: imho if you use 3 cap relays + 1 PDU the effectiveness of your nice shield booster is not the best. So, i wouldn't really go for that...
That is what the shield boost amp is for, it counters the debuff from the cap relays. If you don't use the cap relays your tank won't last long.
Elixier's Kills |
Elixier
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Posted - 2005.01.16 11:11:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Elixier on 16/01/2005 11:10:56 p.s BTW - with the 3 cap relays and power diag. your recharge is reduced by over 200 seconds.
Elixier's Kills |
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Karudo
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Posted - 2005.01.16 11:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Elixier
That is what the shield boost amp is for, it counters the debuff from the cap relays. If you don't use the cap relays your tank won't last long.
hm, right. Just seems a bit of a waste of slots to counter other modules effects. BUT if it works it works. and that's fine with me then
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Larno
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Posted - 2005.01.16 11:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Elixier
Originally by: Karudo @ elixier: imho if you use 3 cap relays + 1 PDU the effectiveness of your nice shield booster is not the best. So, i wouldn't really go for that...
That is what the shield boost amp is for, it counters the debuff from the cap relays. If you don't use the cap relays your tank won't last long.
Use power diagnostic units, preferably tech II.
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Mon Maures
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Posted - 2005.01.16 12:12:00 -
[13]
The active tank is king. One size fits all Lvl3 kill missions.
Use 2 active hardeners for the Rats u will encounter + T2 shield booster & shield boost amplifiyer + 10mn AB to finish the mids.(note only boost when shield reaches 50% or under, and only boost a couple of times - eyes on the capacitor levels at all times)
Lo slots should be PDU II's if u can as these give a buff to cap recharge and powergrid. Damage mod should be ballistic control and 4th lo slot for whatever u need to make the whole setup work(PDU,CPU,RCU or Cap charger).
The highs should be 5 named heavy missile (limos or Arbelast are best) and 2 x 250mm or 2 x 200mm rails to finish off.
This setup will last indefinitely against all lvl3 mission rats. However skills are a factor in how well the tank works (Engineering lvl5 + Energy ops lvl5 + shield skills lvl4&5 help alot)
Do not even bother with armour mods - total waste of slots on a shield tank which is what u really want in the Ferox. Hope this helps The fortunes of war, i'll tell you plain, is a wooden leg or a golden chain. |
Karudo
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Posted - 2005.01.16 12:42:00 -
[14]
First of all thanks for the tips and replies.
There are a few things i'm still not too happy about. To explain I'd like to tell a little story.
*lights a cigarette and takes a sip of coffee*
There was a time when I used to actively shield tank with all my Caldari ships (only cruisers + frigs so far...;) till i went to a DED 4/10 with my nicely fitted Moa (T2 and named stuff). There i got greeted by them nice npc rats. 6 cruiser and 10 frigs. Those were the evil Gurista pilots. I'm sure you know 'em! I was in my pretty egg before i get over the fact that they are all targeting me all at once... Now, since then I've been jumping back into a Blackbird. It is fitted with 2 active hardeners, t2 shield extender, T2 shield booster,and an AB. This results in a sound 2,5k shield. I only once had to use the T2 shield booster doing while doing lvl2 missions.. pretty much only a backup. *puts out the cigarette*
So, to keep it sorta short. I prefer a shield extender over an shield booster amplifier any day when doing dead space missions and complexes.
The basic idea of the build however was a to use a basic passive shield tank setup and throw in an armor repairer for tough situations or when fighting BS spawns.
The funny thing is that the only real response i got is simply not to do it. But why?? Maybe this was already discussed years ago during beta, but i don't see that it is THAT obvious.
Anyhow, I will try the build out and then maybe revive the topic.
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.01.16 12:48:00 -
[15]
One of the reasons you don¦t want to mix your shield and armor tanking is that you only tank one at time. So you are only using half your slots at any given time.
You say you want to use the armor for tough situations but mixing the tankings only get you in those tough situations sooner. Well those are my views on it anyway. __________ Capacitor research |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.01.16 12:52:00 -
[16]
Well if you take out the armour repairer you can make the passive tank even tougher. Eveytime I mixed passive and active setups I found I got less hitpoints per second then using pure active or pure passive. Perhaps you found a combination that works.
How many hit points do you get with a pure passive setup and how many do you get with 1 armour repairer and how long can you runt he armour repairer for?
_________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Karudo
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Posted - 2005.01.16 12:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dust Puppy One of the reasons you don¦t want to mix your shield and armor tanking is that you only tank one at time. So you are only using half your slots at any given time.
You say you want to use the armor for tough situations but mixing the tankings only get you in those tough situations sooner. Well those are my views on it anyway.
Yep, I get the point. Maybe i'm way off, but doesn't the shield continue recharging even if it is hitting the "0 mark" every other second?
e.g. 80 damage taken per second. 40 shield hp recharged . rest of the damage is dealt to the armor but repaired... the numbers are of course fictional ;)
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Karudo
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Posted - 2005.01.16 13:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Pottsey
How many hit points do you get with a pure passive setup and how many do you get with 1 armour repairer and how long can you runt he armour repairer for?
he, now that's pretty much the reason for me posting here. :) Since i'm just about to get my ferrox i couldn't try all this out yet. I only scaled it up from my experience with the blackbird. And the blackbird was lacking low slots, so in a ferrox which has better shields/res to start with it can only be more viable. In any case, I found that with my 1 x pdu only euquiped and my shield skills at lvl4 i got a recharge of 7-8 hp /s once the shield reached 75% or below. I never tried out the recharge rate in the 25% or less quarter, but it surely will be higher...
how long the armor repairer can run? dunno, but with 2 T2 PDU's it should be okey for a while. will have to try it out. Maybe scraping the weapon tracking/ damage mods would be necessary. who knows :)
Shield hitpoints would be around 5k. (3900 with extender + 30% from skills and pdu)
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.01.16 13:12:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Pottsey on 16/01/2005 13:13:38 Edited by: Pottsey on 16/01/2005 13:12:49 When shields get below 10% the shield recharge rates drops down massively. You need to keep them at above 20% to make the recarge usefull.
Whats your shield cap and shield recarge? with and without the amour repair. With a PDU and then swap to a Shield relay. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Karudo
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Posted - 2005.01.16 13:23:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Karudo on 16/01/2005 13:33:15
Originally by: Pottsey
When shields get below 10% the shield recharge rates drops down massively. You need to keep them at above 20% to make the recarge usefull.
Dang... i knew there must have been something that this wouldn't work. Otherwise some other ppl would have had the idea already :)
So, basically with this 10% rule existing my setup is crap.
... always learning.
I think i'll just go for passive shield tanking all out then.
p.s. don't know about the exact recharge rates yet as i'm not in my ferrox yet.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.01.16 15:20:00 -
[21]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 16/01/2005 15:31:59
I'm always interested in these passive tank threads... ever since I fitted out my Hawk with a passive tank I've been smitten. The naturally high resistances of the Hawk make for some great passive tanking. The Ferox has shield resistance bonuses plus a good deal of mid slots, so it seems a pretty good canidate. I've been wondering what to do with my Ferox recently, perhaps I'll give this a shot.
One thing I'm always confused about is whether I should add active hardners or not. Adding an active hardner gives better resistances, but means I can fit less rechargers or extenders, reducing the passive recharge rate. On a similar note, I hate to see my cap go totally to waste so I often try to fit a shield booster into my passive setup just to assist the passive tank (and use up some of that available cap) should the tank start to weaken. Again, same issue arises here, in taking up this mid slot I've lowered the efficiency of the passive tank. But is it worth it? I'll have to do some testing. Looks like my Ferox is getting another fittings overhaul.
Edit-holy crap... just discovered something... if you look at the BASE shield recharge rate of the Ferox (2500 Shield / 1000 second recharge) = 2.5 shield per second... which is higher than the Scorpions 2.125 or the Raven's 2.4! The Ferox Battlecruiser regenerates its shields faster than either of the Caldari Battleships. This, combined with its shield resistance bonuses, looks to make it into a VERY nice passive tanker. I only hope it has the fittings to take advantage of this. Going to go test it right now!
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Bagdh Dearg
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Posted - 2005.01.16 16:45:00 -
[22]
Hmm this is interesting as I was just thinking about what to stick on the Tank the Ferox.Is a Large T2 shield extender fitable? without loseing other important Mods? _______________________________________________ An tÚ nach bhfuil lßidir nÝ folßir d¾ bheith glic -He who is not strong must be crafty |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.01.16 17:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bagdh Dearg Hmm this is interesting as I was just thinking about what to stick on the Tank the Ferox.Is a Large T2 shield extender fitable? without loseing other important Mods?
That's what I fit. Testing another setup right now but so far it's worked pretty well using a large shield booster. I can't run it forever so I've got to monitor my cap pretty well but it repairs over 300hp each boost with a shield boost amplifier. __________ Capacitor research |
Liam Fremen
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Posted - 2005.01.16 18:56:00 -
[24]
Well... my ferox is fitted in a bit different way...
hi: 5x heavy launcher 2x med nosfe
med: 1x cl5 med booster 3x active hardeners kin/em/ther 1x 10mn ab's tech2
low: 4 balistic control
This fitting make lvl3 mission damn fast... ur base 2700+ shield is at least for absorbing the damage off all the open space mission except mordus, where u need a bit of boosting.....
The booster is only used for "recharge" shield when u have like 40%.. nothing else, and 4 balistic bring ur fire rate under 10 sec and 200dmg x heavy missle on hull...
this is the best one i found...
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Kurron
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Posted - 2005.01.16 21:31:00 -
[25]
I've found that the Ferox is the first ship where the shield recharge actually helps your tanking to a significant degree without fitting for it specifically.
I mount: 4x 250mm Railguns 3x Heavy Missle Launchers
1x Large Shield Booster II 1x 10mn AB II 3x Hardener (usually EM, Thermal, Kinetic as I'm too lazy to swap them)
4x PDU II for the recharge and shield regen boost.
I find that my natural shield regen means that I only have to hit the booster once in a while.
--------------------------------------------- Deep Space Hauling Inc. When it absolutely, positively, is too boring for you to haul. We move it all! |
Karudo
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Posted - 2005.01.17 02:39:00 -
[26]
Electrofreak, would be cool if you could post how it goes :)
*off-topic* oh and if you get around to do so, maybe you could tell me some nice electro dj's to check out something like david carretta, playgroup, tiga, tok-tok...
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Cusi Huaman
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Posted - 2005.01.17 11:03:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Cusi Huaman on 17/01/2005 11:04:47
Originally by: Kurron
1x Large Shield Booster II 1x 10mn AB II 3x Hardener (usually EM, Thermal, Kinetic as I'm too lazy to swap them)
4x PDU II for the recharge and shield regen boost.
I find that my natural shield regen means that I only have to hit the booster once in a while.
Thats one of two probable setups I've planned to try once my ferox is ready - nice to know it works. The other one will use a shield amp instead of AB, which will make the ship more survivable, but slower.
... I want dessert - where is my Overlord?
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Cracken
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Posted - 2005.01.17 12:52:00 -
[28]
Meet mr. nosferatu he's a shield tankers best friend.
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Colthor
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Posted - 2005.01.17 13:06:00 -
[29]
I've not tried passive tanking a Ferox yet (I didn't get very good results from my Raven - ~50HP/sec - but don't have tech2 shield relays) but my active tank setup held up against an Apocalypse for several minutes until the cap ran out:
Highs: 5 Heavy Missile Launchers, 2 250mm Rails Meds: Large Shieldbooster 2, 2x Hardeners (em/thermal usually), Shield Boost Amp, Large Shield Extender 2 Lows: 2x PDS, 2xCPU1
This setup has over 4800 shield HP, but is pretty slow. When I've got Electronics 5 I'll be able to fit three PDSs and one CPU2 in the lowslots, which'll help the capacitor a bit.
If you want five railguns maybe you could put a MWD and targeting/range mods in the medslots, use Iron ammo and sit 70-80km away to snipe them? This setup's on my list to try once I can use all the toys :) -- OTO are selling Impel and Bustard transport ships. Contact Tsavong Lah or Lacero Callrisian for details. Like mining, hauling or building? Join OTO! |
Cusi Huaman
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Posted - 2005.01.17 13:19:00 -
[30]
I'd try and ditch that extender, you might install an ab or a caprecharger II instead.
I'd prefer either caprecharge or speed, but the bonus you get thru the expander should be neglectable.
I might even prefer a third hardner. Same's I have my Raven set up, all mids for hardening and boosting. Mods should of course all be either named or tII to geat peak performance.
... I want dessert - where is my Overlord?
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