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Fearless M0F0
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.12.19 21:12:00 -
[1]
I just got a Tengu for my mission alt, I can't believe I can clear a LVL 4 faster with it than with a Battleship or Marauder . And he still hasn't maxed out subsystems
This got me thinking: Are battleship good for anything anymore?. With all these sexy new cruiser hulls the gap between them and the battleship has shrunk so I tossed some stats in a spreadsheet and got the following:
- Cruisers are about 10 times bigger than frigates but only have 3 times the base HP
- Battlecruisers are about twice as big as cruisers and have about 3 times the base HP
- Strategic cruisers fall in between cruisers and battlecruisers in term of base HP and mass/volume
- Battleships are 10 times as big as a cruiser (mass, volume) but only have between 6 times (t1 cruiser) to 3 times (strategic cruiser) times the base HP
I'm not saying 10 times the size should have 10 times the benefit but I think Battleship stats should be revisited.
My proposal: Increase all battleship stats by 10% on SiSi and see what happens. This includes base HP, CPU, Powergrid, speed and agility penalties. Do the same for all battleship modules (large turret, bays, ammo and modules). By all I mean all of them, including NPC.
The idea is that a BS vs BS match stays the same but we widen the gap between BS and smaller hulls a bit.
BTW: carriers have about 11 times the mass of battleships and 15 times more base HP
-- I take offense on people feeling offended by me |
Professor Bunsen
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Posted - 2010.12.19 21:39:00 -
[2]
BS's still can still pack more dps and have more EHP than T3s, but if you're comparing t1 and t2 to t3, yeah the difference isn't that great; T3s also cost significantly more, so a more fair comparison would be with faction BSs, and they are significantly better.
Also, mass / volume isn't a great indicator of "size" compared to signature radius. The only time mass matters is wormholes, which is what T3s are all about.
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Ambaseter Doggy
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:11:00 -
[3]
My machariel would like to have a word with you Agent texas is a bit of a badass |
King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:18:00 -
[4]
The forums are littered with boost BS threads but as a predominately heavy pilot (BC/BS/cap) I find them just fine. A few could use some work (ie the hyperion) but most serve their roles well. The real problem we face is SC spam. SC's are currently terribly unbalanced with everything else in eve and have replaced virtually everything except tacklers. Given BS's lack of ability to bail at the sight of them, they are less popular now. But as said, that's an SC problem, not a BS problem. Once SC's get a good whack with the nerf bat, I think eve's heavier non-SC ships will come out to play more often.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Kahega Amielden
T.R.I.A.D
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:33:00 -
[5]
Just theorycrafting here but...I'm starting to think the problem is actually battlecruisers. You get gank/tank almost comparable to BS, with almost cruiser-level agility. You don't see BS flown much anymore, but you also don't see t1 cruisers flown much, either. In fact, the only t2 cruisers that see use are ones that can be nanoed and really benefit from speed and agility.
And as an extra bonus, you don't have any problems tracking frigates/cruisers like you do in a BS.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.19 23:46:00 -
[6]
From personal experience as battleship and t3 pilot, I can say that in a fight between t3 and battleship, all that matters is the kind of mods equipped. Certain setups beat other setups. The side and supposed damage superiority of a battleship doesn't matter at all. Not 1 bit.
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Zanzbar
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Posted - 2010.12.19 23:48:00 -
[7]
if your marauder is a less efficient mission runner then a t3 then your fitting it wrong
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Fearless M0F0
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.12.21 03:14:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Just theorycrafting here but...I'm starting to think the problem is actually battlecruisers.
Don't think so, at least in missions: Myrm and Drake can easily tank LVL 4 but they barely pack enough dps to finish them, meanwhile a Tengu will just cut through NPC battleships like butter, even the ones with high kinetic resists
I'm not saying to insanely boost battleships, just a little bit (5% to 10%) and see what happens. -- I take offense on people feeling offended by me |
Fearless M0F0
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.12.21 03:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: King Rothgar The forums are littered with boost BS threads but as a predominately heavy pilot (BC/BS/cap) I find them just fine. A few could use some work (ie the hyperion) but most serve their roles well. The real problem we face is SC spam. SC's are currently terribly unbalanced with everything else in eve and have replaced virtually everything except tacklers. Given BS's lack of ability to bail at the sight of them, they are less popular now. But as said, that's an SC problem, not a BS problem. Once SC's get a good whack with the nerf bat, I think eve's heavier non-SC ships will come out to play more often.
I agree SC are way overpowered, even to battleships but I don't like nerfs. It's fine for a SC being top dog amomg the cruiser/battlecruiser class, but look at the live event killmails for carriers: in almost all cases a SC is top damage dealer with the closest BS only putting half its damage
-- I take offense on people feeling offended by me |
Amorphisis
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Posted - 2010.12.21 03:38:00 -
[10]
what is sc?
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Fearless M0F0
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.12.21 03:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Amorphisis what is sc?
Strategic Cruiser -- I take offense on people feeling offended by me |
Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.12.21 07:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Fearless M0F0
Originally by: Amorphisis what is sc?
Strategic Cruiser
thinkings he means super carrier...its the ship that has basically made bs semi useless atm. Full t3 fleets are rare as hell, usually its just onesies and twosies (and usually very brave commanders/boosters hiding somewhere...t3 command subbed if found equals a short life span once found lol).
SC's jump themselves...means less logisitics work to move 80 BS's around (titan's not always on, and I have wagon trained 20 jumps one way in a bs....slow and painful some words for it...then you have 20 jumps back hom).
Even just 10 SC's launching thier fb's is insane dps. Insane dps that doesn't require rest stops back at home for ammo (unlike a bs fleet which runs dry after few large pos or are down to the non structure bash ammo and using pvp ammo meant for ships).
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.12.21 07:58:00 -
[13]
lol, love what you did there unintentionally.
Strategic Cruisers are, in my book, pretty much fine. If focussed, they're better then T2 ships, but for 5x the price. If unfocussed, they can fit pretty much any role, but aren't as good as their T2 counterparts.
SuperCarriers are overpowered. While I'm ok with them being strong (They're not SuperCaps for nothing) right now there just isn't any viable alternative against them cause if it's pretty much stationary and you throw in a bunch of fighter-bombers, it's dead. If it's a tad more movable and you throw in fighters, it's dead.
In the rock-paper-shotgun approach, we should see something like:
Carriers (Fighters) beat SubCaps. Dreads (Guns/Siege) beat POSses/SuperCaps SuperCarriers (FB) beat Caps Titans (Doomsday) beat Caps
So you hotdrop a fleet? Use carriers. You want to kill a tower? Use Dreads. You want to kill a mothership? Use Dreads. You want to kill dreads? Use a mothership.
If you use a mothership on a subcap fleet, velocity should render fighterbombers useless. In my book, motherships shouldn't be able to use fighters. If you use a mothership on a tower, it shouldn't be very effective. Dreads should get a huge boost against stationary objects.
Anyway, I'm digressing.
back to post 1. You should realise that you're comparing a T1 battleship, which is pretty much free considering insurance, with a T3 cruiser, which is expensive to begin with and can't be insured either.
So battleships are for cheap PvP or PvE, while T3 cruisers are for rich PvPers and rich mission runners. ---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ And the Eve Character Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/assembler/
Also a spy. |
Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.12.21 08:29:00 -
[14]
This probably isn't possible with the way things are now, and some will not like the idea due to the old rock, paper and scissors mind set. But here goes anyway ... BS need point defense against smaller ships. A second "row" of high slots, three or four, that can only fit cruiser sized weapons and below, the grid and CPU and cap to support them..
Yeah yeah I know, solopwn mobile arguments and all that, it's a game blah blah, spare me. Still, it's a freaking Battleship. Right now it's the lol-mobile. They can hardly move fast enough to get under the guns of the uppers, and any brick with legs can get under them.
Just sad that a whole class is kinda meh.
The Real Space Initiative - V7
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.12.21 08:30:00 -
[15]
Show me a T3 that can put out 1000dps with 1500dps tank like a deadspace fitted maelstrom can do and I'll agree.
Since they never will I'm afraid you are talking non-sence. No smaller ship can put out combined DPS+tank of a BS, even a command ship which costs significantly more.
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.21 10:32:00 -
[16]
That spreadsheet of yours needs a lot more columns: DPS. Range. Slots. Skill training time. Price. Etc.
Basing your argument on a single stat, one that BS just happen to have the easiest time boosting (buffer), is a recipe for disaster (ie. ridicule/flames).
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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.21 11:18:00 -
[17]
I agree. I fly every subcapital ship from every race, and have been able to for over a year now. I dabble in all areas of eve, and have not flown a battleship in about 8 months.
Battleships are now nothing more then a halfway house for newbies between when they get t2 cruisers and battle cruisers, and when they move to t2/3 of the same.
There are reasons for this. Flexibility is one. T2 BC's especially can wrap multiple roles into one with fair effectiveness. You simply cannot get the same balance of tank and gank out of a battleship, although you can get more raw HP. But raw HP bring the fitting problems of many BS's to the fore. The Tempest has been crying out for a powergrid buff for a long time now.
In light of this, there are three things we could do. We could nerf ****ing everything below BS, or buff the BS vs everything below it.
However, I would rather see them pushed into an anti-capital setting. In much the same way that several determined cruisers can take down a battleship with fair ease, I would like to see battleships become more effective against super-capitals. Make their weapons much less potent against targets smaller then battleships, but put out more DPS at longer ranges. Allow all BS's to fit a micro-siege module. There are many things that could be done to achieve this.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.12.21 11:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Fearless M0F0 I just got a Tengu for my mission alt, I can't believe I can clear a LVL 4 faster with it than with a Battleship or Marauder . And he still hasn't maxed out subsystems
I don't believe you either. I fly a CNR and a Tengu. The Tengu cannot deliver the same DPS to battleships that a properly fitted battleship can deliver. With low (level 3) subsystem skills the Tengu will be on par with a Drake in terms of DPS.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Makko Gray
Nexus Aerospace Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.21 14:45:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Makko Gray on 21/12/2010 14:48:42
Originally by: Rhinanna Show me a T3 that can put out 1000dps with 1500dps tank like a deadspace fitted maelstrom can do and I'll agree.
Since they never will I'm afraid you are talking non-sence. No smaller ship can put out combined DPS+tank of a BS, even a command ship which costs significantly more.
Deadspace fitted Proteus can get pretty close to that (well tanked against serps at least) - but being smaller the T3 cruisers have 2 main advantages when compared to a BS - more of that theoretical max damage is applied when using medium weapons vs large. You also take less damage compared to a BS due to smaller sig radius and usually being faster. So direct number comparisons can be misleading and don't always hold much value.
That said running with a T3 has it's own problems - getting webbed and/or target painted will really open you up to taking more incoming damage and often you don't have as much range, though generally you'll be faster. So I don't think BS really need boosting since they cost a fraction of a T3 for about equivalent power all told.
All in all T3s will make a better mission boat than a BS for some missions, but I generally find you can more easily use a BS (adjusting a few mods between missions) to be able to run all missions so BS is more versatile in that sense.
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Captain Campion
Corp 1 Allstars Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.12.21 16:01:00 -
[20]
There's a pretty big gap between BS and Carrier. Nowhere else does this gap exist. It's also very unrealistic - in the real world: spaceships come in all shapes and sizes not "cap" and "subcap".
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Chuc Morris
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Posted - 2010.12.21 18:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Professor Bunsen BS's still can still pack more dps and have more EHP than T3s, but if you're comparing t1 and t2 to t3, yeah the difference isn't that great; T3s also cost significantly more, so a more fair comparison would be with faction BSs, and they are significantly better.
False, T3 can get over 200K EHP -Ok with Faction BS's are slightly expensive but not significant and T3 cost the same and are more efficient.
Quote: Also, mass / volume isn't a great indicator of "size" compared to signature radius. The only time mass matters is wormholes, which is what T3s are all about.
Sorry to read this
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Fearless M0F0
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.12.22 10:24:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 22/12/2010 10:25:52
Originally by: Mara Rinn I don't believe you either. I fly a CNR and a Tengu. The Tengu cannot deliver the same DPS to battleships that a properly fitted battleship can deliver. With low (level 3) subsystem skills the Tengu will be on par with a Drake in terms of DPS.
Odd, I got the Raven after trying to clear a LVL 4 for 1 hr in a Drake . I can tell I decided to buy tengu after doing blockade in a all T2 Raven. With the Tengu I teared through it in half the time with subsystems at 2 and T1 launchers
-- I take offense on people feeling offended by me |
Fearless M0F0
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.12.22 10:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zanzbar if your marauder is a less efficient mission runner then a t3 then your fitting it wrong
Maybe not less efficient, pretty much on par -- I take offense on people feeling offended by me |
Fearless M0F0
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.12.22 10:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
back to post 1. You should realise that you're comparing a T1 battleship, which is pretty much free considering insurance, with a T3 cruiser, which is expensive to begin with and can't be insured either.
So battleships are for cheap PvP or PvE, while T3 cruisers are for rich PvPers and rich mission runners.
My point is not about price/benefit but size/benefit. CCP made battleships around 10 times the size of cruisers but for some reason they only get like 3 times the benefit... it just doesn't make sense.
-- I take offense on people feeling offended by me |
Mocam
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Posted - 2010.12.22 11:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Makko Gray Edited by: Makko Gray on 21/12/2010 14:48:42
Originally by: Rhinanna Show me a T3 that can put out 1000dps with 1500dps tank like a deadspace fitted maelstrom can do and I'll agree.
Since they never will I'm afraid you are talking non-sence. No smaller ship can put out combined DPS+tank of a BS, even a command ship which costs significantly more.
Deadspace fitted Proteus can get pretty close to that (well tanked against serps at least) - but being smaller the T3 cruisers have 2 main advantages when compared to a BS - more of that theoretical max damage is applied when using medium weapons vs large. You also take less damage compared to a BS due to smaller sig radius and usually being faster. So direct number comparisons can be misleading and don't always hold much value.
That said running with a T3 has it's own problems - getting webbed and/or target painted will really open you up to taking more incoming damage and often you don't have as much range, though generally you'll be faster. So I don't think BS really need boosting since they cost a fraction of a T3 for about equivalent power all told.
All in all T3s will make a better mission boat than a BS for some missions, but I generally find you can more easily use a BS (adjusting a few mods between missions) to be able to run all missions so BS is more versatile in that sense.
You've more guts than I do. I'd probably go with a HAC over the Proteus but if I do go T3 -- It won't be the Gallente one. No insult -- probably more a style/comfort in play gig.
I looked at the Proteus and wasn't impressed with it so I've skipped training in that direction. I could get decent DPS numbers -OR- decent tank but both was very difficult without spending vast amounts on the ship. The Tengu seems to fit up much easier but I'm not into cross-training for Caldari ships.
Instead I use a navy domi and it works well for PvE. So, for far less ISK, I end up with a battleship that hits harder, packs more/better drones but moves a bit slower and is easier to hit... It costs about HALF what a Proteus will that tries to get to what my domi can do.
Again -- about the only T3 I've looked at fitting that was easy to fit is the Tengu. That thing's a joke to get strong tank -AND- good DPS out of so I can see why it's thought so highly of. The Gallente T3... I couldn't find an acceptable fit worth pursuing.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.22 13:52:00 -
[26]
Proteus is only really useful for pvp. In PvE a Tengu, CNR or Golem will be much better. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.22 15:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy This probably isn't possible with the way things are now, and some will not like the idea due to the old rock, paper and scissors mind set. But here goes anyway ... BS need point defense against smaller ships. A second "row" of high slots, three or four, that can only fit cruiser sized weapons and below, the grid and CPU and cap to support them..
Yeah yeah I know, solopwn mobile arguments and all that, it's a game blah blah, spare me. Still, it's a freaking Battleship. Right now it's the lol-mobile. They can hardly move fast enough to get under the guns of the uppers, and any brick with legs can get under them.
Just sad that a whole class is kinda meh.
Not really realistic to expect (since it would require pretty much a complete redesign of combat system), but they could also do it with a "damage threshold" model; i.e. an amount of damage which, up to that amount, the attack is reduced to 1 dmg or so. Frigates have 0 DT, cruisers have DT which will negate, like, frigate-sized weapons with 1.0 multiplier ammo and level 3-ish skills, BSes have a DT to negate cruiser weapons w/ 1.0 mult and 3-ish skills, and caps have DT for BS-sized weapons. Add in "armor penetrating" ammo which does, say, 50% damage or some such but ignores DT, and you have a situation where if your ship is out of it's weight class, your attacks will pretty much just bounce off unless you specifically fit to hunt larger ships.
Ofc, it would also require rebalanced HP values and modules and everything, but it would make combat much more dynamic. They could even make it so shield extenders/armor plates offer much less or no HP boost, but significantly increase the DT of your ship... and maybe nanos decrease the DT.
Again, would be essentially a complete overhaul of combat system, probably will never happen... but I just think it would make ship combat much more interesting and dynamic.
*** [ SIG] ***
Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ] |
ShadowGod56
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Posted - 2010.12.22 16:13:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy My machariel would like to have a word with you
what the **** happened to your face LOL
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