Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Xolornem Srrpep
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:04:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xolornem Srrpep on 21/12/2010 13:06:56 Edited by: Xolornem Srrpep on 21/12/2010 13:06:36 I think the title sums this issue up well. CSM selection should be based on the candidates' critical thinking skills and knowledge of current mechanics, and it's currently based on which candidate is the nicest to other people (and so gets the most votes from people on premises totally unrelated to knowing what makes a good game feature.)
You might ask, "But Xolo, what system do you propose we use? Surely the players will still want a part in the elections of the CSM, and we can't rob them of that or they'll make a lot of whiny forum topics."
I have the answer, and it lies with history. A long time ago, even before the Backstreet Boys were still hip, a group of British colonies decided they didn't like tea and biscuits, so they decided to secede. After they realized they had no government, they established their nation under a pure representative democracy - similar to what the CSM election process is now.
Fortunately, there were also smart people running the nation. They decided that since most of the public has no idea what makes a person good at making decisions (or in this case running a country), there needed to be a filter process. The Electoral College was established, which is essentially a committee of people who know what makes a good representative/decision maker.
The CSM needs an Electoral College to help weed out some of the more stupid choices by the CSM-voting player base. I propose one of two similar ideas:
Have CCP either- Serve as the EVElectoral College (I don't have a doubt that they, as game developers, have critical thinking skills and an in-depth knowledge of the game.) or Pick people to serve as members of the EVElectoral College every x CSM elections (It is also likely that they can judge these attributes in a non-bias manor.)
(Please write in what x should be in your comments. I personally think every 2 elections would be reasonable.) In either situation, the EVElectoral college would elect a group of y (could be anywhere from 25 to 150+) candidates the players would then vote on.
I think this would lead to much better CSM groups.
|
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:09:00 -
[2]
You forgot the senate and the house to balance out the CSM's power.
Could you pick a ****tier style of elections to emulate?
|
Xolornem Srrpep
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:13:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Xolornem Srrpep on 21/12/2010 13:12:58 Yes, you could. "Democracy is a terrible form of government, but it also happens to be the best one we have."
|
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:22:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep Edited by: Xolornem Srrpep on 21/12/2010 13:12:58 Yes, you could. "Democracy is a terrible form of government, but it also happens to be the best one we have."
Then you want to suggest a democracy not a republic.
|
Xolornem Srrpep
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:29:00 -
[5]
You can call it what you want as long as it works.
|
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:31:00 -
[6]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 21/12/2010 13:32:01 The Electoral college is a relic of a time when the average travel time between cities was measured in days, not hours, and people couldn't take that much time off to whatever they were doing in order to put food on the table to go talk about tax law, most of which they didn't understand anyway.
Given the advances in technology - hey wow I can talk to someone on the other side of the planet instantly - the Electoral college is like the last living dinosaur of a previous governmental era, and I for one am just waiting for it to fossilize and die.
On the subject of the OP, of course it's a popularity contest. You don't actually think all those nice people in Washington are there because they're smart and have your best interests at heart do you?
No seriously...you don't think that, do you? --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep You can call it what you want as long as it works.
And in your opinion this new system that is based on something antiquated and incredibly ineffective should work better than our current one?
|
Xolornem Srrpep
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:40:00 -
[8]
Something being old doesn't negate its usefulness. The electoral college does its job well, and there is no need to change it - it still being around is testament to its effectiveness.
If you actually have an argument as to why this idea wouldn't work, you can feel free to post it.
|
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep Something being old doesn't negate its usefulness. The electoral college does its job well, and there is no need to change it - it still being around is testament to its effectiveness.
If you actually have an argument as to why this idea wouldn't work, you can feel free to post it.
Right, ignoring the numerous downsides to the electoral college are not "actually arguments".
Or hey maybe you think something that nullifies many players votes simply because of where they choose to take up residence is a good idea for some reason. But something tells me you actually want this method because none of your candidates got elected and you think this will help in the future for them to do so.
|
Xolornem Srrpep
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:45:00 -
[10]
Perhaps you should take it at face value and not make ridiculous assumptions.
|
|
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep Perhaps you should take it at face value and not make ridiculous assumptions.
You mean like the assumption the current voting mechanic doesn't get us the candidates we the players want? You are railing against what makes up the very core of a democracy while at the same time shining your "I love democracy" badge as much as possible.
|
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep Something being old doesn't negate its usefulness. The electoral college does its job well, and there is no need to change it - it still being around is testament to its effectiveness.
If you actually have an argument as to why this idea wouldn't work, you can feel free to post it.
The fact that something is still around doesn't indicate it is particularly well suited for the current environment. But you don't really expect those guys to vote themselves out of a job do you? Human nature being what it is, I expect we'll invent teleportation and have colonies on other planets before we get rid of that particular antiquity.
As to why this idea wouldn't work, it fails the check of the K.I.S.S. principle. There's no pressing reason to chance the existing system, aside from the fact that you don't particularly like how it works. It's politics man - all politics is conducted in one of two ways - either by being popular (ever stop and wonder why they call it the popular vote) or by having more guns than the other guys.
And, being as this is a game and the CSM are doing their jobs as effectively as any other set of elected representatives, there's no pressing reason to alter how they do business. Sort of your own logic, there, wot?
--Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
Xolornem Srrpep
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:53:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Xolornem Srrpep on 21/12/2010 13:56:32 The candidates the players want aren't the candidates best for the CSM. As I've explained, the most well-liked candidates get the spot; being well-liked doesn't make you good at game design.
The CSM should to be a committee of people who both understand the game from a player's perspective and understand game design or have good critical thinking skills. The election process, as a whole, is a way of finding the people with those two traits, and as-is it is flawed. Nobody votes of the people most fitted for the job, but rather the people closest to them or the most famous people.
It doesn't make for a very good CSM.
|
Xolornem Srrpep
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:56:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Xolornem Srrpep on 21/12/2010 13:57:19
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep Something being old doesn't negate its usefulness. The electoral college does its job well, and there is no need to change it - it still being around is testament to its effectiveness.
If you actually have an argument as to why this idea wouldn't work, you can feel free to post it.
The fact that something is still around doesn't indicate it is particularly well suited for the current environment. But you don't really expect those guys to vote themselves out of a job do you? Human nature being what it is, I expect we'll invent teleportation and have colonies on other planets before we get rid of that particular antiquity.
As to why this idea wouldn't work, it fails the check of the K.I.S.S. principle. There's no pressing reason to chance the existing system, aside from the fact that you don't particularly like how it works. It's politics man - all politics is conducted in one of two ways - either by being popular (ever stop and wonder why they call it the popular vote) or by having more guns than the other guys.
And, being as this is a game and the CSM are doing their jobs as effectively as any other set of elected representatives, there's no pressing reason to alter how they do business. Sort of your own logic, there, wot?
I like that you've reasoned out why you don't support. The comparison to the Electoral College given in the OP is arbitrary and the idea is quite different in practice (as outlined in the OP) so let's disregard this talk about the Electoral College in actual politics.
There is a pressing need, in my mind, for it to be changed. CSM candidates are judged by players based on how well they can sweet-talk or how large of a public image they have, not their working knowledge of game design (or the game, in some cases.)
|
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 13:59:00 -
[15]
Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 21/12/2010 14:02:29
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep Edited by: Xolornem Srrpep on 21/12/2010 13:56:32 The candidates the players want aren't the candidates best for the CSM. As I've explained, the most well-liked candidates get the spot; being well-liked doesn't make you good at game design.
The CSM should to be a committee of people who both understand the game from a player's perspective and understand game design or have good critical thinking skills. The election process, as a whole, is a way of finding the people with those two traits, and as-is it is flawed. Nobody votes of the people most fitted for the job, but rather the people closest to them or the most famous people.
It doesn't make for a very good CSM.
So you think that a group of players voted for by the "dumb" popular vote will vote for the "smart" players because....why?
Also why do you assume the people in position right now shouldnt be there? Because you disagree with them? Because their area of expertise isn't in your own area?
That's pretty arrogant
|
Shobon Welp
GoonFleet Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 14:05:00 -
[16]
Players should need 30m skill points and their own T2 BPO before they are allowed to vote.
|
De Guantanamo
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 15:08:00 -
[17]
Quote: A platform for players to bring topics to the attention of the Council of Stellar Management.
Now remind me, why would the current CSM bring this idea to CCP in its current form if the current election process is what got them their seats?
Also, this is by far one of the better CSMs we have had. Stop crying and get out of Assembly Hall.
|
SkinSin
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 15:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep Fortunately, there were also smart people running the nation. They decided that since most of the public has no idea what makes a person good at making decisions (or in this case running a country), there needed to be a filter process. The Electoral College was established, which is essentially a committee of people who know what makes a good representative/decision maker.
I have 4 words for you:
Sarah Palin Gearge Bush
|
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 17:16:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 21/12/2010 17:16:42
Originally by: Shobon Welp Players should need 30m skill points and their own T2 BPO before they are allowed to vote.
You do realise that there are a lot of pretty worthless T2 BPOs out there? Some of them are worth as little as a billion isk, and it just isn't right that someone so poor should be allowed to vote.
Also, given that voting runs over a number of days, I think you'd have to evaluate this as 'person with a T2 BPO in their inventory during downtime 1 week before the polls open', or it might turn into a game of 'pass the T2 BPO, I need to vote'.
If we're going down this route, I suggest a property qualification of 5bn isk to vote, and 50bn isk deposits for anyone wanting to stand for CSM, refundable only if they make it into the top 50% of candidates by votes accrued. Non-refunded deposits are permanently lost. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Adunh Slavy
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 21:04:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 21/12/2010 21:05:08 Repeal the 17th amendment! Wrong forum ...
Anyway, though I do understand the OP's intention, It seems overly complex for Eve. Instead perhaps what the CSM needs is something closer to what is being done in Iraq.
In Iraq, a certain percentage of seats is reserved for a class of representatives, such as, women, Shiites, Sunnis, Kurds, etc. For the CSM, this could also be done, people in alliances, NPC corp players, High Sec players, People with negative security status, people with alts, people with out alts, people over five years old, people less than a year old ... So on and so forth.
Something like this would ensure diversity, and still allow popular representation.
So, although I do not agree with the OP's method, I do agree with intent, so supported.
The Real Space Initiative - V7
|
|
Aineko Macx
|
Posted - 2010.12.21 23:51:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 21/12/2010 23:51:36
Originally by: Xolornem Srrpep There is a pressing need, in my mind, for it to be changed. CSM candidates are judged by players based on how well they can sweet-talk or how large of a public image they have, not their working knowledge of game design (or the game, in some cases.)
Scrutinizing their candidate representatives is something any serious voter should do. In cases where direct interaction with candidates is impracticable, it must be done through the media, which of course assumes a working and independent media. Putting that in practice this could mean you can make interviews, hold round tables etc. and try to expose why a candidate is not suited according to your definitions. Again the saying "people get the government they deserve" remains true...
Proposing an electoral college just shifts the problem, because then we have to decide who is apt for that. And if CCP selected them it would be a bigger farce.
And of course ultimately the assumptions you are basing your proposal on are flawed because the CSM doesn't have any real power, so even if it was composed of dorks and would push for bad/unilateral changes, CCP could and will reject ideas they deem unhealthy for the ecosystem that is eve. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.12.22 00:19:00 -
[22]
The CSM is designed to represent the players, not govern the players.
|Bounty Fix|Mining Makeover| |
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2010.12.22 00:26:00 -
[23]
Electoral Colleges are awesome for the simple reason that you only have to bribe or blackmail a few dozen people instead of the entire population.
I fully support this attempt at PvP on the electoral scale :)
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation
|
Posted - 2010.12.22 01:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 22/12/2010 01:45:53 You want democracy and yet you advocate college electoral.
Just goes to show how foolish and jaded you are.
Please... go away before you embarrass yourself. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
ButtChugger
|
Posted - 2010.12.22 04:25:00 -
[25]
Edited by: ButtChugger on 22/12/2010 04:26:29 Edited by: ButtChugger on 22/12/2010 04:25:13 Bro then immutagay wuld be prez. Hellz no nobody lyks him.
|
Mocam
|
Posted - 2010.12.22 08:46:00 -
[26]
Nope.
Thanks but no thanks to another layer of 'meta gaming'.
This popularity contest works or, as I look at it "in real life"...
Q: "so who did you vote for Mr. Sheeple" A: <insert candidate name> Q: "Why?" A: "I like their smile!" Q: "What?!?! not economics? Position on war? ....?!?!?"
The one that decides on the smile at least sees it every time their candidate shows up. The one who votes based upon "issues" -- they are always ticked off at the "trade-offs" and "failed promises" that yield half-assed/LAME solutions.
So, from where I sit -- the one voter will see something worthwhile (a smile they like) vs the other "smarter" voters who are always disappointed at NEVER getting what they were promised.
There is no reason to spread your misery with elections to everyone. Let some enjoy the smiles and the rest of us can mutter about "the issues".
PS: "Popularity contests" work too. There are just as many good as bad laws passed by "the majority" in the US as we get from the crappy "geniuses" put in office via the electoral college... Check local voter initiative stats some time for how that works out and compare to the "WTF" stupidities from the US federal government...
Again, thanks but no thanks.
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |