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Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
3
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Posted - 2012.08.13 16:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
At the moment it seems, for players interested in missions, complex running or mining, this is the situation:
High-sec: Low risk Low-sec: High risk Null-sec: Low risk if you are part of the alliance that owns that area, otherwise high risk
I think the risk/reward ratio for low-sec is way off. I think it should be "medium risk". However, at the moment, apart from a little status loss, there is nothing to deter player pirates from having a free reign in low-sec. There isn't really any difference between low-sec and null-sec in this regard.
I'd like to see low-sec as a proper mid-ground between empire and 0.0. So some risk of being attacked from player pirates, but limited safeguards in place, perhaps:
- Increase gate turrets to 6 (2 can easily be tanked, at least make them challanging) - Small force of Concord that appears (perhaps after a longer delay) on assualt, but limited in effectiveness (perhaps just frigates) to help the victim fight back, or have a chance of escape.
I'm not saying turn it into empire - we already have that - but what it says on the tin "low security". At it stands, there is no security.
Bear in mind that players looking for pve content don't stand a chance against pilots set up for pvp. A wily player should be able to avoid or out smart player pirates in low-sec, but this isn't really possible at the moment, because the aggressors have all the cards. Maybe a mission runner or a miner could get away with a few sessions in low-sec, but sooner rather than later the pilot is going to draw attention, and then his or her life expectancy drops fast.
Give something to those looking to utilise low-sec and let many more pilots enjoy the game there!
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Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Omega Industries
226
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Posted - 2012.08.13 16:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Whilst I do believe that low-sec should be low security I have to admit to agreeing with you on the risk/reward being a little out of whack. I'm more likely to spend time in someone else's nullsec than I am spending any time in low sec. The only thing I do in low sec is pass through and even then I try to mitigate that by using cap ships to jump stuff from the high/low border straight into null.
The only problem with concord response is that unless it's like high sec and pretty much a guarantee of the agressor being toasted it's a little pointless. All it'll do is make the low sec pirates band together until the concord response can be easily mitigated and that would do the complete opposite of what you're proposing, or at least has the potential to.
Increasing the sec status hits won't have much effect either as it'll just stop casual pirates from trying to find pew pew but won't deter the career pirates at all.
Personally I think that your idea of increasing the guns on gates would be an excellent idea but I'd take that one stage further and include stations. Make it dangerous for the pirates to attack someone "in broad daylight", as it were. So heavily penalise any aggression around travel or docking points meaning that the pirates have to actually try to find kills rather than just having to wait for one to come along. That way the mission runners wouldn't be so utterly screwed when travelling about or undocking but make missions just as dangerous to run. The miner mining in a belt is pretty easy pray but for those with a bit of sense you're as safe as you are mission running if you just mine grav sites in low sec.
That way, if you want to mission or mine in low sec you can but you have to keep a permanent eye open or risk getting jumped inside your mission with no chance of npc rescue but you don't have to crap yourself evey time you pass through a gate or undock from a station so much. It is, after all, still supposed to be owned by the empires so it should have at least some law if only in specific locations.
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Gazmin VanBurin
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
69
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Posted - 2012.08.13 16:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Having been a low sec pirate and almost everything else in eve, i can tell you, while there are a few low sec camps, i could jump in a mission domi and likely make 30 jumps trough low sec without getting caught right now. Low sec isent near as scary as people think. most the pirates kill are the idiots who jump into lowsec and try to rat in a drake, and other pirates or anti pirates. Half the pirates i know fly cruisers and down, so they cant even engadge most ships on a gate. Blame easy probing for the people who die in low sec missions.
So instead of makign low sec, high sec light. how about bringing friends with you, watchign Dscan, have a scout ahead of you, find a relitivly empty low sec (there is plenty of it) I personaly think low sec needs alittle something to make it special, but it sure dosent need nurfed. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
783
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Posted - 2012.08.13 16:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Denied.
Seriously, come to low sec and I'll show you what I think of your idea.
The proper way to open low sec is to lighten up the Sec Status loss so that more people come roaming into Low Sec, when that happens you will have more corps ready to hold territory in low sec and that will open up industrial pilots feeling safer in low sec when their PVPers are providing support in the area.
The reason Null Sec works isn't because it's safer.
The reason Low Sec isn't working is because it's trying to do the "NPC will give you some safety crap" while trying to let players have some chance for killing stuff.
Which is spreading too thin.
Low Sec should have less penalties for PVP, less gate guns for PVP, because whenever I have to deal with pushing our low sec agenda with our high sec PVPers, I inevitably have to deal with a lot of bitching about how they won't be able to enter hi-sec because of sec Status, GCC, and so on.
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Gazmin VanBurin
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
69
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Posted - 2012.08.13 17:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
How about instead of gate guns you replace them with a few NPC police on the gate, liek a low sec incursion sansha camp, but only attack people with GCC, and shootign the police gives you GCC, the police can be killable, but kinda tought, and have scram and webs so you cant just warp away like you can from gate guns. and the number of police on gates decreese the deeper you get into low sec. |
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
4
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Posted - 2012.08.13 19:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:Seriously, come to low sec and I'll show you what I think of your idea. No, I don't trust you ;-)
You want more pvpers in low sec, but you're not going to get targets for you to take pot shots at unless pilots feel more confident going there.
The balance is wrong.
There's too many lions and not enough zebras. A few more park wardens would make all the difference.
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
204
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Posted - 2012.08.13 19:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
So your plan to make more people go into lowsec is to make it so people cant fight there. That will surely draw people to lowsec so they can fight other people |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1212
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Posted - 2012.08.13 19:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Low sec can be medium risk. You just have to learn to fly.
And not make stupid mistakes. I'm guilty of that... |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2012.08.13 19:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Chimpy B wrote:Bloodpetal wrote:Seriously, come to low sec and I'll show you what I think of your idea. No, I don't trust you ;-) You want more pvpers in low sec, but you're not going to get targets for you to take pot shots at unless pilots feel more confident going there. The balance is wrong. There's too many lions and not enough zebras. A few more park wardens would make all the difference.
Indeed, My understanding was that goon pilots couldnt find enough zebras out in null and had to start poaching in the game sanctuary. only to find to their delight, the wardens are inept.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
Kitt JT
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Nulli Secunda
69
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Posted - 2012.08.13 21:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm curious as to why you think that the risk/reward for lowsec is out of whack. I think it has the highest risk/reward after wormholes (lets face it, wh's are pretty safe most of the time).
Hisec is both low risk and (mostly) low reward.
Nullsec is high risk (although there are many things people can cooperate to do to mitigate those risks) and high reward.
Lowsec is currently relatively middle of the road risk, and high reward.
Lowsec pirates are quite often in shitfit cruisers and below. Not a lot of organized gangs larger than frigs. There are also a couple things that make lowsec quite low risk (when compared to null)
Lets start with bubbles. Bubbles **** your **** up. If you've never spent a significant amount of time in null, you won't know what i'm talking about. If you die in null, there's a decent chance your pod is going to die as well. In low, more often than not, you can get it out.
Jumping into bubbles: The average ship (battlecruisers, cruisers, frigates, and battleships) are guaranteed tackled. Pods are guaranteed dead. The only ships that really have a good chance are very fast ships (cyna, ceptors, etc.) and covert ops ships.
On that note, covops are nigh-invulnerable in lowsec. If you don't want to be caught, chances are you won't be. In null, jumping into a bubble in a covops is still a small battle to get away.
Drag/stop bubbles. When you warp directly to a gate in null, there's always a chance of flying past the gate and landing in one. Then the dudes come and kill you and you're done. In low, you can always warp directly to a gate with no fear of being tackled (on that side).
Even frigates have to weigh the benefits of tackling your ship, vs getting popped by the gate guns. In larger fights, gate guns easily can sway a fight in favor of whoever agresses last.
Carriers don't have to fear getting drive-by'd in low.
All of these things make lowsec a LOT safer to just move around in than null. And about that reward.
Currently, in faction warfare you can make MORE than enough LP for a tier 1 faction bs in under an hour. Do the math, but keep in mind that the BS are one of the worst ISK/LP conversions you can do.
Its easy to get several hundred mil an hour running in FW.
Not enough reward?
Lowsec plexes are ridiculously easy. They have far less ships to kill. The ships are smaller. The sites are smaller. The escalations are shorter. And they still drop faction/deadspace loot.
Several of my corpies didn't even make their isk in null, they took lowsec vacations to make their isk. Its easy to hit 200m/hr doing lowsec plexes.
Incursions. I'll remind you that the lowsec incursions are currently the only place that the Revenant BPC is capable of dropping. This makes these sites EXTREMELY valuable.
So forgive me if I'm confused as to why you think that the risk/reward is out of whack. Perhaps you should articulate yourself better. If you're talking about mining or missions, you're probably right. But why don't you just do those in hisec? |
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
207
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Posted - 2012.08.13 21:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lowsec pve actually pays better than null sec pve. The LP stores are better (if you know where to mission), the plexes are easier (and drop better loot), and there are no bubbles. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1465
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Posted - 2012.08.13 22:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Another proposal suffering from the premise that making space harder to claim and defend will make it more encouraging and popular to live in. |
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
4
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Posted - 2012.08.14 10:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kitt JT wrote:I'm curious as to why you think that the risk/reward for lowsec is out of whack. I think it has the highest risk/reward after wormholes (lets face it, wh's are pretty safe most of the time). Try taking a battleship or battlecruiser set up for complexes in to low sec. You might be ok for a few hours, but searching down sites requires jumping between systems a lot, and the chances of encountering some goons at a gate is pretty high. Go visit the missions and complexes forum, you'll see how many players say this.
There's usually a small gang, often with a remote repper. The dps from gate guns is pretty easy to tank. L4 missions deal out more dps. Not having a bubble doesn't stop them from locking the ship fast (remember you're in a BS or BC) and being warp scrambled. Boom.
(and who uses a covert ops ships for complexing?) |
Kitt JT
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Nulli Secunda
74
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Chimpy B wrote:Kitt JT wrote:I'm curious as to why you think that the risk/reward for lowsec is out of whack. I think it has the highest risk/reward after wormholes (lets face it, wh's are pretty safe most of the time). Try taking a battleship or battlecruiser set up for complexes in to low sec. You might be ok for a few hours, but searching down sites requires jumping between systems a lot, and the chances of encountering some goons at a gate is pretty high. Go visit the missions and complexes forum, you'll see how many players say this. There's usually a small gang, often with a remote repper. The dps from gate guns is pretty easy to tank. L4 missions deal out more dps. Not having a bubble doesn't stop them from locking the ship fast (remember you're in a BS or BC) and being warp scrambled. Boom. (and who uses a covert ops ships for complexing?)
I'm now convinced you're dumb, or don't understand this game at all. In eve, you will be faced with many challenges. Challenges which will require thinking to overcome. Plexing in null has the same problems as in low, with the added problems of bubbles.7
If you think the solution is using a battlecruiser or battleship, you're completely wrong.
Assuming you have no alts for scouts of course, you know who use a covert ops ship for plexing? The smart people. Download EFT, think to yourself "what are the problems i must overcome" and overcome them.
I figured out a ship and fit that worked just fine. It just takes some time, and some brains. So HTFU |
MushroomMushroom
Consolidated Sprocket
32
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Posted - 2012.08.16 04:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hint for plexing lowsec: T2 or T3
The real problem with lowsec is the inability to effectively secure space. Basically every station system has at least a few neuts in it, maybe docked, maybe AFK, but none the less a constant threat. The reason 0.0 can be safe is that you follow strict security protocalls and get safe the moment anyone who isn't blue enters local, for much of lowsec, doing so just isn't practical. |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
143
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Posted - 2012.08.16 06:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
I've lived in nullsec. It's safer than lowsec. I've lived there too. Nullsec forces you to be organized to reap a greater reward. Lowsec does not have the rewards or the sovereignty protection.
Lowsec is broken, and people are leaving. They have been for ages. Seriously, join an alliance and go to nullsec.
The risk needs to be lowered to match the lower than nullsec rewards. Lower the risk and the PvP-lovers who want easy victims cry foul.
Someone is going to be unhappy. Right now it's the victims. When I lived in lowsec, it proved economically nonviable. If the victims can't turn a profit, they leave. Or I should say, they left. This does mean more resources to fewer people, so some can turn a profit, but not enough to sustain "over hunting" of PvE income earners.
Everyone wants better, but no one wants change.
Something has to give. What we need is a nerf/buff to lowsec. Small gangs need a buff. They have been accidentally nerfed repeatedly. It also needs to be safer in lowsec.
They have been talking about removing static rock belts since 05. I think that needs to happen in lowsec. They should mask the signatures of ships. Yes, a lone miner would be hard to find among hundreds of rock belts, but not if there were lots of miners. |
Noumena Dingansich
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2012.08.16 19:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
I have to believe that a lot of people posting in this thread have not been to lowsec, or have only been there because their autopilots took them through Rancer. Lowsec is wide open. I carebear in lowsec and have for months now. I'm pretty sure it's not actually worth it, isk-wise, but since I am playing a computer game I actually enjoy doing something a little risky.
Learn to fit your ships, make safe spots in systems where you hang out a lot, stay aligned when mining/ratting, make a warp-out bookmark straight out of the undock of any station you use regularly. If you do all that, will you be as safe as you were in highsec? No! But you won't be easy pickings, either. If you want to play the game mostly afk and fly ships you can't afford to lose then stay in highsec, but don't complain about lowsec being broken.
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teh munK
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
2
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Posted - 2012.08.16 19:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kitt JT wrote: Lowsec is currently relatively middle of the road risk, and high reward.
So i risk my expensive T3, scanning ship etc. Spend long time scanning for decent sites, which let me remind all the nullsec and highsec people out there aren't exactly numerous. I can scan about 10-20 systems and maybe only find 1-3 combat sites that are actually worth running. Sure they might be easy, but there is still risk of being scanned out and losing the site altogether to a small gang.
And now for the rewards, after spending a couple of hours scanning systems, flying around low sec in a non cloaky flashy red T3 i get a 10m ISK drop from each site i run. WOW risk vs reward, a highsec mission bear could grind that in about 10 minutes running level 4's.
The risk vs reward is definetly out of whack, but completey the wrong way around to what has been said in here. LOTS of risk / little to no reward. |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
379
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Posted - 2012.08.16 21:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Just stop camping those gates and let players in yourself? Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Dennis Gregs
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.08.16 21:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
As you said, the problem with low sec is that the risk-reward ratio is WAY off. Unless your corp/alliance/buddies/whatever has the system secured, the additional payout of missions, for instance, is extremely minimal when compared to the risks at hand.
Increasing the mission rewards for low sec missions significantly might be a decent first step, but it might not be a solution because those that could already live in low sec will now make even more money and the rest might still not be able to dig in. At least it would give some kind of incentive though, which currently just isn't there.
Bottom line... something needs to happen... not sure what... |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
406
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Posted - 2012.08.16 21:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Low sec has more activity per system than null sec, especially NPC Null Sec regions like Syndicate. Why not have CCP fix them first?
Read Dotlan maps to find agents, spot activity of an area you interested in, etc... Then, get into a rookie ship and scout around a bit. Understand the political geography. Make safespots, etc... ... What you'll find is that outside a few systems near choke points low sec is relatively empty and safe.
Once you settle into an area the guys who live there will want to get you into their intel channels and probably into their corporation for mutual support and then things will be cake for you. Once you have access to intel, you're set. As they say: Friendship is best ship.
If you're a carebear, move around in cloakies - you can't get caught at gates etc... If you want some action but want to be relatively safe then move around in agile frigates.
You just have to take a bit of initiative and go do it.
Logistics: Red Frog/Black Frog. For carebears who don't want to lose ships, one JF load is all you'll ever need to set up shop forever in low sec. Plenty of factory slots to build your T1 ammo for missions. Plenty of loot to keep you going.
Income: Missions all over in nearly empty systems. Exploration. POCOs. etc...
Have at it guys. |
Kitt JT
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Nulli Secunda
75
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Posted - 2012.08.16 22:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you're having trouble being profitable running sites in lowsec, you're doing it wrong! |
Noumena Dingansich
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.08.16 22:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Just stop camping those gates and let players in yourself?
You can just fly right through those gate camps if you aren't an idiot. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
239
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Posted - 2012.08.16 22:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Noumena Dingansich wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Just stop camping those gates and let players in yourself? You can just fly right through those gate camps if you aren't an idiot.
Not all gatecamps. |
Noumena Dingansich
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.08.16 22:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Noumena Dingansich wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Just stop camping those gates and let players in yourself? You can just fly right through those gate camps if you aren't an idiot. Not all gatecamps.
In lowsec, almost all of them. Well known high traffic pirate hangouts go on your avoidance list.
Do you really want lowsec to be as low risk as highsec? Or are you just commenting on the badassery of your particular gate camp? In the second case, hey, rock on. In the first case, just stay in highsec. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
406
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Posted - 2012.08.16 22:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Not all gatecamps. Enough of them for you to be successful in low sec. |
Noumena Dingansich
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.08.16 22:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
Honestly, the stupid incursions are more of a pain than the gate camps. |
Generals4
1024
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Posted - 2012.08.16 23:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gazmin VanBurin wrote:Having been a low sec pirate and almost everything else in eve, i can tell you, while there are a few low sec camps, i could jump in a mission domi and likely make 30 jumps trough low sec without getting caught right now. Low sec isent near as scary as people think. most the pirates kill are the idiots who jump into lowsec and try to rat in a drake, and other pirates or anti pirates. Half the pirates i know fly cruisers and down, so they cant even engadge most ships on a gate. Blame easy probing for the people who die in low sec missions.
So instead of makign low sec, high sec light. how about bringing friends with you, watchign Dscan, have a scout ahead of you, find a relitivly empty low sec (there is plenty of it) I personaly think low sec needs alittle something to make it special, but it sure dosent need nurfed.
Tell that to all the insta lock T3 gate campers. Actually when it comes to pirates i rarely see them in ships smaller than BC/T3. The guys in small ships are usually FW folks.
-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
379
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Posted - 2012.08.16 23:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Noumena Dingansich wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Noumena Dingansich wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Just stop camping those gates and let players in yourself? You can just fly right through those gate camps if you aren't an idiot. Not all gatecamps. In lowsec, almost all of them. Well known high traffic pirate hangouts go on your avoidance list. Do you really want lowsec to be as low risk as highsec? Or are you just commenting on the badassery of your particular gate camp? In the second case, hey, rock on. In the first case, just stay in highsec.
You are not getting my point.
If you want people into Low-sec, stop preying on people trying to do just that.
It is not rocket science as to why people are hesitant to enter Low-sec.
Just because there are sneaky ways to avoid them doesn't encourage people to take the gamble. Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Noumena Dingansich
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.08.17 01:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Noumena Dingansich wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Noumena Dingansich wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Just stop camping those gates and let players in yourself? You can just fly right through those gate camps if you aren't an idiot. Not all gatecamps. In lowsec, almost all of them. Well known high traffic pirate hangouts go on your avoidance list. Do you really want lowsec to be as low risk as highsec? Or are you just commenting on the badassery of your particular gate camp? In the second case, hey, rock on. In the first case, just stay in highsec. You are not getting my point. If you want people into Low-sec, stop preying on people trying to do just that. It is not rocket science as to why people are hesitant to enter Low-sec. Just because there are sneaky ways to avoid them doesn't encourage people to take the gamble.
You dumb sack of poop. I am not a pirate. I am a carebear. I fly around lowsec all the time. Ain't no thing, really. You're a wussbag. You chickenshit highsec wussbags are everything that's wrong with this game. I'm newbie with barely any skills and I'm not nearly as chickenshit as you. Eat that. |
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