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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Pyrostasis
Caldari TDK Industries Cold Bastards
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Posted - 2010.12.23 04:57:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Pyrostasis on 23/12/2010 05:10:53 Earlier this year there was a bit of drama regarding multiboxing. Drama was seemingly cleared up by this post.
I then put up a video for one of my guildmates who was curious about how I boxed in eve as I boxed in other games.
One of the commenters on said video told me it was against the rules, and then supposedly got these two responses from gm staff.
Was informed I wasnt allowed to post the GM message, where the GM said multicasting isnt allowed.
and
Was informed I wasnt allowed to post the GM msg where the GM said multicasting is automation.
However, this seems to directly contradict the post here by the head GM where in the last paragraph it is clearly stated that keyboard multicasting (I press F1 and all clients press F1) is allowed.
So, since I value my eve accounts, and I dont want to risk getting them terminated, could a member of CCP staff please clarify this contradiction for me. Is keyboard multicasting legal or not?
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Herping yourDerp
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Posted - 2010.12.23 05:03:00 -
[2]
unless the GM messages you with a petition or eve mail, i wouldnt trust lol youtube comments.
but its good to get a response here if possible.
any dev care to speek?
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Pyrostasis
Caldari TDK Industries Cold Bastards
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Posted - 2010.12.23 05:04:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Herping yourDerp unless the GM messages you with a petition or eve mail, i wouldnt trust lol youtube comments.
but its good to get a response here if possible.
any dev care to speek?
Yeah I agree, I'll take a senior GM over a random comment any day... but at the same time, its best to be safe.
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Saju Somtaaw
Gallente Department of Defence Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2010.12.23 05:07:00 -
[4]
Posting GM corespondance isn't allowed...so if the messages get removed it'll be telling even if you don't get an official response. I'm inclined to think it would not be allowed though as BACON got declared an export and all it did was give warnings when certain conditions were meant. ---- --- ---
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.23 05:08:00 -
[5]
The part where it mirrors mouse commands across the three clients is the No-No. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
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Pyrostasis
Caldari TDK Industries Cold Bastards
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Posted - 2010.12.23 05:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Blane Xero The part where it mirrors mouse commands across the three clients is the No-No.
That's what I'd like clarified, as far as this is the last public statement "Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed" which is in the thread I linked.
I was unaware that posting GM msg's werent allowed, I'll try and removed them then.
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Pyrostasis
Caldari TDK Industries Cold Bastards
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Posted - 2010.12.23 05:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Saju Somtaaw Posting GM corespondance isn't allowed...so if the messages get removed it'll be telling even if you don't get an official response. I'm inclined to think it would not be allowed though as BACON got declared an export and all it did was give warnings when certain conditions were meant.
Thats different than boxing though, giving a warning when a condition is met is automation, requires no input from you. Boxing nothing happens unless I press a button, and if I stop pressing buttons actions stop happening.
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CCP Spitfire
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Posted - 2010.12.23 13:31:00 -
[8]
An official GM forum post definitely takes precedence over hearsay, but if you want to be on a safe side, please file a petition.
Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online |
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.12.23 14:31:00 -
[9]
Yeah this one came up before with a particular brand of boxing software.
Its fine to manage your clients, but it must be your direct clicks onto the client and not a click reproduced by a macro or by the management software on a different client to the one your viewing.
Sellotaping 3 mice togther however is fine because they are your clicks still and theres no program 'helping' you.
But as everyones already sugested, petition it yourself to make sure you are on the right side of the EULA.
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Mr Dilkington
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Posted - 2010.12.23 14:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
Sellotaping 3 mice togther however is fine because they are your clicks still and theres no program 'helping' you.
hehe, sad but true
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Jack Dant
Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
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Posted - 2010.12.23 14:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dr Fighter it must be your direct clicks onto the client and not a click reproduced by a macro or by the management software on a different client to the one your viewing.
Wrong, from the GM post linked above:
Originally by: GM Lelouch Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed.
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.12.23 15:26:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 23/12/2010 15:27:15
Originally by: CCP Spitfire An official GM forum post definitely takes precedence over hearsay, but if you want to be on a safe side, please file a petition.
The issue once again seems to be that the answers to petitions seem to be random rather than a representation of the way CCP interprets the rules.
Hence getting a final say often only seems to be possible though the forums.
Therefore why bother wasting your time on petitions to which the answers are meaningless.
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Schani Kratnorr
x13 IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.23 15:37:00 -
[13]
1. CCP are not against people having too many accounts 2. Unattended macro/botting tends to break games 3. Controlling more than one client with a single action through software is on the line and may cross it at times 4. Patrolling for unwanted client side software is problematic (at best) 5. See 1. |
Queen Haumeah
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Posted - 2010.12.23 15:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: CCP Spitfire An official GM forum post definitely takes precedence over hearsay, but if you want to be on a safe side, please file a petition.
So you would rather get 100's of petitions asking this same question? Wouldnt it been easier to just answer the question here instead of posting to file a petition?
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GM Lelouch
Game Masters
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Posted - 2010.12.23 16:13:00 -
[15]
Hello there,
I've watched the video in the original post in this thread (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU46QY8lMqI) and I can confirm that nothing done in this particular video is considered to be against the rules as operations within the game are being manually input and not automated. Not having personally used the software in question I cannot say whether it has automation features which would violate the EULA but the specific setup exhibited in the video doesn't break the rules.
Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2010.12.23 17:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: GM Lelouch Hello there,
I've watched the video in the original post in this thread (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU46QY8lMqI) and I can confirm that nothing done in this particular video is considered to be against the rules as operations within the game are being manually input and not automated. Not having personally used the software in question I cannot say whether it has automation features which would violate the EULA but the specific setup exhibited in the video doesn't break the rules.
Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support
Post more please. You seem to actually know what you're talking about, a quality that is distressingly rare in this game.
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Tyber Zaan
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Posted - 2010.12.23 17:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: GM Lelouch Hello there,
I've watched the video in the original post in this thread (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU46QY8lMqI) and I can confirm that nothing done in this particular video is considered to be against the rules as operations within the game are being manually input and not automated. Not having personally used the software in question I cannot say whether it has automation features which would violate the EULA but the specific setup exhibited in the video doesn't break the rules.
Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support
Post more please. You seem to actually know what you're talking about, a quality that is distressingly rare in this game.
If he posted more he'd be perpetually flamed by Test Allaince Please Ignore.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.23 17:35:00 -
[18]
Interesting ...
So far I have lost effectivity relatively fast in fleets after I start controlling more than 2 accounts. With such setup I would be able to control up to 4 .. 5 ships as effectively as I can control one, as long as they are all set up exactly the same way.
Hell I could even fly high consentration ship like logistics, that I have been unable to control in effective manner even when running dualaccount. All I need is to mirror the mouse and keyboard and pray than I dont end up ... desynced by oh.. say .. half of my guys in bubble and other half not in bubble.
Unfortunate sideeffect would be ending up in the crosshairs of someone who is even more serious about EVE and is running 5 motherships with such setup ;). Then again CCP would win from this when everyone and his dog are running 8 accounts doing same things.
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bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.23 18:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Carniflex
So far I have lost effectivity relatively fast in fleets after I start controlling more than 2 accounts. With such setup I would be able to control up to 4 .. 5 ships as effectively as I can control one, as long as they are all set up exactly the same way.
Thanks GM Lelouch, you ave opened the can of worms. We will now for sure see NC fleets 3 times bigger then we have them atm, GJ.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.23 18:30:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Carniflex on 23/12/2010 18:35:31
Originally by: bitters much
Originally by: Carniflex
So far I have lost effectivity relatively fast in fleets after I start controlling more than 2 accounts. With such setup I would be able to control up to 4 .. 5 ships as effectively as I can control one, as long as they are all set up exactly the same way.
Thanks GM Lelouch, you ave opened the can of worms. We will now for sure see NC fleets 3 times bigger then we have them atm, GJ.
Well if you look the video he does not do a lot in there. Only instance where the software he uses is copied across all clients is where he cliks on his char portrait and all chars are logged in, as the click is copied across two other windows. Most of the video is dedicated to the nice ability to see on the same screen what happens on other windows and switching fast between those windows - so basically just fancy windowed mode of EVE.
As far as using this in reality to control many EVE clients in a fleet - in ideal world this would sort of work, but pvp is not an ideal world, especially in fleets, where one guy blackscreens, two will have 3 minute lag but 4th will not have lag and fifth would be just waking up in fresh clone after pushing 'jump'. As soon as your clients get 'desynced' you would be in way over your head. In more controlled conditions perhaps this would perhaps work. Sort of Drake swarming Sanctums or stuff like that.
I'm cautious towards this stuff tho, as previous communications from CCP have indicated that any kind of software used to copy mouse clicks between clients would be illegal. So before you make use it petition and describe exactly what you are planning to do to be sure. All that is said in here is that 'there was no EULA violation in this video', not that you can run multibox software to do whatever you like in EVE.
Edit: Rereading the answer I think the point of it is, that it's sort of legal as long as you physically push the button and physically move the mouse. As soon as there is somekind of automation it's no-no.
That sort of agrees with the answer I myself got a little while ago asking that if my mouse driver can record mouse movements can I use it to refresh the PI cykle. The answer was 'no, as this would in theory enable afk playing'.
So they dont like automation apparently. But running multiple clients at once is ok, even if you have helper program that enables you to control all those clients with single mouse without having to alt-tab between them.
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Pyrostasis
Caldari TDK Industries Cold Bastards
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Posted - 2010.12.23 20:15:00 -
[21]
Thank you for the clarification.
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northwesten
Amarr Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.24 06:22:00 -
[22]
Edited by: northwesten on 24/12/2010 06:24:23 Ok now as I been looking into this myself and trying to understand here. I had 2 GM via petition saying I will be banned using isboxer. just like a few days ago and I when I read here is your not sure video in question is ok.
If the Senior not sure and yet I getting GM's telling me I will be banned using it as it automates..... but I read in dual boxer.com? I think it is saying it doesn't automate.
What I am trying to say is this giving me a freaking headache here. Now I am confused to f$#$@...
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IQ 001
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Posted - 2010.12.24 06:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Pyrostasis Edited by: Pyrostasis on 23/12/2010 05:10:53 Earlier this year there was a bit of drama regarding multiboxing. Drama was seemingly cleared up by this post.
I then put up a video for one of my guildmates who was curious about how I boxed in eve as I boxed in other games.
One of the commenters on said video told me it was against the rules, and then supposedly got these two responses from gm staff.
Was informed I wasnt allowed to post the GM message, where the GM said multicasting isnt allowed.
and
Was informed I wasnt allowed to post the GM msg where the GM said multicasting is automation.
However, this seems to directly contradict the post here by the head GM where in the last paragraph it is clearly stated that keyboard multicasting (I press F1 and all clients press F1) is allowed.
So, since I value my eve accounts, and I dont want to risk getting them terminated, could a member of CCP staff please clarify this contradiction for me. Is keyboard multicasting legal or not?
wait wait wait wait
the GMS DONT ban macro users!
look around...its just 1 of those stories like the space boogyman or or space santa clause or sumtim just to scare u
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Allyson Vannote
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.12.24 06:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tyber Zaan
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: GM Lelouch Hello there,
I've watched the video in the original post in this thread (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU46QY8lMqI) and I can confirm that nothing done in this particular video is considered to be against the rules as operations within the game are being manually input and not automated. Not having personally used the software in question I cannot say whether it has automation features which would violate the EULA but the specific setup exhibited in the video doesn't break the rules.
Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support
Post more please. You seem to actually know what you're talking about, a quality that is distressingly rare in this game.
If he posted more he'd be perpetually flamed by Test Allaince Please Ignore.
If test used half the time and energy they spend on the forums complaining actually playing the game they'd own half of null by now. |
Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.24 06:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: IQ 001
wait wait wait wait
the GMS DONT ban macro users!
look around...its just 1 of those stories like the space boogyman or or space santa clause or sumtim just to scare u
That is not entirely correct you know. I have myself in the past reported suspected macro and I think it's still sitting in my address book, never since been online so it must be banned. They just cant tell You about it as any punishment handed out is between the GM and account owner.
As far as multiboxing and so on goes, after reading over the both the long answer and the shorter one posted in this thread (the long answer is in the thread linked in OP) it seems to be relatively simple. You can run multiple accounts 'mirroring' you keyboard and mouse across all those accounts with the help of additional software or hardware. As soon as the software or hardware you use allows you to get up and go get a cup of coffee while the predetermined actions take place in game without your direct input it's bannable as it will allow in theory afk play.
In the original clarification it was pretty clear. G15 keyboard and similar is ok for simple stuff, but as soon as you figure out how to write fancy enough piece of code for it to "mine" (or whaever else you can do in eve) for you while you just watch without having to push buttons it's against EULA. No automation allowed.
So in a nutshell recorded mouse movements and clicks are quite forbidden. Recorded strings of keystrokes are sort of bit gray, ok if it's 'short enough' but if the recorded string is longer than oh .. say 30 seconds .. minute it starts to wade into darker zones of gray until at some point it's considered automation and bannable. Where the particular GM snaps on you is probably somewhat individual and depends somewhat on the particular case of how you are using it exactly.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Seatec Astronomy
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Posted - 2010.12.24 14:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Carniflex
As far as multiboxing and so on goes, after reading over the both the long answer and the shorter one posted in this thread (the long answer is in the thread linked in OP) it seems to be relatively simple. You can run multiple accounts 'mirroring' you keyboard and mouse across all those accounts with the help of additional software or hardware. As soon as the software or hardware you use allows you to get up and go get a cup of coffee while the predetermined actions take place in game without your direct input it's bannable as it will allow in theory afk play.
This has been how I've always interpreted such rules in EvE and most other MMOs.
The really tricky part is that most ToSs state "the use of software that allows unattended gameplay is a violation.". So, if the software is capable of allowing unattended pay, regardless of whether you use that particular feature, it can be a violation (depending on interpretation.)
The GM post above seems to make allusion to that same issue.
KB Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.12.24 14:56:00 -
[27]
Bottom lines
Cannot modify the client any form shape or manner even if its only client side. Requires the actual keyboard input from you. Cannot operate without the direct keyboard input. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 1SEPT10
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