Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Shana Matika
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 12:18:00 -
[121] - Quote
Lilan Kahn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Lilan Kahn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Lilan Kahn wrote:how to mine and move minerals on the cheep and fast in 0.0.
MINE MINE MINE MINE
put up pos with ammo build arry and make bombs
move bombs to empire Not sure if serious. what you dont like a 16 to 1 compression ratio that use almost 10 x more minerals than a railgun ?, sure its not as good as the 20 to 1 ratio of rail guns but on the flip side it takes alot less time to fill a jf or seven, at max produktion of 1 bpo it takes you 30 hours to fill a jf, can you tell me the same with one railgun bpo ? You don't quite understand what "Extra Materials" mean, do you? i dont think you know how to build bombs so what ever bro.
I Think YOU don't realize that CCP some time ago noticed this aswell and moved a lot of the minerals to "extra material" on those BP's. Extramaterial is NOT returned when reprocessed. So all you get back from those are those in "Raw Materials" for perfect ME.
In this example for Trit: 11.000 in raw materials and 1.403.572 in extra material. When you reprocess the Bomb you get 11.000 Trit back and loose the 1.403.572 Trit from extra materials - these trit is never seen again! |
Mara Rinn
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1788
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 12:28:00 -
[122] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:BTW - Did you read this part? "Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. "
Stuff be broken.
You keep missing the point: people in nullsec only mine ABC, mostly due to the difficulties associated with moving stuff around. It's easier to move a lot of ISK-value in a JF if you fill that JF will Megacyte and Zydrine instead of Tritanium and Pyerite. The value per cubic metre of ore is only a priority to hisec miners who can autopilot their freighters endlessly between their mining system and Jita. In nullsec, the priority is getting maximal value per jump. There is no autopiloting to Jita in nullsec.
It is not the value of ABC versus Velspar and Scordite that is the issue here. Your thinking is broken. Nullsec folks will keep mining ABC until the cows come home, or until 1 unit of Megacyte approaches 1 unit of Pyerite in value. The crazy part is that they then export that material to hisec, use some of it for mineral compression, then import it back to nullsec in the form of manufactured items. That freighter load of T1 modules is then reprocessed to form about 40 freighter loads of materials.
With all ores being spawned in limitless supply and the risk of nullsec mining being kept low by NAP/NIP trains and blue lists longer than Santa's list of nice children, you can expect ABC to drop to a fraction of the value of Scordite or Pyrox. This will happen simply because one freighter load of Megacyte is worth far more than one freighter load of Pyerite.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Velicitia
Open Designs
1131
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 12:30:00 -
[123] - Quote
Shana Matika wrote:
In this example for Trit: 11.000 in raw materials and 1.403.572 in extra material. When you reprocess the Bomb you get 11.000 Trit back and loose the 1.403.572 Trit from extra materials - these trit is never seen again!
shhhhh, let them do dumb things |
Pipa Porto
846
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 22:50:00 -
[124] - Quote
Lilan Kahn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Lilan Kahn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Lilan Kahn wrote:how to mine and move minerals on the cheep and fast in 0.0.
MINE MINE MINE MINE
put up pos with ammo build arry and make bombs
move bombs to empire Not sure if serious. what you dont like a 16 to 1 compression ratio that use almost 10 x more minerals than a railgun ?, sure its not as good as the 20 to 1 ratio of rail guns but on the flip side it takes alot less time to fill a jf or seven, at max produktion of 1 bpo it takes you 30 hours to fill a jf, can you tell me the same with one railgun bpo ? You don't quite understand what "Extra Materials" mean, do you? i dont think you know how to build bombs so what ever bro.
Sure thing bro. You ever wonder why you end up with a smaller pile of minerals in Jita than you packed into those bombs? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
88
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 22:12:00 -
[125] - Quote
Null sec is more dangerous than High sec, however the idea that living far away in the middle of nowhere guarantees safety is horse crap.
The best mining is done on the front, under the supervision of 200+ Alliance members, because when theirs any kind of camp fleet there's always a assload of jumpy PvP pilots to handle it. |
Fannie Hardbottom
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 13:17:00 -
[126] - Quote
Great.. yet another thread where half of you don't know crap... a few less than half of you haven't figured out yet you don't know crap... and the one or two original thinkers are being ignored -- as usual.
And you still whine about why ABC's are in the gutter.
Priceless.
|
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
367
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 13:37:00 -
[127] - Quote
I'd think the reason for this is more to do with botters being banned than anything to do with drone regions.
I remember seeing heaps of empire botters for the past several years, trit being in huge demand for all those supers during the great super building phase of a year ago.
They likely chased all the empire miners out of the industry - due to price - and now there are few left to fill the gap, add in more delicious 0.0 mining prospects bringing what miners are left in the game to 0.0 and not empire, and you have needs not being met for low-ends.
I dare say righting the market might even take months or years to fix.
CCP hasn't been terribly smart in their additions to the game in the past, now everyone is paying for it.
Add to this the failures of the current CSM to "make mining better" and you have a malfunctioning economy that noone really cares about. CSM7 Skype Leak
|
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
125
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 13:43:00 -
[128] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:Null sec is more dangerous than High sec, however the idea that living far away in the middle of nowhere guarantees safety is horse crap.
The best mining is done on the front, under the supervision of 200+ Alliance members, because when theirs any kind of camp fleet there's always a assload of jumpy PvP pilots to handle it.
The thinking behind that is that it weeds out the lazy hunters.
Goonwaffe is now recruiting feel free to message me in game for information about joining! |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 18:46:00 -
[129] - Quote
To me this seems like introducing the McCormick reaper in the Dust Bowl. We start off having lost a significant source of ore and minerals driving the cost up. Then you introduce vastly superior methods of collecting the ore resulting in a surge of the goods. this is what you are seeing, market turmoil. Exasperating the issue is the perceived and rightful danger nullsec brings. Many miners are not interested in needing to protect themselves and would rather be left alone. At the same time the map blotches do not do much to encourage these miners to join them. Thus you have a massive workforce in hisec, with little interest in going to low. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 12:08:00 -
[130] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:To me this seems like introducing the McCormick reaper in the Dust Bowl. We start off having lost a significant source of ore and minerals driving the cost up. Then you introduce vastly superior methods of collecting the ore resulting in a surge of the goods. this is what you are seeing, market turmoil. Exasperating the issue is the perceived and rightful danger nullsec brings. Many miners are not interested in needing to protect themselves and would rather be left alone. At the same time the map blotches do not do much to encourage these miners to join them. Thus you have a massive workforce in hisec, with little interest in going to low.
If there is such a huge workforce in high sec, why is scordite worth so damn much then? Is it still beating all but one ore? It was a few day ago. |
|
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
123
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 15:44:00 -
[131] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
Are you perhaps meaning 11th best? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
123
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 15:47:00 -
[132] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:To me this seems like introducing the McCormick reaper in the Dust Bowl. We start off having lost a significant source of ore and minerals driving the cost up. Then you introduce vastly superior methods of collecting the ore resulting in a surge of the goods. this is what you are seeing, market turmoil. Exasperating the issue is the perceived and rightful danger nullsec brings. Many miners are not interested in needing to protect themselves and would rather be left alone. At the same time the map blotches do not do much to encourage these miners to join them. Thus you have a massive workforce in hisec, with little interest in going to low.
If that was the case there would be a shortage of high ends, not low ends. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
123
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 15:55:00 -
[133] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:La Nariz wrote:Cap James Tkirk wrote:[quote=Joshua Lonestar]So come mine in high sec? Problem solved?
How about instead of tears of whine whenever something doesnt go your way you adapt, improvise and ovecome? If you spent as much effort crying as you did adapting to changes you would be sitting back comfortable in a high sec belt making fat wallets.
Or you'd realize this^^^^^^^ Money maker or not is beyond the issue at hand. The problem is that highsec mining has far less risk and far more reward than nullsec mining. The whole crying argument is crap here too because whining on the forums is the premier tactic of highsec miners, I'm fighting fire with fire. Then quit mining in Null and mine in HS. Once enough people do this, HS mining income will decrease and Nullsec mining income will increase. Once the rest of the Drone poo stockpiles have been burned through, nothing will be affecting relative mining income other than the amount of mining done in each area.
Other than what ccp decids minerals are used for. They broke mineral balance forever when they introduced cap ships.
|
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 19:15:00 -
[134] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Other than what ccp decids minerals are used for. They broke mineral balance forever when they introduced cap ships.
I'm still boggling at 13 ISK per unit pyerite. I can remember back when pye was going for about 4 ISK per unit. Scord went uncollected in belts because it wasn't worth the trouble of mining it. Now? Scord and Plag get cleaned out of belts and Veld gets left. (Which is stupid, at least in hisec mining ops; Veld is still one of the best ores in the game. Always has been; always will be.)
I'm not sure what tweaks CCP made to the manufacturing mineral requirements of the various ships and modules, but I do know that you can now make decent money by mining, and that's a nice change.
|
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 23:31:00 -
[135] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Doddy wrote:Other than what ccp decids minerals are used for. They broke mineral balance forever when they introduced cap ships. I'm still boggling at 13 ISK per unit pyerite. I can remember back when pye was going for about 4 ISK per unit. Scord went uncollected in belts because it wasn't worth the trouble of mining it. Now? Scord and Plag get cleaned out of belts and Veld gets left. (Which is stupid, at least in hisec mining ops; Veld is still one of the best ores in the game. Always has been; always will be.) I'm not sure what tweaks CCP made to the manufacturing mineral requirements of the various ships and modules, but I do know that you can now make decent money by mining, and that's a nice change.
The way I see it, many people know scordite is a top value but won't understand veld also is. Something to do with it being the most basic ore or something. People would mine Pyro instead of vend even when veld was worth more. |
FeAKz
Ship vs Rock
109
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 01:16:00 -
[136] - Quote
Let's kill all high sec miners!
Death to the miners!
Oh no! Empire ore is so expensive! Why?
Oh my! Veldspar costs lots now! Why?!
Some people are completely oblivious to cause and effect. Have fun bitching about Ore prices while I rake in lots of ISK while AFK. Baw. :'( |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
46
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 03:00:00 -
[137] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?
About a week ago, I read in a wiki that the initial mineral prices followed a x4 cost progression. Tritanium was meant to be 2 ISK p/u, Pyerite 8 ISK p/u, Mexallon 32 ISK p/u, Isogen 128 ISK p/u, Nocxium 512 ISK p/u, and so forth.
Based on those values, it should be possible to calculate the ore-values-per-m3 as CCP intended them to be, and use that as a powerful objective argument for how skewed the game has become, relative to CCP's original vision.
I have a spreadsheet set up to calculate the value for most of the low-end ores.
|
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
46
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 03:15:00 -
[138] - Quote
Salpad wrote:
About a week ago, I read in a wiki that the initial mineral prices followed a x4 cost progression. Tritanium was meant to be 2 ISK p/u, Pyerite 8 ISK p/u, Mexallon 32 ISK p/u, Isogen 128 ISK p/u, Nocxium 512 ISK p/u, and so forth.
Based on those values, it should be possible to calculate the ore-values-per-m3 as CCP intended them to be, and use that as a powerful objective argument for how skewed the game has become, relative to CCP's original vision.
I have a spreadsheet set up to calculate the value for most of the low-end ores.
I just added the missing mid-end'ish mineral types:
Veld: 63 Scord: 105 plag:115 pyrox: 125 omber:b 143 jaspet: 163 kernite: 164 hemorphite: 181 hedbergite: 202
So that's the value progression CCP had in mind. That's the rough shape they wanted to emerge. It is blatantly obvious to everyone who isn't a drooling ****** that what CCP intended was for the ore types that occur in 1.0 and 0.9 belts to tend to be worth less per m3 than the rarer ore types that occur in 0.6 and 0.5 belts.
And no doubt if one continues this project into the high-end ores, Gneiss, Arkonor and so forth, one will find that the trend continues, with the intended values per m3 ending up at well over 200.
|
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
46
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 03:41:00 -
[139] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:The simple fix is to just double or tripple the quantity of rare minerals needed to build things... That would fix the problem immediately.
Yes.
Keep in mind, I'm not saying things were good 3-4 years ago and CCP should bring those times back. Maybe that's what the OP was saying. What I'm saying is that EVE's ore/mineral economy is ****ed, and it has been ****ed for a long time. That which emerges differs starkly from the kind fo shape that CCP wished to have emerge.
They didn't have a specific thing in mind, that they wanted to emerge, but they did blatantly obviously want a kind of general trend, a pattern'ish thing, to emerge, about Veldspar being worth markedly less than Hedbergite or Omber. That has failed to emerge. It has failed loudly.
Here's my suggestion:
1. Drop the two more valuable ore subtypes, the 105% and 110% ones. Phase them our slowly. Then introduce a new rarer 25% subtype with a different name. Having to learn 2 specific subtypes per ore type is hard. It's much easier to just discern between ore that is named and ore that is not named - then you know which roids to suck on first.
2. Define some mineral types as needing more demand, others as needing less demand. Tritanium is a good candiate for "less demand". State out loud that every 2 months for the foreseeable future, all mineral requirements for all existing and future BPO and BPC will be adjusted upwards or downwards by 5% or 10% or even 15%. The stated trend for Tritanium might be downwards 10%, for instance, and upwards 15% for Nocxium. Each trend to go on indefinitely until CCP gives notice about each trend zeroing.
That's a one time thing, that I want CCP to do once, in order to achieve ore type balance, so that high-sec ores become worth notably less than low-sec and no-sec ores. Once a very rough balance is achived (as opposed to the extreme absence of balance that we have now), probably after a year or two, CCP can stop and will never need to do this again.
I want this as an admission from CCP that that which emeges is not of good quality, and that they realize they need to fix things in order to achieve emergent gameplay that makes logical sense, i.e. low ISK/hour for low-risk kinds of spaces, and high ISK/hour for high-risk kinds of spaces.
|
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
202
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 04:06:00 -
[140] - Quote
I am not going to argue whether or not Mineral m3 is skewed. I don't think that's the point, or a good actual metric for this. I will however say that There are a great many things that CCP has valued initially and has since long gone off some other way. Do not be surprised, CCP is attempting to see what the market will do.
Ex 1. Moon Goo ~~ Technium base price 64 isk/u ~~ Thuluim Base price 256 isk/u Ex 2. Pos Fuel components ~~ Robotics Base price 5,000 isk/u ~~ Enriched Uranium Base Price 6,500 isk/u Ex 3. Ore ~~ Veldspar base price 60.06 isk per m/3 (base price of 2,000 isk per refine unit, 333 veld units per refine, 0.1 m/3 /unit) ~~ Bistot base price 653.865 isk per m/3 (base price of 2,092,368 isk per refine unit, 200 bist units per refine, 16m/3 /unit)
yes this is what they had in mind, realize however that the mineral market has been up and down quite a bit in the past few years, Other things that CCP had not intended were happening and they made moves fairly recently to change them. The market has still not completely recovered from the last significant changes.
Last time i remember mineral prices being inline with hat CCP had intended, suicideing insured Rokhs was profitable which they had not intended.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
|
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
204
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 04:08:00 -
[141] - Quote
Salpad wrote: Here's my suggestion:
I do not know what this is, but it is so terrible i am in awe. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
123
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 15:02:00 -
[142] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs? About a week ago, I read in a wiki that the initial mineral prices followed a x4 cost progression. Tritanium was meant to be 2 ISK p/u, Pyerite 8 ISK p/u, Mexallon 32 ISK p/u, Isogen 128 ISK p/u, Nocxium 512 ISK p/u, and so forth. Based on those values, it should be possible to calculate the ore-values-per-m3 as CCP intended them to be, and use that as a powerful objective argument for how skewed the game has become, relative to CCP's original vision. I have a spreadsheet set up to calculate the value for most of the low-end ores.
Those are not the original values, they are far more recent values used in insurance. The initial values that the game started with (and which was enforced by npc buy orders at first) were;
Tritanium - 1 isk Pyerite - 4 isk Mexallon - 16 isk Isogen - 64 isk Nocxium - 256 isk Zydrine - 1024 isk Megacite - 4096 isk
And the prices were relatively near this for a long long time. When i actually mined back in 2005 or whatever omber was the big deal because isogen had broken the 80 isk barrier.
Easy access to high ends through 0.0 colonisation, drone region addition etc along with the massive need of low ends for cap/super cap proliferation has broken this completely.
|
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
97
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 22:09:00 -
[143] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Salpad wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs? About a week ago, I read in a wiki that the initial mineral prices followed a x4 cost progression. Tritanium was meant to be 2 ISK p/u, Pyerite 8 ISK p/u, Mexallon 32 ISK p/u, Isogen 128 ISK p/u, Nocxium 512 ISK p/u, and so forth. Based on those values, it should be possible to calculate the ore-values-per-m3 as CCP intended them to be, and use that as a powerful objective argument for how skewed the game has become, relative to CCP's original vision. I have a spreadsheet set up to calculate the value for most of the low-end ores. Those are not the original values, they are far more recent values used in insurance (accounting for the increased value of low ends). The initial values that the game started with (and which was enforced by npc buy orders at first) were; Tritanium - 1 isk Pyerite - 4 isk Mexallon - 16 isk Isogen - 64 isk Nocxium - 256 isk Zydrine - 1024 isk Megacite - 4096 isk And the prices were relatively near this for a long long time. When i actually mined back in 2005 or whatever omber was the big deal because isogen had broken the 80 isk barrier. Zydrine was the first real bottleneck, it pushed 3k at one point iirc. Easy access to high ends through 0.0 colonisation, drone region addition etc along with the massive need of low ends for cap/super cap proliferation has broken this completely. So trit is 6 times its initial value, pyr and mex 3-4 times their initial value, iso and nocx 1.5-2 times their initial value and zydrine/magacyte half thier initial value. Broken? hell yes.
I say it is not broken. The demand for those minerals decides the price vs the cost to get them for yourself. Everything is included in this calculation by the market itself. How tedious the mining is, how dangerous the mining is, how far the minerals need to be moved, how many are available for sale vs the volume bought daily. Also several off site mining support web pages track the value of each mineral and ore on a daily basis per region. Miners that mine only to sell ore, do mostly mine the most valuable ore on that day and bring it to market. They get paid according to the demand, ie someone wants it bad enough to pay for it vs mining it for themselves.
Now lately I have seen more mined out belts in high sec than ever before. All of that high sec ore is going to feed somebodies demand. Sooner or later the extra high sec ore being mined will saturate the demand. Price will adjust after that happens.
Also when you say it is broken because trit is 6 times its original value and zydrine and megacyte are half their original values means only that you have observed that zydrine and megacyte are way over supplied and way over mined as compared to trit.
The market uses ore as needed for the production of goods that sell and or are used by the producers. The market is not needing as much megacyte and zydrine as is being supplied.
A group can try to increase demand of these minerals by creating wars that require more ships to be built however the demand for high sec ore will rise as well to meet increased production demands.
A better solution may be to reduce supply of the null sec ores til demand heats up and the prices rise. That way the high sec ores demand does not increase and those prices remain stable by comparrison. Controll of that issue is completely up to those that live in null space. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
126
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 14:00:00 -
[144] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Doddy wrote:Salpad wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs? About a week ago, I read in a wiki that the initial mineral prices followed a x4 cost progression. Tritanium was meant to be 2 ISK p/u, Pyerite 8 ISK p/u, Mexallon 32 ISK p/u, Isogen 128 ISK p/u, Nocxium 512 ISK p/u, and so forth. Based on those values, it should be possible to calculate the ore-values-per-m3 as CCP intended them to be, and use that as a powerful objective argument for how skewed the game has become, relative to CCP's original vision. I have a spreadsheet set up to calculate the value for most of the low-end ores. Those are not the original values, they are far more recent values used in insurance (accounting for the increased value of low ends). The initial values that the game started with (and which was enforced by npc buy orders at first) were; Tritanium - 1 isk Pyerite - 4 isk Mexallon - 16 isk Isogen - 64 isk Nocxium - 256 isk Zydrine - 1024 isk Megacite - 4096 isk And the prices were relatively near this for a long long time. When i actually mined back in 2005 or whatever omber was the big deal because isogen had broken the 80 isk barrier. Zydrine was the first real bottleneck, it pushed 3k at one point iirc. Easy access to high ends through 0.0 colonisation, drone region addition etc along with the massive need of low ends for cap/super cap proliferation has broken this completely. So trit is 6 times its initial value, pyr and mex 3-4 times their initial value, iso and nocx 1.5-2 times their initial value and zydrine/magacyte half thier initial value. Broken? hell yes. I say it is not broken. The demand for those minerals decides the price vs the cost to get them for yourself. Everything is included in this calculation by the market itself. How tedious the mining is, how dangerous the mining is, how far the minerals need to be moved, how many are available for sale vs the volume bought daily. Also several off site mining support web pages track the value of each mineral and ore on a daily basis per region. Miners that mine only to sell ore, do mostly mine the most valuable ore on that day and bring it to market. They get paid according to the demand, ie someone wants it bad enough to pay for it vs mining it for themselves. Now lately I have seen more mined out belts in high sec than ever before. All of that high sec ore is going to feed somebodies demand. Sooner or later the extra high sec ore being mined will saturate the demand. Price will adjust after that happens. Also when you say it is broken because trit is 6 times its original value and zydrine and megacyte are half their original values means only that you have observed that zydrine and megacyte are way over supplied and way over mined as compared to trit. The market uses ore as needed for the production of goods that sell and or are used by the producers. The market is not needing as much megacyte and zydrine as is being supplied. A group can try to increase demand of these minerals by creating wars that require more ships to be built however the demand for high sec ore will rise as well to meet increased production demands. A better solution may be to reduce supply of the null sec ores til demand heats up and the prices rise. That way the high sec ores demand does not increase and those prices remain stable by comparrison. Controll of that issue is completely up to those that live in null space.
All that you say is true, except of course that we are working within ccps parameters. They set the mineral values for ships and mods, not the players. Ccp added demand for low ends (capitals, supers), and continue to do so. If the next fotm class of ships they intoroduce are high end heavy that will adjust the balance (will need a lot to make up for caps though . Due to the rather dubious way ships are built demand has no real effect. Most ships use the same sort of ratios of each mineral so customer choice has little impact (this apoc made of trit is too expensive i will buy this geddon made of megacyte). And if you are going to get a cap ship you gonna pay for alot of low ends whatever.
I am also pretty sure i covered your other point with "colonisation of null sec"....
|
Gorinia Sanford
Sons of Russ
53
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 18:33:00 -
[145] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Idris Helion wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore. It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing. People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it. But in null, at least in my experience, mineral prices are compared to Jita prices. So the value of ore is still imbalanced wrt the system CCP created. But yes, most veld mining I do is because I need the trit but I've bought a bunch of it as well. Supply needs arent really the issue though. It's the profit incentive system. Did CCP want players to be able to make more isk per hour mining in high sec or low/null? Should increased risk, training, and logistics earn more or less? Perhaps this is temporary but like I said above, I didn't move to null to mine veldspar. Im a maxed miner with a rorqual boost. I did that to earn more from mining in null than in highsec. This is how the system is designed right?
It's not a matter of what's right, it's a matter of what works and what gives the most profit. It's also called "Improvise, adapt, overcome." |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
101
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 22:45:00 -
[146] - Quote
Doddy wrote: All that you say is true, except of course that we are working within ccps parameters. They set the mineral values for ships and mods, not the players. Ccp added demand for low ends (capitals, supers), and continue to do so. If the next fotm class of ships they intoroduce are high end heavy that will adjust the balance (will need a lot to make up for caps though . Due to the rather dubious way ships are built demand has no real effect. Most ships use the same sort of ratios of each mineral so customer choice has little impact (this apoc made of trit is too expensive i will buy this geddon made of megacyte). And if you are going to get a cap ship you gonna pay for alot of low ends whatever.
I am also pretty sure i covered your other point with "colonisation of null sec"....
Ok but the only ships (cap) ships that require a lot of low end minerals are not built in high sec anyway. So why are all of those low end minerals over suppling high sec? That only makes them cheaper. The bulk should stay where the production of cap ships are. Now that does a few things it makes them scarce in high sec and hard to reach. And drives the price up. Unless they are way oversupplied at the cap ship source as well?
Demand has a huge effect. If you are an industrialist demand plays a large role in your choice of shop locations. And not just for sales but for the entire supply chain including ores.
Again I can see why CCP set the cap ships to use a lot of low end ores because they are made there. Ships that are made in high sec use mostly high sec ores. But I am still talking about ratios. 100,000 trit is used for every 1 megacyte in the high sec market. If you supply to that market 100,000 megacyte then in order to use it up we need 10,000,000,000 trit. That is where the demand comes in. Suppling enough high sec ores for the amount of low end. There is a mismatch right now in that way too many low ends are waiting to be used. Maybe a cap ship war will use them up? Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
ashley Eoner
59
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 16:56:00 -
[147] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs? . The great blue wall and complete safety in null means the risk is no longer even remotely there for most alliance members. So why should we artificially pump up the reward?
I still stand by my earlier prediction that trit and pyerite prices are going to continue to fall. Until we know where the ground level is for those ores we cannot really begin to discuss balancing. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
400
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 17:13:00 -
[148] - Quote
Gorinia Sanford wrote:Zifrian wrote:Idris Helion wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore. It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing. People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it. But in null, at least in my experience, mineral prices are compared to Jita prices. So the value of ore is still imbalanced wrt the system CCP created. But yes, most veld mining I do is because I need the trit but I've bought a bunch of it as well. Supply needs arent really the issue though. It's the profit incentive system. Did CCP want players to be able to make more isk per hour mining in high sec or low/null? Should increased risk, training, and logistics earn more or less? Perhaps this is temporary but like I said above, I didn't move to null to mine veldspar. Im a maxed miner with a rorqual boost. I did that to earn more from mining in null than in highsec. This is how the system is designed right? It's not a matter of what's right, it's a matter of what works and what gives the most profit. It's also called "Improvise, adapt, overcome." If all things were equal, I would agree with you. Fact is they aren't. There is no Arkonor in highsec. The skills are easier to train for empire ores over null ores. The materials to build ships and the ships that are available are not provided by players. It is ALL provided by CCP. Therefore, CCP needs to balance the ores.
This game is great for it's market system but don't for a second think it is a reflection of free market economics. All of those arguments really don't hold the weight people keep repeating them think they do. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
63
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 17:59:00 -
[149] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:great for it's market system and supply and demand but don't for a second think it is a reflection of free market economics. All of those arguments really don't hold the weight people keep repeating them think they do.
EVE is not a real economy. It's a game. CCP's motivation is to keep the game dynamic and exciting; it's not to provide optimum economic outcomes. (Which is to say: EVE's economy would explode if CONCORD's reach extended into lowsec and null -- noobs would flood the outlying systems. But it would kill the game.)
Many things in New Eden are "magical". Asteroids, planets, and moons magically replenish their resources after a period of time. Most ships do not use fuel. Ships do not break down or have mechanical problems. (Though they are subject to environmental effects.) Manufacturing doesn't require a huge amount of infrastructure: all you need is a blueprint, the right minerals, and an open manufacturing slot in a station.
That being said: EVE's economy is still the most "real" economy of any game I'm aware of, and it is subject to the vararies of market dynamics far more than any other game I can think of. CCP may have to intervene from time to time to restore game-balance, but overall EVE's economy is about as "real" as any game economy can get.
|
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 22:50:00 -
[150] - Quote
Zifrian wrote: If all things were equal, I would agree with you. Fact is they aren't. There is no Arkonor in highsec. The skills are easier to train for empire ores over null ores. The materials to build ships and the ships that are available are not provided by players. It is ALL provided by CCP. Therefore, CCP needs to balance the ores.
This game is great for it's market system and supply and demand but don't for a second think it is a reflection of free market economics. All of those arguments really don't hold the weight people keep repeating them think they do.
So you do not think the markets in eve work? What do you think would happen if every industrial builder mined all of their own minerals? I.E. Nobody bought any minerals off of the market ever. When you mine ore who do you sell it too? You refine it then put the mineral up for sale? Or do you dump it on the highest buy order? Well if every builder mined their own their would be no buy orders. And who would buy the sell orders? What happens when you stuff sits on the market and nobody buys it? Then the next guys puts his stuff up for sale below your price right. Still no sale. Then a third guy puts his up for sale below that. Now the original guy drops his price below the third guys to get first sale. But still no buyers.
Eve has a very real economy. But it is based upon time savers mostly. People will pay quite a bit of premium if it saves them a bit of time. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |