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RagingRifter
Minmatar The Dark Space Initiative
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Posted - 2010.12.30 07:07:00 -
[1]
yes i know the title is misleading but it holds true. all the threads of black ops that are updating are from 2009. are black ops worth it? give me feed back on them. what you really need in order to make them effective
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Eva Valeer
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Posted - 2010.12.30 07:40:00 -
[2]
You are being seduced by their item description, just forget about them. Like many things in EvE the execution doesn't live up to the concept.
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Conor Todaki
ASTER MINER
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Posted - 2010.12.30 10:03:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Eva Valeer You are being seduced by their item description, just forget about them. Like many things in EvE the execution doesn't live up to the concept.
qft
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.30 10:04:00 -
[4]
The Widow got a new look, does that count?
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Striker4ever
Gallente The Ostrogoths Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.30 11:38:00 -
[5]
ull find in 0.0 black ops are very deadly. the ability to send one or two guys into a hostile system, find some poor lad or even a group of them, light a covert cyno off grid so they dont even know ur that close to them...the last thing they remember was local spiked
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.30 11:56:00 -
[6]
Originally by: RagingRifter give me feed back on them. what you really need in order to make them effective
A cloaky hauler with fuel, a few people that can use the covert cyno on their bombers or recons, and a lot of bombers, some recons and strategic cruisers.
Box contents are pretty much exactly as advertised, its all about stealth insertion and extraction. Dont expect a free tactical nuke to come in the box, it isnt there.
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Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.01.01 06:01:00 -
[7]
They are still pre nerfed from years ago and in top requests to csm., Need Cov ops cloak and some buffs to dps, fitting, and an apology )~ Happy new years countdown, Cheers
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Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.01.01 12:50:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Shepard Book They are still pre nerfed from years ago and in top requests to csm., Need Cov ops cloak and some buffs to dps, fitting, and an apology )~ Happy new years countdown, Cheers
I bolder the part where it would turn the ship from "I could use a bit of a buff." to "Hi. I'm an over powered solo pwn mobile!"
A coverts ops cloak is not the answer you want.
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Marcus Henik
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Posted - 2011.01.01 15:00:00 -
[9]
meh, I think that cov ops cloak is all bo really needs, they cant stand up to their t1 counterparts, and tbh considering the skill intensity required to fly one, combined with the cost of the hull they should be pwnmobiles. afterall consider what a equal amount of time spent training pirate faction bs can do.
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.01 17:02:00 -
[10]
I think having two versions would work quite well. One version with the standard cloak, and an expanded fuel bay and bridging capability, and one with a CovOps cloak and a smaller fuel bay with no bridging ability. There would be legitimate uses for both, I'm sure.
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Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.01.01 20:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Shepard Book They are still pre nerfed from years ago and in top requests to csm., Need Cov ops cloak and some buffs to dps, fitting, and an apology )~ Happy new years countdown, Cheers
I bolder the part where it would turn the ship from "I could use a bit of a buff." to "Hi. I'm an over powered solo pwn mobile!"
A coverts ops cloak is not the answer you want.
It is the answer many should demand. Look how long the stealth bomber did not work well without Cov cloak. The same strategy should be available to a much more expensive toy. It is among the most expensive non capital ships to lose. It should get better.
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Bella Solo
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Posted - 2011.01.02 05:33:00 -
[12]
They are great... for bridging.
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2011.01.02 05:48:00 -
[13]
You know, I never looked at it too closely so I had always just kind of assumed the Black Ops had access to the Covert Cloak. So there was always a little voice in the back of my head going "Why would people thing a battleship sized stealth bomber is so horrible?"
This explains so much of the prevailing opinion of the ship. ______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.01.02 08:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shepard Book
It is the answer many should demand. Look how long the stealth bomber did not work well without Cov cloak.
The stealth bomber does not have the same mobility as a black ops battleship has.
Covert ops cloaks are not the answer, more damage is not the answer, more tank is not the answer. The answer is something like bigger fuel bays, better jump range or something like that.
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2011.01.02 09:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Originally by: Shepard Book
It is the answer many should demand. Look how long the stealth bomber did not work well without Cov cloak.
The stealth bomber does not have the same mobility as a black ops battleship has.
Covert ops cloaks are not the answer, more damage is not the answer, more tank is not the answer. The answer is something like bigger fuel bays, better jump range or something like that.
Since haulers can come along a bigger fuel bay is not needed. Since it can jump a few systems at a time a larger jump range is not needed. Covert ops cloak is what it needs. What good is a jamming Widow if it can't follow the troops it supports through a cloaky warpin? It's stupid to not have COC on a BO. Until that time BO will always be garbage. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.01.02 09:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Schalac What good is a jamming Widow if it can't follow the troops it supports through a cloaky warpin?
Jumping it into the fight is faster, doesnt give away its presence in local.
Have you even been on a black ops operation before, since you seem to think you know about the problems with fuel bays and bridge range?
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2011.01.02 09:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Originally by: Schalac What good is a jamming Widow if it can't follow the troops it supports through a cloaky warpin?
Jumping it into the fight is faster, doesnt give away its presence in local.
Have you even been on a black ops operation before, since you seem to think you know about the problems with fuel bays and bridge range?
Because you can jump every engagement right? Maybe in a perfect world you can just bridge and wait for the call of you to jump in and jam someone. EVE is not that world. You need the ability to warp cloaked for all BOs to be used more and make them worth their pricetag, both ISK and SP wise. I mean what is the point of a BO ship if you have to show your presence everytime you want to warp on or off grid? SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.01.02 09:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Schalac I mean what is the point of a BO ship if you have to show your presence everytime you want to warp on or off grid?
The point is to have a battleship that does appear out of nowhere, with no option for the enemy to scout you. Why you would even want to give your presence away in local if you plan to commit a 700mill asset that is made out of paper is beyond me really.
If you want a jammer that warps around cloaked, there is the falcon, it does that job a lot better than the widow for a fraction of the price and training involved. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.02 11:10:00 -
[19]
your presence has already been shown in local, so meh to cov ops cloak, that is just really not needed. and if you need to warp in on them and then decloak well, I just have to question why you are using a blackops and not a recon.
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Dkamanus
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Posted - 2011.01.02 18:48:00 -
[20]
I think the idea behind black ops was to make hit-and-run attacks against targets that are clearly vulnerable, then use a Covert Jump portal and leave the system. The idea as people said is that if local is considered intel, then having your name showing the whole time means they must be extra careful, for they know there are coverts.
The idea would be to make, unless my concept of it is wrong, if so I apologize, hot-drops in juice targets that stay behind enemy lines, shot a few salvos (I think obviously more than 1 BOs would make that, say, 10 of them, Alphaing something important real quick), ECMing and causing momentarily chaos then jumping back via jump portal.
If this is the idea, then I don't see that much room for improvement. I can be very wrong...
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Dkamanus
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Posted - 2011.01.02 18:53:00 -
[21]
Just an Idea...
Seems like cloaking can't be done once targeted. Why not make Black Ops Ships the only type of ship that can recloak once targeted? It would be of great use in the battlefield this way, since you can keep coming and going all the time. Keep the paper like thing of them, just make possible for them to recloak. Things like the 2km aproach and decloak thing would still be valid, but at least the ship would be much more useful if you come to think of it...
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Axemaster
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Posted - 2011.01.02 22:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dkamanus Just an Idea...
Seems like cloaking can't be done once targeted. Why not make Black Ops Ships the only type of ship that can recloak once targeted? It would be of great use in the battlefield this way, since you can keep coming and going all the time. Keep the paper like thing of them, just make possible for them to recloak. Things like the 2km aproach and decloak thing would still be valid, but at least the ship would be much more useful if you come to think of it...
No, because that would make the thing practically invincible.
I support adding covert cloaking capability. It's not a whole lot stronger than 1-2 stealth bombers in combat, so it wouldn't be overpowered. Especially considering its relative weakness and high cost.
Actually in terms of usefulness/cost ratio it's probably the worst ship in the game, except perhaps electronic attack frigates, which as we know are the least used ship in the game.
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Ephemeron
The Dirty Dozen
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Posted - 2011.01.02 23:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Striker4ever ull find in 0.0 black ops are very deadly. the ability to send one or two guys into a hostile system, find some poor lad or even a group of them, light a covert cyno off grid so they dont even know ur that close to them...the last thing they remember was local spiked
That doesn't make black ops deadly, that makes hot drop mechanics deadly.
Hot drops are extremely overpowered right now. They completely break all strategic planning and continuity of fleet movements. Any ship with a cyno can be just as deadly, even a Kestrel
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2011.01.03 01:37:00 -
[24]
I'm hoping somebody can walk me through this. Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm having a really hard time understanding what dystopian future CCP was trying to save us from by not giving this thing Covert Cloaks.
Now, keep in mind neither I nor anybody I know can pilot this, so everything I know is poorly worded tooltips and EFT warrioring.
So, the differences between cloaks seem to be that the Covert: -Doesn't penalize movement -Doesn't penalize targeting when dropping cloak -Allows warping while cloaked
Now, the Black Ops bonuses take care of movement and targeting (in fact, apparently the BO is faster while cloaked). Leaving the only thing the Black Ops can't do is warp while cloaked. What exactly does removing this ability prevent? Was the lack of a 6 second warning that a BO was about to hit grid causing CCP's internal testing team to wail and gnash their teeth? Were cloak-warping Redeemers kicking puppies? What part of the game am I forgetting which causes that ability to be a gamebreaking problem beyond that of hotdropping a dozen supercarriers? ______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Kelly Ardos
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Posted - 2011.01.03 03:52:00 -
[25]
Just an idea...
What if the BO ships were extremely specialized E-War boats, but beyond the current E-War system.
I see the possibility of giving them several systems 1) Comms Jammer: Allows Blackops ships to hide its self and its fleet from local channels. To prevent it from being overpowered or fleets only bringing one of them maybe make the bonus only work for squad or make it work only within a certain radius of the BO ship. This would make it use require a highly organized force with correct usage of alignment and scouting.
2) IFF Jammer: As the fleet moving with the BO ship can still be probed down allow the BO ship to with a certain radius mask what friendly ships show up as while probing. To prevent this from being too powerful make probes have a chance to see through the jammer, this would make larger fleets easier to spot. In addition say you set it so that you show up as Veldspar on the scanner the fleet could still be spotted by somebody paying attention as to why apparently a large group of Asteroids is moving. Obviously this will many times be written off as scan deviation.
3) Covert Ops Battlefield Managment Module: Allows Fleet members to see one another even while cloaked. This would allow cloaked fleets to not always be guessing if they are about to bump somebody out of cloak.
Re: Giving BOs Covert Ops cloaks In their current form I think that it would help however if the above new modules defined above are used I think it would not be needed as the IFF Jammer would prevent the ship from being scanned down too easily and they can always fit a standard cloak for cloaking while stationary.
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.03 04:04:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 03/01/2011 04:05:58 Some interesting ideas in the post above. I don't think that the specific ideas mentioned are necessarily the answer, but the Black Ops class definitely needs some sort of unique ability that makes it useful to bring along into combat, rather than just a luxury for lol-SB-roams.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2011.01.03 23:16:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 03/01/2011 23:18:45
Originally by: Luminos So, the differences between cloaks seem to be that the Covert: -Doesn't penalize movement -Doesn't penalize targeting when dropping cloak -Allows warping while cloaked
1st and 3rd items: correct. 2nd item: incorrect. Covert Ops Cloak halves scan resolution and has a 10-second base sensor recalibration time. Max skills drops the delay to 5 seconds. Rigs can drop it to 3.x seconds.
Black Ops ships (and formerly, Stealth Bombers) got a role ability that eliminated the sensor recalibration delay, which was significant when SB's could only fit Improved Cloak II. I think they still get no recal delay even though they can fit the Covert Cloak now. The scan res nerf and recal delay are a less significant handicap for the Black Ops, because they already have a slow lock time due to being based on a BS hull.
In addition, the former Stealth Bombers and the current Black Ops had/have a velocity bonus while cloaked. This allows them to align for warp-out while cloaked, without using the MWD pulse. Which means they do not have to wait for the 10-second MWD pulse to complete. If it can cloak, the Panther can get into warp in 4 seconds. That's faster than a Vagabond. Even uncloaked, it is as fast and agile as a Hurricane.
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Ephemeron
The Dirty Dozen
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Posted - 2011.01.03 23:36:00 -
[28]
Giving Black Ops ability not to appear in local would certainly make it very desirable for roaming PvP
but letting it extend that ability to entire fleet would be overpowered. It would be better if CCP got off their furry carebear asses and nerfed local proper
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2011.01.04 01:46:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Luminos on 04/01/2011 01:46:02 Ahh, see.. this is why you should trust things you misread in EFT. Though from what I can see Covert Cloak doesn't hinder scan resolution. That still doesn't seem like a big deal. After all, if I really want to lock quickly with my Black Ops, I always have the option of sensor boosting to counter that negative.
So then the difference between Black Ops now, and Black Ops with Covert Cloak is this?: -Reduced scan resolution -Actually has to drop cloak to warp
I'm still not seeing the abusive behaviour that these two things prevent. ______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2011.01.04 03:29:00 -
[30]
Edited by: TimMc on 04/01/2011 03:34:09 Black Ops are pretty useless besides undocking and bridging a bunch of people.
IMO they need:
1) Covert ops cloak. Removal of the targeting delay bonus and movement bonus.
2) Change of focus from damage to perhaps light logistics, gang links or ewar boats. I don't mind something with a covert ops cloak having a nice t1 battleship buffer, but it should not have a bs damage.
My idealised version of black ops is something you only have 1 of in a recon gang. It jumps the fleet in, then jumps itself. It then can repair damage ships after battles, lay down ewar during battle and provide some racial ganglinks. Currently ewar fleets have to bring t3's if they want covert ops boosters, and they cannot use many links without becoming useless in fights.
eg. The Sin.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per skill level
Black Ops Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness and 3% bonus to effectiveness of Information Warfare Links per level
Role Bonus: 99% reduction in Warfare Link CPU need. Can fit 2 Warfare Link modules simultaneously.
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators, covert ops cloaks and covert jump portal generators.
edit:
eg The Panther
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise and Siege Launcher rate of fire and 10% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo missile velocity per level
Black Ops Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness and 3% bonus to effectiveness of Skirmish Warfare Links per level
Role Bonus: 99% reduction in Warfare Link CPU need. Can fit 2 Warfare Link modules simultaneously.
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators, covert ops cloaks and covert jump portal generators.
Note only 2 links.
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