Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 15:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
A simple and gentle rebalancing of ganglinks:
-Swap the T3/Fleet Command Ship bonus to ganglinks. -Create a sig bloom for active ganglinks, as on an MWD. Perhaps 500% to begin with, so that offgrid boosters can be probed down more easily. -Block boosting within POS shields.
Solves the problem of ganglink invulnerability, makes fleet command ships more viable, doesn't nerf T3s into the ground, and uses mechanisms that already exist within the game, which should hopefully make it cheap and easy to implement. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
218
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 15:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
You realize with a 500% sig bloom a week old alt could probe a linkboat down with 16 au probes? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Or they could do the rational thing and remove off grid boosting |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
309
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Or they could do the rational thing and remove off grid boosting
+1
Too many offgrid boosting alts posting suggestions on how to "balance" offgrind boosting. Offgrid boosting shouldn't exist at all. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
219
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Or they could do the rational thing and remove off grid boosting +1 Too many offgrid boosting alts posting suggestions on how to "balance" offgrind boosting. Offgrid boosting shouldn't exist at all.
Sure, if you want only giant fleets and gatecamps on highsec gates to have links. But boosting blobs and gatecamps is probably not what people want. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
310
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Or they could do the rational thing and remove off grid boosting +1 Too many offgrid boosting alts posting suggestions on how to "balance" offgrind boosting. Offgrid boosting shouldn't exist at all. Sure, if you want only giant fleets and gatecamps on highsec gates to have links. But boosting blobs and gatecamps is probably not what people want.
Ganglinks were meant precisely for fleets of a certain size.
They were not meant to be for "small gang assistance" or whatever rationalizations people come up with. They're bad for small gangs because they divide the playing field into those who have a gang link alt and those who don't. Removing them will make small gang play more competitive and that's good for the game. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
373
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote: Ganglinks were meant precisely for fleets of a certain size.
They were not meant to be for "small gang assistance" or whatever rationalizations people come up with. They're bad for small gangs because they divide the playing field into those who have a gang link alt and those who don't. Removing them will make small gang play more competitive and that's good for the game.
this.
See more and more "solo" f4ggots running around with a nearly unprobeable, interdiction nullified cloaky booster scout alt ahead, you cant realistically catch in time which matters. |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 18:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:You realize with a 500% sig bloom a week old alt could probe a linkboat down with 16 au probes?
Yes, yes I do. In fact that's the point. It creates a simple counter to what was otherwise a virtually invulnerable system. And yet it doesn't mean that flying a T3 booster is pointless, because an attentive pilot can still keep D-scan up, and can still look out for things warping in on him. It means that you have to pay attention to the booster, is all.
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Or they could do the rational thing and remove off grid boosting
I'm not sure that removing offgrid boosting really is the rational thing, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the whole system of grids is hopelessly flawed and unpredictable. One need only look at the "Grid Fu" guide to see that. Now it's not such a huge problem when it's just a behind the scenes mechanic that nobody is playing with, but to make it fundamental to boosts, and therefore to fleet fights in general, is to brings the mechanic centre stage, and it's really not in good enough condition for that.
Secondly, the removal of offgrid boosting would remove one of the main roles of T3s. A 3 link T3 is so crippled by the Command Processors and ganglinks that there's no way it can fit enough tank to be present on the battlefield. Maybe that wouldn't be the end of the world in gameplay terms, but it would be making a whole kind of subsystem effectively useless, which doesn't seem like an ideal solution. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 18:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:I'm not sure that removing offgrid boosting really is the rational thing, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the whole system of grids is hopelessly flawed and unpredictable. One need only look at the "Grid Fu" guide to see that. Now it's not such a huge problem when it's just a behind the scenes mechanic that nobody is playing with, but to make it fundamental to boosts, and therefore to fleet fights in general, is to brings the mechanic centre stage, and it's really not in good enough condition for that. Yes, I've heard there are some tricks how to "stretch" the grid - but never interested. Now maybe I would.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 18:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
As far as T3s being crippled because of the command processor, is that not the prime exapmle of tank vs gank, they were designed for use of 1 warfare link, any extra and u will sacriface tank. If you want to use multuple warfare links and have a tank, use a fleet command ship. Off grid boosting only promotes lazy game play, be it roams, fleet fights or mining ops |
|
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 18:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:As far as T3s being crippled because of the command processor, is that not the prime exapmle of tank vs gank, they were designed for use of 1 warfare link, any extra and u will sacriface tank. If you want to use multuple warfare links and have a tank, use a fleet command ship.
Well yes, people will use a command ship. And they won't use the T3 because it's twice the price and half as useful, with a roughly similar tank. Hence me saying that it would make the T3s virtually useless in the ganglink role.
Quote:Off grid boosting only promotes lazy game play, be it roams, fleet fights or mining ops
That's why I suggested the sig radius bloom. Can't be lazy if you have to check for probes every 20 seconds. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 18:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Any "fix" to off grid boosting other than removal is a fail |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 18:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Any "fix" to off grid boosting other than removal is a fail Why?
If they can be nerfed to the point where they are an advantage, but one that is not overwhelming, and can be easily countered, doesn't that just add another dimension to the combat in the game and make it more interesting? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 18:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Any "fix" to off grid boosting other than removal is a fail Why? If they can be nerfed to the point where they are an advantage, but one that is not overwhelming, and can be easily countered, doesn't that just add another dimension to the combat in the game and make it more interesting? All that means is small roams will be nerfed even more, they would now have to bring allong a probe ship which is one less combat ship, if they dont they could be at a severe disadvantage, best solution would be remove off grid boosting and make gangs that want links use battle crusiers, or command ships, or make a choice about there T3. |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 18:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Any "fix" to off grid boosting other than removal is a fail Why? If they can be nerfed to the point where they are an advantage, but one that is not overwhelming, and can be easily countered, doesn't that just add another dimension to the combat in the game and make it more interesting? All that means is small roams will be nerfed even more, they would now have to bring allong a probe ship which is one less combat ship, if they dont they could be at a severe disadvantage, best solution would be remove off grid boosting and make gangs that want links use battle crusiers, or command ships, or make a choice about there T3.
My thinking was that you'd have such a huge sig bloom that you wouldn't necessarily need a totally dedicated probe ship, just a ship fitted with combat probes. You might need a co-processor, but it doesn't ruin the fit.
Doesn't have to be 500% either. Could be 10,000% or 50%, just enough to make it easy to probe down, is my point.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 19:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
A expanded probe launcher uses 200 cpu, it would take up more than just one high slot and one low slot. It would about trash any not scanning ship |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 19:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:A expanded probe launcher uses 200 cpu, it would take up more than just one high slot and one low slot. It would about trash any not scanning ship
I thought that, but I've been looking a bit more closely, and you can fit it on quite a few ships without completely gimping it.
-Armor Hurricane can do it with about a 10-15% loss in raw power. -Arb can do it at the cost of its highslots and a rig slot. -BB can do it by using meta jammers. -HML Drake can do it for ~5kEHP and 120 DPS -All the Recons seem to be able to do it.
I mean yeah, you lose a fair bit off the fit, but not to the point where it's useless. I'd guess between 10 -20% of the fit's utility. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
374
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 19:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
removing offgrid boost is the only way to fix the situation. |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 19:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:removing offgrid boost is the only way to fix the situation.
That's a statement, not a reason. Why can't the situation be fixed without them being removed completely? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 20:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:A expanded probe launcher uses 200 cpu, it would take up more than just one high slot and one low slot. It would about trash any not scanning ship I thought that, but I've been looking a bit more closely, and you can fit it on quite a few ships without completely gimping it. -Armor Hurricane can do it with about a 10-15% loss in raw power. -Arb can do it at the cost of its highslots and a rig slot. -BB can do it by using meta jammers. -HML Drake can do it for ~5kEHP and 120 DPS -All the Recons seem to be able to do it. I mean yeah, you lose a fair bit off the fit, but not to the point where it's useless. I'd guess between 10 -20% of the fit's utility. This one is gonna be fun a Hurricane can fit a warfare link for a whopping 150 less cpu than a expanded probe launcher the drake can do the same thing an arb is pointless if it cannot usee energy neutralizers the BB, ok, but can it fit a cloak also? and the recons if they can it must be by having recon 5 or a non cloking recon, at which point it is kinda dangerous to try and probe a system. |
|
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 21:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:A expanded probe launcher uses 200 cpu, it would take up more than just one high slot and one low slot. It would about trash any not scanning ship I thought that, but I've been looking a bit more closely, and you can fit it on quite a few ships without completely gimping it. -Armor Hurricane can do it with about a 10-15% loss in raw power. -Arb can do it at the cost of its highslots and a rig slot. -BB can do it by using meta jammers. -HML Drake can do it for ~5kEHP and 120 DPS -All the Recons seem to be able to do it. I mean yeah, you lose a fair bit off the fit, but not to the point where it's useless. I'd guess between 10 -20% of the fit's utility. This one is gonna be fun a Hurricane can fit a warfare link for a whopping 150 less cpu than a expanded probe launcher the drake can do the same thing an arb is pointless if it cannot usee energy neutralizers the BB, ok, but can it fit a cloak also? and the recons if they can it must be by having recon 5 or a non cloking recon, at which point it is kinda dangerous to try and probe a system.
-What does the Hurricane or Drake's ability to fit a ganglink have to do with anything? -An Arb in a small gang isn't there for the neuts, it's there for the drone support and the TDs. -I wasn't aware that the cloak was an essential part of a BB. I wasn't even aware that it was a helpful module on a BB, given the scan res penalty. But yes, at the cost of a rig slot you can fit a cloak. -Recons are almost always flown with Recon V, in my experience. The ships are too dependent on their bonuses not to be. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 21:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
A probe launcher without a cloak is worthless, you WILL die. If i can fit a warfare link i dont give a damn about finding a off grid booster. Fact is no matter what way you cut it, off brid boosting needs to be removed. |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 21:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:A probe launcher without a cloak is worthless, you WILL die. If i can fit a warfare link i dont give a damn about finding a off grid booster. Fact is no matter what way you cut it, off brid boosting needs to be removed.
Those are some interesting ideas you've got there, but they don't make much sense. The idea that you will die while probing without a cloak, for example, may be true of a covops, because they're really squishy, but it's not true of other ships. Hell, it's not even true of a covops when it's in a gang that can provide it with warning of incoming dangers.
As for the ganglink thing, well, that seems to be more a lack of experience. You see, in a gang people have different roles. You can have ten battlecruisers in your gang, but that doesn't mean that all ten should fit ganglinks, even if they can. What usually happens is that one or two people fit the ganglinks, and the rest of the fleet have different roles, be it DPS, tackle, logistics, E-war, or in this case, hunting down the enemy ganglinks. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 22:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
An unbonused ship will take at minium 15 seconds to get the results by that time you could be tackled and taking damage, you think that everything will be ok while you take time out to probe down a ship, as for the battlecrusiers with gang links no not every one should run a link, that is kinda a given |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 22:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:An unbonused ship will take at minium 15 seconds to get the results by that time you could be tackled and taking damage,you think that everything will be ok while you take time out to probe down a ship,
Who says you have to be doing the probing while the battle is raging rather than before? Or that the link hunter has to be on field with the rest of the gang? Even if you are in the heat of battle, the fact that you're attacking the enemy's booster will either mean that you have diverted the attention of one of their pilots who is frantically trying to warp their booster out (and in the process deactivating the links), or that you end up with a juicy T3 kill. So it''s hardly as simple as the prober being useless for 15 seconds. The simple act of launching probes can cause disruption to the enemy battle plan. That's like saying that Logi pilots aren't doing anything useful because they aren't putting DPS on target. They have a different role in the fleet.
Quote: as for the battlecrusiers with gang links no not every one should run a link, that is kinda a given Exactly. So some ships will run links, others will have specific roles like chasing down the enemy's boosters. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
156
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 22:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:I'm not sure that removing offgrid boosting really is the rational thing, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the whole system of grids is hopelessly flawed and unpredictable. One need only look at the "Grid Fu" guide to see that. Now it's not such a huge problem when it's just a behind the scenes mechanic that nobody is playing with, but to make it fundamental to boosts, and therefore to fleet fights in general, is to brings the mechanic centre stage, and it's really not in good enough condition for that. Why is this a problem? the worse case scenario is that someone stretches the grid to ridiculous proportions and then they get probed out on grid and warped on top of like people do with sniper ships.
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Secondly, the removal of offgrid boosting would remove one of the main roles of T3s. A 3 link T3 is so crippled by the Command Processors and ganglinks that there's no way it can fit enough tank to be present on the battlefield. Maybe that wouldn't be the end of the world in gameplay terms, but it would be making a whole kind of subsystem effectively useless, which doesn't seem like an ideal solution. Exactly! that was supposed to be the balance of T3 vs command ship anyway, you could have one link that boosted a great amount or 3 links that were not as effective.
And BTW, the proteus would still be used more than the EOS because there is really only one super useful bonus the info warfare links give.
The Loki would be great for boosting an AHAC gang or a nano gang as it can armor tank like an AHAC or nano like a cruiser unlike a claymore.
The tengu and legion would still have a use for giving resistance boosts that are greater than that of a damnation for buffer tanking fleets. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 23:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:An unbonused ship will take at minium 15 seconds to get the results by that time you could be tackled and taking damage,you think that everything will be ok while you take time out to probe down a ship, Who says you have to be doing the probing while the battle is raging rather than before? Or that the link hunter has to be on field with the rest of the gang? Even if you are in the heat of battle, the fact that you're attacking the enemy's booster will either mean that you have diverted the attention of one of their pilots who is frantically trying to warp their booster out (and in the process deactivating the links), or that you end up with a juicy T3 kill. So it''s hardly as simple as the prober being useless for 15 seconds. The simple act of launching probes can cause disruption to the enemy battle plan. That's like saying that Logi pilots aren't doing anything useful because they aren't putting DPS on target. They have a different role in the fleet. Quote: as for the battlecrusiers with gang links no not every one should run a link, that is kinda a given Exactly. So some ships will run links, others will have specific roles like chasing down the enemy's boosters. First the comment about logis is so far out of place it is stupid. And when do you feel it is a good time to probe out, IF there happens to be a fleet in system, if you manage to get away from the fight, assuming there is no interdictor, assuming you are not tackled. And then what launch probes and hope that the T3 booster doesnt notice and cloak, warp off, or be liying in with a trap with a few other ships. |
Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
79
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 07:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
People who want to leave boosting in its current state but make it on-grid only haven't really thought it through.
Boosting is an absurdly powerful force multiplier that scales from 256-man fleets all the way down to solo, and people want to make that available to some gangs and not others by forcing it to be on grid?
Station huggers and gatecamps would, like they already do, park a big fat CS on a gate/station and making them on-grid only would remove the ability for a fast roaming gang to compete with off-grid links. The "rational thing" is to nerf it into the ground so it only becomes worthwhile in fleets large enough to take advantage of a small force multiplier. Having a single ship able to more than double the effectiveness of reps or increase point range by 50% for an entire fleet is unfathomably bad game design and forcing it to be on grid would make it even worse. Nerf that **** down to a quarter of its current effectiveness and it wouldn't be a total game-changer that's basically requisite for any serious fleet, as it is currently. Off-grid boosts wouldn't even be worth the trouble dualboxing, and they'd keep their role as large fleet buffs. |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
422
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:A simple and gentle rebalancing of ganglinks:
-Swap the T3/Fleet Command Ship bonus to ganglinks. -Create a sig bloom for active ganglinks, as on an MWD. Perhaps 500% to begin with, so that offgrid boosters can be probed down more easily. -Block boosting within POS shields.
Solves the problem of ganglink invulnerability, makes fleet command ships more viable, doesn't nerf T3s into the ground, and uses mechanisms that already exist within the game, which should hopefully make it cheap and easy to implement.
I agree with all of it except for 500% per link :D, perhaps something less harsh like 10-50% per link Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
191
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote: Who says you have to be doing the probing while the battle is raging rather than before? Or that the link hunter has to be on field with the rest of the gang?
Nerf offgrid probers |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |