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boiess
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Posted - 2011.01.07 05:42:00 -
[1]
Edited by: boiess on 07/01/2011 05:45:17 Edited by: boiess on 07/01/2011 05:44:46 Have any of the devs had a look at current pos fuel prices mainly robotics, and enriched uranium? Jita market price as of 1-7-2011 robotics are sellin cheapest on market at over 61,000 per unit. that equates to over 43million 900 hundred thousand isk for one months worth to fuel a small, medium , or large tower.By the time you factor in the other fuel its not profitable to mine any of the low to mid low end raw moon mineral. Ive also noticed that the low end mineral prices have actually dropped in price. Dont you think before the PI was introduced robotics seeded market price was just about 7,000 per unit. today its 9times higher. Is there anything you all can do to help lower the costs especially robotics and enriched uranium ? Maybe not make it so difficult to produce so more will acutally do it? Obviously not nearly enough are mainly because its a pain in the neck and involves many steps to produce. Or what about having NPC's drop some pos fuels like when u do a radar site or run a plex as part of the loot rewards.
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2011.01.07 05:56:00 -
[2]
Here's to hoping the dev's leave it alone.
WAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!! POS fuels are too expensive... CCP must fix.
WAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!! Mining doesn't pay enough... CCP must fix.
If fuel costs are too high mandate that your corp members produce (or buy) the fuel.
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roastduck
Gallente MerTeK
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Posted - 2011.01.07 05:58:00 -
[3]
I, for one, have no problems with the high robotics costs. You want CCP to disadvantage the many people, including myself, who produce robotics, because prices are a little high? If you think enriched uranium and robotics cost too much, set up some PI and produce it yourself.
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boiess
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:09:00 -
[4]
I do not want CCP to disadvantage those that are doing PI however, The prices being asked pos fuels esp robotics and enriched uranium verses true market buy orders for the minerals the Pos's produce are way out of balance. Yes I do PI myself along with my alts. Yes my corp members do PI to help produce fuels. But if you do the math If the fuel prices continue to stay very high (and I think 900% increase for robotics is very high) eventually everything on the market is going to go up as well hurting us all. ps, Ive been doing POS management for a few years now.
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roastduck
Gallente MerTeK
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:11:00 -
[5]
As a player, you need to adapt to the game, not try and get the devs to adapt the game to the players
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boiess
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:13:00 -
[6]
your right maybe every single pos operator in the game should just shut them down, I guarentee you that would solve the problem and put you out of business sir.
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GoBack 2WOW
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: boiess your right maybe every single pos operator in the game should just shut them down, I guarentee you that would solve the problem and put you out of business sir.
Seriously?
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:16:00 -
[8]
The only thing CCP needs to redo are the reprocessing tables, so people can start taking advantage of products that include PI items, which are sold under production cost.
Tho fact is, most things are still profitable, they are just not as profitable anymore. PI gets a piece of the pie now as well.
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roastduck
Gallente MerTeK
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: boiess your right maybe every single pos operator in the game should just shut them down, I guarentee you that would solve the problem and put you out of business sir.
aw, you mad?
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mechtech
SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:45:00 -
[10]
".By the time you factor in the other fuel its not profitable to mine any of the low to mid low end raw moon mineral."
The the market will adjust. If the market doesn't adjust, that's because people have a raving case of "I mined it it's free" syndrome.
In today's eve, where T2 is dirt cheap and a BS can be replaced with 15-30 minutes of ratting, I wish more things would have rising prices.
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notajitapricealt
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:51:00 -
[11]
The price of the PI pos fuel is just ridiculous. The low ends aren't even worth mining anymore cause the pos fuel costs more than the moon material is worth. Its only a matter of time before they stop mining those materials. T2 prices are going rise for sure with the rising pos fuel costs. Most alliances buy fuel in bulk maybe every month or two so it should start reflecting in the t2 world soon imo.
Once T2 ships get outrageous I think there will be a change.
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Acac Sunflyier
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Posted - 2011.01.07 07:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: boiess Edited by: boiess on 07/01/2011 05:45:17 Edited by: boiess on 07/01/2011 05:44:46 Have any of the devs had a look at current pos fuel prices mainly robotics, and enriched uranium? Jita market price as of 1-7-2011 robotics are sellin cheapest on market at over 61,000 per unit. that equates to over 43million 900 hundred thousand isk for one months worth to fuel a small, medium , or large tower.By the time you factor in the other fuel its not profitable to mine any of the low to mid low end raw moon mineral. Ive also noticed that the low end mineral prices have actually dropped in price. Dont you think before the PI was introduced robotics seeded market price was just about 7,000 per unit. today its 9times higher. Is there anything you all can do to help lower the costs especially robotics and enriched uranium ? Maybe not make it so difficult to produce so more will acutally do it? Obviously not nearly enough are mainly because its a pain in the neck and involves many steps to produce. Or what about having NPC's drop some pos fuels like when u do a radar site or run a plex as part of the loot rewards.
The funny thing is, its really really easy to make enriched uranium on your own.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.07 09:08:00 -
[13]
Originally by: notajitapricealt The price of the PI pos fuel is just ridiculous. The low ends aren't even worth mining anymore cause the pos fuel costs more than the moon material is worth. Its only a matter of time before they stop mining those materials. T2 prices are going rise for sure with the rising pos fuel costs. Most alliances buy fuel in bulk maybe every month or two so it should start reflecting in the t2 world soon imo.
Once T2 ships get outrageous I think there will be a change.
Would be a good point in time to invest into some of those moon-mins then and profit from the upswing their market prices will underwent, no? support Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Celia Therone
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Posted - 2011.01.07 11:05:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: notajitapricealt The price of the PI pos fuel is just ridiculous. The low ends aren't even worth mining anymore cause the pos fuel costs more than the moon material is worth. Its only a matter of time before they stop mining those materials. T2 prices are going rise for sure with the rising pos fuel costs. Most alliances buy fuel in bulk maybe every month or two so it should start reflecting in the t2 world soon imo.
Once T2 ships get outrageous I think there will be a change.
Would be a good point in time to invest into some of those moon-mins then and profit from the upswing their market prices will underwent, no?
It depends. A lot of people do manufacturing and research at their POS, if that activity pays for fuel then anything mined at the pos just adds to its profit margin - moon harvesters have pretty low requirements. Similarly if you're mining something that is worthwhile you might as well mine the junk too, as you can do it in parallel.
It's been the case for quite a while (way before PI) that most of the low ends weren't worth mining but got produced in ample quantities anyway...
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2011.01.07 11:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: boiess your right maybe every single pos operator in the game should just shut them down, I guarentee you that would solve the problem and put you out of business sir.
That is how supply and demand works. If you can't find a profitable enough use for your pos, then sure, shut it down. That will in turn reduce demand for fuel prices and help out the pos operators who remain.
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2011.01.07 11:41:00 -
[16]
The market of EVE is actually very stable, especially when left alone. When CCP makes a change - PI, production material requirements, (re)spawn rates, loot drops, etc - the market has to rebalance itself. That is not a quick process as the player community is what causes the rebalance to occur. Like dropping a rock into a bucket of water, everything sloshes around - dramatically at first, then slower over time. Trying to settle the water by dropping a second rock onto the first WILL NOT settle things down.
Your paranoid fear that people will stop mining the low-end moon goo is just that... paranoia. If people quit mining the low-end goo, the prices of it will rise, and OMG people will start mining it again.
It's extremely easy for even a small corp to make enough of their own PI pos fuel. IF YOU MAKE ALL YOUR FUEL FROM SCRATCH the only true cost is export/import tax, time (clicking & hauling), and setup expenses. Market prices have no bearing what-so-ever. If you're buying P1 materials and turning them into P2, etc. then you are a slave to the market and have to pay the price for your own laziness.
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Shadow Lightbringer
Daedal Anomaly
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Posted - 2011.01.07 11:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: boiess ... eventually everything on the market is going to go up as well hurting us all.
This would not be a bad thing, market prices are too low as they are now. Market forces will resolve this issue nicely without CCP's intervention.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.07 12:38:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 07/01/2011 12:41:48 This is an issue where the best interests of Eve overall out-weight the interests of a few.
The reason prices are so high is because that is the way CCP designed it. If you look back at the various dev blogs they considered there was to many POS and the numbers would reduce with the change in sovereignty mechanics. However the latest QEN suggests the decline in POS numbers has been modest, this means the majority of POS are about something other than sovereignty, research, manufacturing, logistics, prestige. PI was balanced on those expected numbers, but the numbers are higher. The assumptions of those decisions have proven wrong and there needs to be a serious consideration for adjustment.
PI has a low barrier to entry but is boring, which is huge barrier to persistence. Therefore all the effort in PI is focused on POS fuel because it is necessary and that is where the ISK, however despite this focus pretty much every other PI commodity is a loss maker because the market lacks demand.
The stated intention was for PI to provide low level income for relative newbies. However the massive advantage of low sec resource extraction negates intention.
Conclusion
There is to much demand vs supply for PI sourced POS fuel. There is to little demand vs supply for Advanced Commodities.
Proposal
1) Narrow the low sec advantage for POS fuel manufacture by a modest increase in the raw material supply used to make POS fuel in high sec.
2) Limit PI Advanced manufacturing plants to high sec systems.
3) Increase demand for Advanced Commodities. 3.1) Release blue print for planetary command centres that require Advanced Commodities. 3.2) A modest addition of Advanced Commodities to the blueprint for all capital ship blueprints.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.01.07 13:20:00 -
[19]
OP must be the only POS owner who doesn't do PI to offset the cost of fuel...
Jesus, your post makes my eyes bleed
Originally by: Brock Nelson OP's question is translated as: Help, I'm a female stuck in a man's body, can Incarna help?
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.01.07 15:30:00 -
[20]
CCP's plans for Dust call for districts on these planets to be valuable enough for EvE players to actually fight over, and they expect us to pay dusties to do the fighting. Now I don't know about anyone else, but at current prices, I'm not about to get into a ****ing match over a planet, let alone pay someone else to fight for it. Even if they were valuable enough, they're not rare enough to fight over.
Given the way things are right now, either: What most eve players call pocket change is going to be a fortune to dusties, and we'll be able to buy & sell dust corps at will. That wouldn't be very good game design. -or- The value of these planets to EvE players needs to go WAY up.
Adding value to the planet can't mean increasing output of the existing products, since that will only drive down the price and reduce demand for planets.
What's left is either adding new product to PI that have value to EvE players, or squeezing the current products until demand is high enough that most or all planets get utilized and still fail to meet demand.
All new PI products would mean developing new game mechanics that create demand for those products. That's probably not going to happen within the Dust deployment timeline. Adding existing products means adding something that is currently demand driven to the list of PI products. That could happen, but the only raw resources that are currently demand driven are high end moon goo and Sleeper loot. Could happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. That leaves squeezing output of the existing products until most or all of them are populated, and for prices to still climb from current levels.
My long term bet is that PI prices still have a long way to go before we see the top.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.07 16:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
There is to much demand vs supply for PI sourced POS fuel.
I agree. Please shut down your POS.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.07 17:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Celia Therone
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: notajitapricealt The price of the PI pos fuel is just ridiculous. The low ends aren't even worth mining anymore cause the pos fuel costs more than the moon material is worth. Its only a matter of time before they stop mining those materials. T2 prices are going rise for sure with the rising pos fuel costs. Most alliances buy fuel in bulk maybe every month or two so it should start reflecting in the t2 world soon imo.
Once T2 ships get outrageous I think there will be a change.
Would be a good point in time to invest into some of those moon-mins then and profit from the upswing their market prices will underwent, no?
It depends. A lot of people do manufacturing and research at their POS, if that activity pays for fuel then anything mined at the pos just adds to its profit margin - moon harvesters have pretty low requirements. Similarly if you're mining something that is worthwhile you might as well mine the junk too, as you can do it in parallel.
It's been the case for quite a while (way before PI) that most of the low ends weren't worth mining but got produced in ample quantities anyway...
Then this is the same design flaw that causes some (50-75%) T3 subsystems to be produced below raw material cost. support Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.01.07 17:23:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 07/01/2011 17:25:07
Originally by: Wyke Mossari This is an issue where the best interests of Eve overall out-weight the interests of a few. Who are those few?
As currently implemented, PI is a redistributor of wealth with an inflationary impact on the middle & upper classes. It takes from the producers, gives to everyone, and will (eventually) raise prices for advanced goods.
Not to say that it's good or bad, that's just what it's doing.
PI takes from the producers & POS operators: PI goods are used by mid and hi end manufacturers and POS owners. While many will get into PI to offset that cost, what they've actually done is to create a separate division of their operation that profits from PI via 'selling' to its sister division. One division or the other needs to realize the market value of the PI goods consumed.
PI gives to everyone (that does it): - Skills & cash required to get started in PI are very low relative to the potential payout. - WH space, lowsec, & 0.0 extraction planets are very profitable. Hi-sec factory planets can be profitable if you keep an eye on costs vs revenue. - While 0.0 & WH planets are the most valuable, it is a player controlled operation vs. the way moons work and 10/10 complexes used to work; it's the players profiting vs the alliance.
PI is inflationary on advanced goods. - POS break even point will go up. BPCs, BPO research, low end moon goo, WH operations & Capitol construction will cost more. - Net cost of T2 ships and modules, T3 ships & Cap ships will go up and that cost will be passed back to the consumers.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.07 17:23:00 -
[24]
if you think prices are wonky now just wait untill after they patch it.
Granted I expect prices to stableise soon after.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2011.01.07 17:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow As currently implemented, PI is a redistributor of wealth
PI commodities were previously seeded in the market and not produced by any players. This is not a redistribution of wealth by any means. Your high-end pos operators/manufacturers do not have to pay more for their pos fuel than anyone else does, and the money paid for such fuels are not being selectively distributed based on economic standings.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.01.07 18:37:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 07/01/2011 18:39:58
Originally by: Greg Huff
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow As currently implemented, PI is a redistributor of wealth
PI commodities were previously seeded in the market and not produced by any players. This is not a redistribution of wealth by any means. Your high-end pos operators/manufacturers do not have to pay more for their pos fuel than anyone else does
POS operators and manufacturers of T2 ships and modules and other high end goods are the only consumers of PI materials. In the case of manufacturers, those PI costs will be passed on to their customers. 0.0 alliances absorb it as an infrastructure cost.
Anyone else dealing in PI goods is either part of the PI transport/production chain or speculating in PI goods, but they are not consumers.
Originally by: Greg Huff The money paid for such fuels are not being selectively distributed based on economic standings.
Exactly. The isk is flowing from the rich and the well to do, to anyone that gets in line. Consumers of T2 ships, modules, & high end goods and 0.0 alliances foot the bill; but any individual player from Nooby McNoob to Chribba can choose to get into PI and get their 5 or 6 planets worth of the payout.
With regards to the topic at hand, my point is only that what comes around will eventually go around. As PI costs trickle through the economy, prices will adjust. Most of us will pay more for the things we want, but we have an income opportunity to offset it. Break even mining moons may shut down for a time, but the market's overstock will be absorbed and prices will climb until enough of them are profitable to balance the market.
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Enord Loej
Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.07 18:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: mechtech ".By the time you factor in the other fuel its not profitable to mine any of the low to mid low end raw moon mineral."
The the market will adjust. If the market doesn't adjust, that's because people have a raving case of "I mined it it's free" syndrome.
In today's eve, where T2 is dirt cheap and a BS can be replaced with 15-30 minutes of ratting, I wish more things would have rising prices.
What kind of ratting do you do where you can make at least 50-150M in 15 minutes?
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Ticker Troon
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Posted - 2011.01.07 21:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Greg Huff The market of EVE is actually very stable, especially when left alone. When CCP makes a change - PI, production material requirements, (re)spawn rates, loot drops, etc - the market has to rebalance itself.
QFT. Free-market economies are fairly stable until mucked about with.
Why is it that reasoned, rational posts like these get ignored while the emo posts get all the attention? :)
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Worgen Fratmon
Minmatar Instapop Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.07 22:10:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Worgen Fratmon on 07/01/2011 22:13:48
Originally by: boiess Edited by: boiess on 07/01/2011 05:45:17 Edited by: boiess on 07/01/2011 05:44:46 Have any of the devs had a look at current pos fuel prices mainly robotics, and enriched uranium? Jita market price as of 1-7-2011 robotics are sellin cheapest on market at over 61,000 per unit. that equates to over 43million 900 hundred thousand isk for one months worth to fuel a small, medium , or large tower.By the time you factor in the other fuel its not profitable to mine any of the low to mid low end raw moon mineral. Ive also noticed that the low end mineral prices have actually dropped in price. Dont you think before the PI was introduced robotics seeded market price was just about 7,000 per unit. today its 9times higher. Is there anything you all can do to help lower the costs especially robotics and enriched uranium ? Maybe not make it so difficult to produce so more will acutally do it? Obviously not nearly enough are mainly because its a pain in the neck and involves many steps to produce. Or what about having NPC's drop some pos fuels like when u do a radar site or run a plex as part of the loot rewards.
Hmm, sounds like you found either a place to make money or save money (depending on your personal outlook). Take advantage of it.
EDIT: Don't forget that Robotics may be a POS fuel, but they are not exclusivley a POS fuel.
Also, there is only 1 planet type that Enriched Uranium may be created on, without the need of logistics. Plasma. Without one of those, you have to transport at least 1 P1 to another planet for manufacture.
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Xearal
Minmatar SOL Industries Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.07 23:08:00 -
[30]
PI is fine, sisi's changes might make it even more interesting. ( havent'looked much at it yet ).
I'm part of an industrial corp, and most of our players make one kind of PI product or another. We each specialise in different products, and have a nice portfolio of stuff. Among them, the full package of POS fuels. We sell them locally, to alliance, or ship to Jita what we have left. Making a bundle of cash while we're at it.
The fact that low end moons aren't profitable anymore isn't because of PI causing prices to rise, it's because those same low end things are too cheap. We have a little moonmining POS ourselves, and while it's not profitable, it pays part of it's fuel bill, while the actual reason we have the POS pays the rest.
PI prices are higher now than before because now those products' prices are created by supply/demand, not some arbitrary NPC prices. you want cheaper PI products, then you need to either lower demand, or increase supply. Otherwise, you have to increase the prices of your moon.
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