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HolyNerfBatman
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Posted - 2011.01.07 17:58:00 -
[1]
So I went to sell some lock break bombs to a buy order of 625 at 1.5 million each. The minimum buy amount was 625. There was also a sell order of 1000 for a reasonable price in same region. Now instead of buying those, I bought a total of 625 from a couple of other regions. I imagined the same person had both buy and sell orders, and was hoping that when they saw someone buy from what they had several jumps away, they would just cancel the buy order.
I brought in enough via Orca corporate hanger, so no one could do a cargo scan and that might tip them off. I check market again, buy amount is still there and proceed to sell it.
Nothing happens. For over 10 minutes I tried to sell these and it was like the buy order did not exist. Then, it magically disappeared.
So my question is, is this legit? Are people able to put up buy orders and have it where no one can fill it? What am I missing here?
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Christopher AET
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Posted - 2011.01.07 18:02:00 -
[2]
People sell an item at an inflated price. They then put a buy order and using the margin trading skill so they do not have to pay the full escrow. They then empty the wallet so there is not enough in the wallet to cover the deficit when someone tries to fill the buy order. So the buy order is cancelled.
It's despicable but brilliant.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2011.01.07 18:04:00 -
[3]
Yes.
Margin trading allows you to put up a buy order without enough ISK to cover the total value of the buy.
What normally happens in this scam is, as you rightly deduced, they also have a sell order for the same item. Someone buys the item, they quick move the ISK around, and then when you try and sell the items (back to the same person) the order goes poof.
On the bright side, they didn't get your ISK. On the flip side, you still have a bunch of lock breaker bombs you don't want. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
HolyNerfBatman
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Posted - 2011.01.07 20:33:00 -
[4]
So it is an exploit. Interesting.
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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.01.07 21:03:00 -
[5]
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman So it is an exploit. Interesting.
Are you daft? No, it's not a friggin' exploit. Why would CCP put an entire skill into the game whose entire function is an exploit?
It's a completely legitimate scam, and it was even obvious.
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.07 21:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman So it is an exploit.
Derp. No.
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HolyNerfBatman
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Posted - 2011.01.07 21:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Iam Widdershins
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman So it is an exploit. Interesting.
Are you daft? No, it's not a friggin' exploit. Why would CCP put an entire skill into the game whose entire function is an exploit?
It's a completely legitimate scam, and it was even obvious.
Putting up buy orders and zeroing out the wallet so the when the buy order goes to get filled, it disappears is a bug. They are using this to scam people. Using bugs to gain an unfair advantage over other players is in fact, considered an exploit.
Please explain to me how anyone is supposed to know if a buy order is a legitimate buy order or an exploit buy order? Please explain how you can tell?
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Bodessia
Sandy Castle Bordom Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.01.07 22:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman
Originally by: Iam Widdershins
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman So it is an exploit. Interesting.
Are you daft? No, it's not a friggin' exploit. Why would CCP put an entire skill into the game whose entire function is an exploit?
It's a completely legitimate scam, and it was even obvious.
Putting up buy orders and zeroing out the wallet so the when the buy order goes to get filled, it disappears is a bug. They are using this to scam people. Using bugs to gain an unfair advantage over other players is in fact, considered an exploit.
Please explain to me how anyone is supposed to know if a buy order is a legitimate buy order or an exploit buy order? Please explain how you can tell?
The only way to know is to do what you did. aNow you know it was fake.
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HolyNerfBatman
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Posted - 2011.01.07 22:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Bodessia
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman
Originally by: Iam Widdershins
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman So it is an exploit. Interesting.
Are you daft? No, it's not a friggin' exploit. Why would CCP put an entire skill into the game whose entire function is an exploit?
It's a completely legitimate scam, and it was even obvious.
Putting up buy orders and zeroing out the wallet so the when the buy order goes to get filled, it disappears is a bug. They are using this to scam people. Using bugs to gain an unfair advantage over other players is in fact, considered an exploit.
Please explain to me how anyone is supposed to know if a buy order is a legitimate buy order or an exploit buy order? Please explain how you can tell?
The only way to know is to do what you did. aNow you know it was fake.
And what about the next buy order? There is simply no way of knowing if the buy order is an exploit one or not unless you spend time moving stuff there, and try to sell it.
I am fine with a legitimate scam like a contract with Carbon instead of a Charon and linking it as a Charon. Simply because it is possible to look and see. By using this bug on buy orders, there is simply no way to know one way or another. If they guy wants to have no money when someone goes to fill his order, so be it, but it still should let me do the sale. He should have to pay towards the order when he gets the money to get the items. Not have the order bug and disappear.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.07 22:12:00 -
[10]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 07/01/2011 22:12:45
Originally by: Iam Widdershins No, it's not a friggin' exploit. Why would CCP put an entire skill into the game whose entire function is an exploit?
It's a completely legitimate scam, and it was even obvious.
I won't comment on whether this is an exploit or not. BUT, I seriously doubt CCP added this skill book with the original intent of it being used to create buy/sell fails. Now whether they're OK with the current use of the skill is an entirely different issue.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.01.07 22:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman And what about the next buy order? There is simply no way of knowing if the buy order is an exploit one or not unless you spend time moving stuff there, and try to sell it.
I am fine with a legitimate scam like a contract with Carbon instead of a Charon and linking it as a Charon. Simply because it is possible to look and see. By using this bug on buy orders, there is simply no way to know one way or another. If they guy wants to have no money when someone goes to fill his order, so be it, but it still should let me do the sale. He should have to pay towards the order when he gets the money to get the items. Not have the order bug and disappear.
It's not an exploit. Get this through your head.
WORKING AS INTENDED.
You can't ever tell if an order is even THERE or not until you consent to go through with the transaction; someone else could have completed it, or taken it down, after you loaded the market orders list.
You are basically saying that when a market order doesn't work out in your favor, it's an EXPLOIT OMG. You're just mad because you wasted a little money.
You should probably know more about how the game works before you go around blowing hundreds of millions of isk on what you think is a very clever market manipulation.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2011.01.07 22:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bodessia
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman
Originally by: Iam Widdershins
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman So it is an exploit. Interesting.
Are you daft? No, it's not a friggin' exploit. Why would CCP put an entire skill into the game whose entire function is an exploit?
It's a completely legitimate scam, and it was even obvious.
Putting up buy orders and zeroing out the wallet so the when the buy order goes to get filled, it disappears is a bug. They are using this to scam people. Using bugs to gain an unfair advantage over other players is in fact, considered an exploit.
Please explain to me how anyone is supposed to know if a buy order is a legitimate buy order or an exploit buy order? Please explain how you can tell?
The only way to know is to do what you did. aNow you know it was fake.
There is another way, several ways infact.
Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
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Meisje
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.07 22:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman
Putting up buy orders and zeroing out the wallet so the when the buy order goes to get filled, it disappears is a bug. They are using this to scam people. Using bugs to gain an unfair advantage over other players is in fact, considered an exploit.
Please explain to me how anyone is supposed to know if a buy order is a legitimate buy order or an exploit buy order? Please explain how you can tell?
In EVE-language, exploit means the trick been recognized by CPP and is punishable (ie: character scamming, corp-hopping to avoid wardecs, or pos bowling). Regardless of how lame the scam is, at the moment it isn't officially an recognized, so it's a legitimate scam.
While I agree that it's probably not what CCP intended when they created the skill, the forum crowd will say it's "working as intended" unless CCP comments on it saying otherwise. (To my knowledge, they haven't commented on this.)
I'd suggest raising the issue in the assembly hall forum or with a CSM if you feel very strongly about it.
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Amanda Eidolo
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2011.01.07 23:22:00 -
[14]
HA HA HA HA HA
THE HIGHLIGHT REEL READS LIKE THIS:
OP GOT GREEDY AND TRIED TO GET OVER ON SOMEONE BUT INSTEAD ENDED UP BEING THE ONE WHO GOT WORKED ON
DEAR GOD THESE THREADS MAKE ME CHUCKLE
OH ALSO OP I HAVE A PETITION RESPONSE HERE FROM A GM TELLING ME IT'S PERFECTLY FINE TO USE THE MARGIN TRADING SKILL IN THE FASHION THAT BURNT YOU SO BAD
SO ENJOY IT, SON
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Sindayn Itai
Black Lotus Heavy Industries Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2011.01.07 23:34:00 -
[15]
IMO is CCP legitimises it, it's prob a glitch they don't tend on fixing any time soon :)
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2011.01.08 03:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Iam Widdershins
Originally by: HolyNerfBatman So it is an exploit. Interesting.
Are you daft? No, it's not a friggin' exploit. Why would CCP put an entire skill into the game whose entire function is an exploit?
It's a completely legitimate scam, and it was even obvious.
Exploits doesn't have to be bannable offenses. Abusing something is an exploit. Abusing perfectly legal game mechanics is to exploit them. I could repeat myself more times but I am too lazy to type another sentence. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.01.08 03:33:00 -
[17]
This is dirty rotten hax and should be punishable by something very mean and upsetting.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2011.01.08 03:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lady Spank This is dirty rotten hax and should be punishable by something very mean and upsetting.
I'll send my mom right over. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.01.08 07:35:00 -
[19]
I want to make sure I understand this correctly.
If have marginal trading to level 5 and I make sure my wallet is empty, when some tries to fill the order, the order vanishes. They don't get to fill the order and I don't lose out on any ISK? It was as if the buy order never existed?
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.08 08:28:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Marlona Sky I want to make sure I understand this correctly.
If have marginal trading to level 5 and I make sure my wallet is empty, when some tries to fill the order, the order vanishes. They don't get to fill the order and I don't lose out on any ISK? It was as if the buy order never existed?
Minus the broker fees and suchlike, yes.
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Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.01.08 09:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: Marlona Sky I want to make sure I understand this correctly.
If have marginal trading to level 5 and I make sure my wallet is empty, when some tries to fill the order, the order vanishes. They don't get to fill the order and I don't lose out on any ISK? It was as if the buy order never existed?
Minus the broker fees and suchlike, yes.
Is the buy order supposed to disappear or is that a glitch?
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.01.08 11:21:00 -
[22]
The buy order disappears if someone tries to fulfil the order and you can't afford it; thus allowing the next order in line to take position at the top.
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Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.01.08 11:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dub Step The buy order disappears if someone tries to fulfil the order and you can't afford it; thus allowing the next order in line to take position at the top.
I'm so getting into this the moment I log in. All reward, no risk. Sign me up!
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Sakide
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Posted - 2011.01.08 11:47:00 -
[24]
there is a 10% fee of the escrow if your buy order does not work and the broker fees cost too. so its not for free.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.08 12:22:00 -
[25]
cool scam, just remember next time if it looks too good to be true it probably is. always a good idea to check the market history of an item before throwing a bunch of isk at it.
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Zelda Wei
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Posted - 2011.01.08 16:08:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Christopher AET
It's despicable but brilliant.
Because market PvP is the purest PvP.
Actually this is the crudest applications of this technique. It can be used as a bot trap, a barrier for competitors, to fake a dead cat bounce, a float to fool sellers into selling to a lower priced order, a balloon to manipulate a price bubble.
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Maximum Kiely
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:16:00 -
[27]
If you follow the rule of knowing your market and buying low selling high this "scam" shouldn't matter. There is no guarantee a legit order is still going to be there by the time you do deliver the goods. But if you bought the goods at a reasonable price then you should still be able to sell them at a profitā right?
If you bought something at a high price to sell to someone willing (or pretending) to pay an inflated price then you have not followed the basic life lesson of "when something is too good to be trueā" let alone any of the other fundamental rules of commerce.
So ya, it might be despicableā but you can't say you're not warned about of these types of things in this game.
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Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
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Posted - 2011.01.08 19:05:00 -
[28]
There would be a way to "solve" that without changing margin trading, which is a very fine mechanics in its own right. It would be to be able to filter out orders with minimum amount as they are mostly used to scam anyway...
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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.01.08 20:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sindayn Itai IMO is CCP legitimises it, it's prob a glitch they don't tend on fixing any time soon :)
Which part of "Working As Intended" says to you that it is "prob a glitch"? Please tell me, I'm writing a paper on people like you and I honestly don't know.
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Serra Polaris
Polaris Operations
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Posted - 2011.01.08 21:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Iam Widdershins
Originally by: Sindayn Itai IMO is CCP legitimises it, it's prob a glitch they don't tend on fixing any time soon :)
Which part of "Working As Intended" says to you that it is "prob a glitch"? Please tell me, I'm writing a paper on people like you and I honestly don't know.
Well has CCP said it's working as intended? It's like dropping more than 6 cans around a gate with the intent to decloak or lag. Dropping cans is legit but it's considered an exploit. I'm not saying this has been classified as an exploit but I'm curious what CCP has to say about it. I'd be surprised if Margin Trading was designed with the idea of setting up fake buy orders in mind. People will set up similar real buy orders so it's hard to spot which ones are fake.
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