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Ultim8Evil
Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.09 03:43:00 -
[1]
Following on from a "discussion" with a corpmate, I wish to doublecheck that I am right and he is wrong.
The Large Beam Laser Specialisation skill does NOT apply to faction Tachs as they do NOT require it, so you do NOT get the +2% per lvl damage bonus from it.
Therefore, after you have Large Beam Laser Specialisation lvl 3 and above, the higher base damage of faction Tachs is moot and T2 Tachs actually outdamage them, assuming you're using identical crystals.
The ONLY benefits to using faction Tachs are the reduced cap use, fewer required skills and less CPU to fit.
I ran my Paladin setup through EFT and got 1107dps with T2 Tachs and only 1073 with Faction ones. This further confirms my side of the argument.
My corpmate seems to think that "EFT is wrong" and "if you try it ingame, you'll see".
I very much doubt that EFT wrong. If it was, the forum would be dripping with tears.
I am calling on you, the great EVE community, to convince me I am right; T2 Tachs > Faction with the right skills.
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superteds
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Posted - 2011.01.09 03:46:00 -
[2]
p much
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.09 04:11:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ultim8Evil I am calling on you, the great EVE community, to convince me I am right; T2 Tachs > Faction with the right skills.
As long as you aren't dropping gank mods to support the increased cap use, yes T2 is better.
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Gligan
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Posted - 2011.01.09 04:14:00 -
[4]
I doubt you'll be able to measure 30 DPS difference in game(except by looking at the damage mods of course). Still faction guns spend a lot less cap and are easier to fit , and since you'll be using navy multifrequency it's not like you'll need t2 guns for the ammo.but to each their own I guess, I've talked to a ton of people who swear by the t2 guns. I personally saw my green cap stable go red and switched back to the faction ones in a hurry
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Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.09 05:21:00 -
[5]
well... at 80 million ISK a pop.... the price to benefit ratio sounds like a bad deal to me! of course they are easier to fit and **** but... 80 mil a piece.. just for that?
The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature. |
Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2011.01.09 06:01:00 -
[6]
There is no benefit that a faction turret gives you that makes up for the loss of the ability to use T2 ammo. It becomes pure pimp with no actual worth. By all means, do it if you really want to, but keep in mind that you lose so many benefits that the T2 tachs have.
The Beam laser spec skills do not apply to faction guns.
The Specialization skills however do apply to faction launchers, which might be what got your corpmate going with the idea that the spec skills apply to faction guns.
"The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.01.09 06:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido There is no benefit that a faction turret gives you that makes up for the loss of the ability to use T2 ammo. It becomes pure pimp with no actual worth. By all means, do it if you really want to, but keep in mind that you lose so many benefits that the T2 tachs have.
The Beam laser spec skills do not apply to faction guns.
The Specialization skills however do apply to faction launchers, which might be what got your corpmate going with the idea that the spec skills apply to faction guns.
Wow. There's a little truth and a lot of fail in this post.
First of all, T2 tachyon ammo sucks. Aurora gives you extra range that you don't need, at the expense of damage, tracking speed, and capacitor consumption. Gleam gives only marginally more damage while halving the range provided even by MULTIFREQUENCY, while at the same time decreasing tracking. Fail.
You are correct. T2 specialization skills do not apply to faction turrets. However, it's worth noting that T2 turrets use 25% more capacitor, and do less damage until you have the specialization skill at 3, topping out at a mere 5% more damage at level 5 (which very few people bother to train).
Finally, specialization skills do NOT apply to T2 faction launchers. However, even at level 5, the T2 specialization skill is insufficient to do more DPS than the inherently higher RoF and clip size provided by T2 launchers. This may be what you were thinking of.
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Thraxor Blacksoul
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Posted - 2011.01.09 07:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Izuru Hishido There is no benefit that a faction turret gives you that makes up for the loss of the ability to use T2 ammo. It becomes pure pimp with no actual worth. By all means, do it if you really want to, but keep in mind that you lose so many benefits that the T2 tachs have.
The Beam laser spec skills do not apply to faction guns.
The Specialization skills however do apply to faction launchers, which might be what got your corpmate going with the idea that the spec skills apply to faction guns.
Wow. There's a little truth and a lot of fail in this post.
First of all, T2 tachyon ammo sucks. Aurora gives you extra range that you don't need, at the expense of damage, tracking speed, and capacitor consumption. Gleam gives only marginally more damage while halving the range provided even by MULTIFREQUENCY, while at the same time decreasing tracking. Fail.
You are correct. T2 specialization skills do not apply to faction turrets. However, it's worth noting that T2 turrets use 25% more capacitor, and do less damage until you have the specialization skill at 3, topping out at a mere 5% more damage at level 5 (which very few people bother to train).
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.01.09 11:04:00 -
[9]
I forget, why are faction missile launchers affected by specialization skills?
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Terianna Eri
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.01.09 11:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I forget, why are faction missile launchers affected by specialization skills?
since when? ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Edge Horseman
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Posted - 2011.01.09 11:14:00 -
[11]
Faction sentry drones also affected by the spec skills..
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Bibosikus
Gallente Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.09 11:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Edge Horseman Faction sentry drones also affected by the spec skills..
Confirming that this is indeed trolling horsesh*t.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.01.09 11:50:00 -
[13]
Faction (and T1) Drones are affected by the specialization skills because the skills themselves don't explicitly mention that they only affect T2 modules. Guns and Launchers, on the other hand, DO specifically mention that they only function with the T2 modules they are prerequisites for.
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Bibosikus
Gallente Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.09 12:10:00 -
[14]
Er..
eg. Ammar Drone Specialization:
"Specialization in the operation of advanced Amarr drones. 2% bonus to advanced Amarr drone damage per level."
Advanced = T2. Not T1, not faction, and NOT SENTRIES.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.09 12:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I forget, why are faction missile launchers affected by specialization skills?
They're not, but their intrinsic stats are such that they're better than a launcher with spec 5 (barring T2 ammo use ofc)
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.01.09 12:17:00 -
[16]
Ack! I stand corrected. T1 and faction drones are indeed not afffected by the specialization skill.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.01.09 12:28:00 -
[17]
The main (read: only) benefit of using faction beams is to conserve capacitor.
They have lower damage due to specialization skill and you give up the option of using T2 crystals.
For mission running the lower cap use can be a godsend.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2011.01.09 13:05:00 -
[18]
Every single point of dps/range/tracking/missile precision counts for pve - if you are looking for best possible isk/h.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2011.01.09 14:54:00 -
[19]
Boost fraction turrents!
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Tomohiro Tsumego
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Posted - 2011.01.09 15:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Every single point of dps/range/tracking/missile precision counts for pve - if you are looking for best possible isk/h.
This is incorrect. Only points of dps that count for pve are the points at which you can kill your targets with fewer volleys than before.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2011.01.09 16:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tomohiro Tsumego This is incorrect. Only points of dps that count for pve are the points at which you can kill your targets with fewer volleys than before.
Wrong. Btw, you do realize that you can ungroup your weapons, that all damage mods ppl fit on pve boats affect weapon rof too and that rats have local reps you have to get through, right?
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.01.09 16:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Tomohiro Tsumego This is incorrect. Only points of dps that count for pve are the points at which you can kill your targets with fewer volleys than before.
Wrong. Btw, you do realize that you can ungroup your weapons, that all damage mods ppl fit on pve boats affect weapon rof too and that rats have local reps you have to get through, right?
While what you say isnt entirely untrue, the nightmare does not benefit of marginal gains as much as Ships with a higher ROF. If you can kill targets with one turret volley less (heaving them ungrouped is a good idea in the first place) the dps will matter, otherwise it wont, simple as that. Heaving 4 Heatsinks for instance is not as important as heaving a second tracking enhancer, since the optimal and falloff range will let you use antimatter more frequently, which will boost your overall performance considerably.
And the rat tank does matter as well, no doubt but compared to your overall dps it will only really matter when sniping.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2011.01.09 16:29:00 -
[23]
Nightmare does benefit greatly from 4th faction heatsink /50dps/ as well as it benefits from t2 burst aerator rig /70dps/. Not to say it can comfortably fit 1x te and 2x tc so dropping 4th heatsink for 2+4k range isnt very good idea.
Dont forget that turrets have variable damage so that 400 more volley damage /60dps/ from t2 tachys will save you alot of time youd have spent wasting additional volleys on target.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.01.09 16:33:00 -
[24]
I guess its a matter of taste, but remember that rats have resistances, and EFT numbers should allways be taken with a grain of salt. I personally fit an AB instead of the second TC as it boosts my mission completion time overall (and im not a huge fan of refitting)
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Vardec Crom
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Posted - 2011.01.09 17:40:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Izuru Hishido There is no benefit that a faction turret gives you that makes up for the loss of the ability to use T2 ammo. It becomes pure pimp with no actual worth. By all means, do it if you really want to, but keep in mind that you lose so many benefits that the T2 tachs have.
The Beam laser spec skills do not apply to faction guns.
The Specialization skills however do apply to faction launchers, which might be what got your corpmate going with the idea that the spec skills apply to faction guns.
Wow. There's a little truth and a lot of fail in this post.
First of all, T2 tachyon ammo sucks. Aurora gives you extra range that you don't need, at the expense of damage, tracking speed, and capacitor consumption. Gleam gives only marginally more damage while halving the range provided even by MULTIFREQUENCY, while at the same time decreasing tracking. Fail.
You are correct. T2 specialization skills do not apply to faction turrets. However, it's worth noting that T2 turrets use 25% more capacitor, and do less damage until you have the specialization skill at 3, topping out at a mere 5% more damage at level 5 (which very few people bother to train).
Finally, specialization skills do NOT apply to T2 faction launchers. However, even at level 5, the T2 specialization skill is insufficient to do more DPS than the inherently higher RoF and clip size provided by T2 launchers. This may be what you were thinking of.
T2 Launchers out dps Faction launchers. You're forgetting Rage ammo of course. I've done this before on EFT, even factoring in reload time with faction's higher ammo volume, T2 still does significantly more. In fact, I put in dread gurista ammo just for ****s and giggles and Rage still out dps's it. On a 2x rigor 1xbay loading accelarator Tengu with a TP, you're 2 shotting frigs, so don't give the higher explosion radius argument, as most pve ships can fit to compensate.
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Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.09 18:40:00 -
[26]
You are right Ultim8Evil.
Tech 2 Pro's Cheaper then Fraction Alittle more dps And if you wish to call Tech 2 Beam ammo a pro but I dont.
Con's Higher cap Higher cpu fiting Tech 2 Beam ammo sux's my opion.
Fraction Pro's Easyer cpu fitings Noticably less cap usage Lower skill req. Not tempted to try and make use of Tech 2 beam ammo :)
Fraction Cons Much higher cost of weapon verse Tech 2 and harder to find. Alittle less dps A full rack of High slot Fraction guns can make you a gank target in high sec on a mission boat.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
Vardec Crom
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Posted - 2011.01.09 18:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rip Minner You are right Ultim8Evil.
Tech 2 Pro's Cheaper then Fraction Alittle more dps And if you wish to call Tech 2 Beam ammo a pro but I dont.
Con's Higher cap Higher cpu fiting Tech 2 Beam ammo sux's my opion.
Fraction Pro's Easyer cpu fitings Noticably less cap usage Lower skill req. Not tempted to try and make use of Tech 2 beam ammo :)
Fraction Cons Much higher cost of weapon verse Tech 2 and harder to find. Alittle less dps A full rack of High slot Fraction guns can make you a gank target in high sec on a mission boat.
By the way, it's Faction, not Fraction.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.01.09 19:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Vardec Crom
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Izuru Hishido There is no benefit that a faction turret gives you that makes up for the loss of the ability to use T2 ammo. It becomes pure pimp with no actual worth. By all means, do it if you really want to, but keep in mind that you lose so many benefits that the T2 tachs have.
The Beam laser spec skills do not apply to faction guns.
The Specialization skills however do apply to faction launchers, which might be what got your corpmate going with the idea that the spec skills apply to faction guns.
Wow. There's a little truth and a lot of fail in this post.
First of all, T2 tachyon ammo sucks. Aurora gives you extra range that you don't need, at the expense of damage, tracking speed, and capacitor consumption. Gleam gives only marginally more damage while halving the range provided even by MULTIFREQUENCY, while at the same time decreasing tracking. Fail.
You are correct. T2 specialization skills do not apply to faction turrets. However, it's worth noting that T2 turrets use 25% more capacitor, and do less damage until you have the specialization skill at 3, topping out at a mere 5% more damage at level 5 (which very few people bother to train).
Finally, specialization skills do NOT apply to T2 faction launchers. However, even at level 5, the T2 specialization skill is insufficient to do more DPS than the inherently higher RoF and clip size provided by T2 launchers. This may be what you were thinking of.
T2 Launchers out dps Faction launchers. You're forgetting Rage ammo of course. I've done this before on EFT, even factoring in reload time with faction's higher ammo volume, T2 still does significantly more. In fact, I put in dread gurista ammo just for ****s and giggles and Rage still out dps's it. On a 2x rigor 1xbay loading accelarator Tengu with a TP, you're 2 shotting frigs, so don't give the higher explosion radius argument, as most pve ships can fit to compensate.
Yes, Auroa does suck, but you're not required to use them. The thing is, even with multi, t2 tachs still outdps faction tachs at max skills. This means as long as cap and fitting allows, t2 tach outdps faction, period.
Missile are different. With t1/faction ammo, faction HMLs outdps T2 HMLs. It's only with t2 ammo, and T2 does more dps, but those have serious drawbacks. Btw, A single volley of faction missiles from tengu pops elite frigs at max skills, while it takes 2 volleys of rage. You're supposed to switch to precision missiles on elite frigs if using t2 anyway.
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Vardec Crom
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Posted - 2011.01.09 20:38:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Vardec Crom on 09/01/2011 20:38:21 Serious drawbacks? Such as? With 2 rigor's you're getting 110 exp radius roughly, which means full damage to cruisers and bc's and bs's without a TP. And the sig radius increase is negligible, you're either flying a drake/bs which already has a sig radius large enough that it doesn't matter. Or you're flying a Tengu where 206m vs 150m doesn't effect your tank. Your comment about using precision for elite frigs makes me question whether or not you actually fly a Tengu.
In a sanctum, spawns are generally 30-70 km's out, depending on how far you orbit. There's a maximum of 4 elite frigs. Now, you can fire 2 volley's of rage per ship, and be done with it which means you lose a maximum of 14 seconds to faction ammo. Or you can spend 10 seconds reloading to precision. Now, there ARE several major drawbacks to precision. Namely, explosion velocity and flight time. While elite frigs are mwd'ing towards you, you are going to be doing **** damage to them with precision. Now, after you are done with precision which takes you god knows how many volley's per frig, you have to reload back to fury, which is an additional 10 seconds. Even assuming precision one shots elite frigs (which it won't) It's still 6 seconds faster to 2 volley them with fury. Sheer volley damage and precisions low exp velocity makes up for the explosion radius difference in killing time.
It's all irrelevant anyway as you spend only a fraction of your time killing frigs. If you put 2 identical Tengu's with identically skilled pilots in a sanctum, one with t2 the other with faction launchers, the T2 pilot is going to finish faster, and get this, for 1/100th the price!
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.09 22:49:00 -
[30]
Why are you not in a Mach?
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