Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Cyonsiaros StrawHat
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
This will be a refined version of a 5 page post which was pretty sloppy and not so well recieved.
My problem is eve pvp seems much less skill dependent than it could be. A noted effect of this is it fails as a spectator sport; streams are less than interesting and the best accounts of anything in eve is a story or screenshots where as video of pvp-related events typically result in very little action. If it's not fun to watch; it loses value from a visual learners perspective.
I'd rather see popular streams and tournaments than hulkagedon or what does exist although stuff like bounties for killing miners to drive up minerals is cool; I'd like more small scale and slightly more large scale pvp depth than engaging the grid correctly and than turning on active hardners and auto-shotting after an alpha. I don't want to see shots activated to automatically shoot as much as I do observe; there is much less to do in pvp than their could be.
I would like a second mechanic or modified capacitor mechanic. It would work a bit like the capacitor but all guns would diminish this resource when taking damage and many guns will use this resource when shooting.
I'm fully aware of how the capacitor works; how shielding works etc.
I would like there to be more emphasis in pvp on turning modules on and off at specific intervals more so than are currently present. An active type of gameplay involving cycling modules or weapons each second based on what a player can feasibly read and react to.
Lets ignore the standard definition of energy in eve for a moment and instead consider energy a new value next to or entwined with capacitor which has the following effects:
How the mechanic I'd like works: * All damage effects the current pool of energy * Relative energy is directly tied to resistances. If you have 80% resistance with hardeners on but you expelled all your energy; the new shield value with hardeners on and working would be closer to the energy value
For instance: At 80% energy an 80% resist tank has full damage mitigation stated. At 50% energy an 80% resist tank would have 70% mitigation At 20% energy an 80% resist tank would have 30% mitigation
Something along those lines. What I do not like currently is the shield breaking or both sides do xyz dps and eventually a target because of less effective damage or their capacitor runs out all their hardeners turn off.
What I don't like specifically: I like shield mechanics; capacitor is ok; I do not like that this is the only mechanic in place here. I would like an active toggling of weapons systems. utilities and hardeners to matter much more than they currently do.
If I can turn hardners on right before being vollied or alpha'd and turn them off between shots; letting skill and reaction time dictate the fight more so than current factors - I would be happier.
Now we already toggle these systems; but not to the extent I'd like. In my world you're rewarded for core gaming skills. This would bring skill as a third determining factor in pvp in the form of reaction and energy management that's a little more developed and in depth than what the game currently offers.
I realize skill is involved in pvp in other areas; The ability to call the correct targets for instance or the know how - of entering and exiting grids. I realise modules are already toggled and capacitor already managed and effects tanking in a way. I want more emphasis on how modules and weapons are activated and I want players less capable or skilled to be punished in the sense that they're not going to be the best players/ Skill in pvp is a bigger determinate than it currently is in the way I'd like a new pvp mechanic to work.
New Mechnic - Energy like mechanic - Directly correlates to resistances based on the level of this resource left. This resource regenerates and can be modded like capacitor - but the effective use of modules and weapons becomes much more skill oriented and those played that are sitting with all modules and weapons on after the intiial alpha on a grid are penalised compared to those who actively use their modules on a per second basis to maximise damage done and taken - far more so than what is currently allowed - which makes for bland pvp that has little value when converted to streamed media.
You don't have full resistance at 25% capacitor because your hardeners are sitll on - that's lame. If you waste you energy on running modules 24/7 you are not flying correctly and will take more damage than someone who can toggle their systems effectively.
Right now pvp on a per ship basis more so relates to dps difference and eventually if a capacitor is neautralized the hardeners and speed mods will turn off. Whenever there's capacitor energy and hardeners and mitigation mods are on; you get full mitigation in relation to Resistance.
I believe that if a player were taxed more heavily on their use of weapons and modules (to the point where toggling them correctly will set you apart from other players) we get a more interesting pvp scene where people from other games will watch eve footage and crowds will experience the highs and lows.
Weapons will all effect this energy total - so now we have this third factor which adds a skill based mechanic to pvp which currently is underdeveloped. small scale and large scale pvp is now more interesting and each pilots ability to fly is more heavily weighed and matters much more in the outcome of a fight.
If anyone has input or has trouble understanding a new mechanic such as this; post.
|
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
218
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Moving this from General Discussion to Features and Ideas. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Ensign Community Communication Liasions (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Cyonsiaros StrawHat
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Moving this from General Discussion to Features and Ideas. Thanks! The thread changed a bit from original conception and it is more appropriately moved as you did.
Now where do I get this mechanic idea from? From a mmo space game which predates eve online. In a sense. The original game was called subspace which spawned fleet and Cosmic Rift. Sony Online bought Cosmic rift along with a game called infantry in order to use chat code for Everquest.
See cosmic rift was eve pvp before eve really existed; the difference is it was skill based and less afk/nap based as current pvp is. It was much faster and easy to decide who the quickest thinkers were. Why before eve? Because the engine was developed long before eve was around and literally was the beginning of the spaceship mmo era.
Essentially Cosmic rift had capacitor and the energy concept combined as one (as eve actually does as well). But the major difference was every time you were shot you lost capacitor or energy in addition to most weapons requiring capacitor energy. (in fact it's highly likely eve's rendition is actually an interpretation of this)
So you could have fields (resistance) in Cosmic Rift which lowered the damage you took. You would toogle your fields on sometimes- for 1 second just as the shot lands than turn them off until the next shot is about to land to save capacitor.
Here toggling of the capacitor is of litterally little emphasis or valuye in pvp as far as whether or not you should live when you can't actively turn modules on and off not once in a whine but every other moment in reaction to an outside stimulous.
If you had 100% capitor you had 100% mitigation; and about 100% for 80% capacitor too. If you had 20% capacitor the equivalent would be dying in an alpha instantly - After all if you knew how to toggle you wouldn't get that low except for extensive neutralizing. It's not run all modules until 0 energy and than your resistance turns off. You start being penalized for low capacitor earlier and all damage types effect the capacitor.
this add more depth and skill to pvp - and means pvp can be commentated and more second by second choices and action present.
In comic rift you might have 30 kj/s killajoules or w/e energy measurement. a hardener equivalent might use 10 0r 20 kj's 3 hardeners would diminish energy very quickly unless toggled effectively.
Cosmic rift also taxed capacitor for hyper thrusting (equivalent to afterburners)
The idea was those who could toggle modules more effectively and not shoot 24/7 would defeat those who did shoot 24/7 or use modules 24/7. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
838
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
So your solution to making PvP more "interesting" is to add more twitch based controls and heavily penalize anyone who does not use this twitch play "properly"?
Putting aside the fact that pretty much every module, weapon, and ship in the game would have to be reprogrammed to allow for this sort of thing (because it would render module and weapon cycle time moot and have to be balanced in all ships) and the fact that the server is not exactly the most "twitch-friendly" thing around (it only accepts any new [series of] command[s] once a second) I fail to see how this idea achieves its goal.
If anything, it would increase the tedium on flying around. Now, not only are you trying to size up that ship you have in your sights, spamming the D-scanner to see if there are any hostiles nearby, trying to guesstimate where that ship might align to, where your ship is aligned to, checking to see how many people are in local, typing in chat to see if ou may have backup if things go south, and then trying to see how you can get the drop on this ship because you are flying a blaster boat and if you don't get a scram on quick before this ship can pull range then you die......... BUT, now you have to be concerned that this person plays CoD and has better twitch reflexes than you?
I say no. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Cyonsiaros StrawHat
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 06:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:So your solution to making PvP more "interesting" is to add more twitch based controls and heavily penalize anyone who does not use this twitch play "properly"?
Putting aside the fact that pretty much every module, weapon, and ship in the game would have to be reprogrammed to allow for this sort of thing (because it would render module and weapon cycle time moot and have to be balanced in all ships) and the fact that the server is not exactly the most "twitch-friendly" thing around (it only accepts any new [series of] command[s] once a second) I fail to see how this idea achieves its goal.
If anything, it would increase the tedium on flying around. Now, not only are you trying to size up that ship you have in your sights, spamming the D-scanner to see if there are any hostiles nearby, trying to guesstimate where that ship might align to, where your ship is aligned to, checking to see how many people are in local, typing in chat to see if ou may have backup if things go south, and then trying to see how you can get the drop on this ship because you are flying a blaster boat and if you don't get a scram on quick before this ship can pull range then you die......... BUT, now you have to be concerned that this person plays CoD and has better twitch reflexes than you?
I say no.
Well actually if you speak for the masses; if I assume you speak for more than just yourself...
Than I can assume most players won't be able to do this well; and literally only the best gamers will see the advantage of doing so. So it wouldn't really effect you all that much; because most players you fight won't be very good either. It's very relative.
weapon timers might not need to change insanely or at all; module timers probably would if you wanted to get the most benefit from such. As modules stay on for quite a few seconds.
As far as the twitch comment; well - only highly skilled players will get the most from it; the model shouldn't ruin equally skilled fights so much. If you can't toggle as an average player your opponent probably can't either.
As far as the other factors; that's more of a limit on the 50+ year old crowd and the active thinking and reaction shouldn't be so hard for anyone 16-32 years of age who isn't physically impaired.
The main interest this point has for me; is that the game would be more intense; 1v1's could result in very different ways between someone who is a professional and someone who's more of a farmville gamer type. PVP is more active because I can commentate what a player did right or wrong on a player by player basis adding action when players do this perfectly. Right now watching eve pvp is a train wreck and the least amusing of streamed games across the board; this was my proposed fix. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
234
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 06:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
No offence as I know you are new. It seems you biggest problem with PVP may just come from your ability to fit ships (which is a key skill in Eve). Your losses all show ships which are focused on doing one thing, whether it is tanking or damage, you seem to ignore things like propulsion modules and tackle completely.
The skill in PVP in eve is definitely in maneuvering, good flying can massively reduce incoming damage or allow you to massively increase your own damage.
Your biggest mistake is assuming Eve is anything like other games, play for a bit longer and you will see the skills in Eve are people skills not twitch skills. That said watch any Kil2 / Garmon video and you can see that solo PVP is far from easy |
Ghazu
36
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 06:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Have you even watched the Alliance Tournaments? Check these guys out for the more intricate aspects of PVP. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=42133
There is already a distinction between active and passive buffer tanking. |
Cyonsiaros StrawHat
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 07:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:No offence as I know you are new. It seems you biggest problem with PVP may just come from your ability to fit ships (which is a key skill in Eve). Your losses all show ships which are focused on doing one thing, whether it is tanking or damage, you seem to ignore things like propulsion modules and tackle completely.
The skill in PVP in eve is definitely in maneuvering, good flying can massively reduce incoming damage or allow you to massively increase your own damage.
Your biggest mistake is assuming Eve is anything like other games, play for a bit longer and you will see the skills in Eve are people skills not twitch skills. That said watch any Kil2 / Garmon video and you can see that solo PVP is far from easy
My ship losses are not from pvp' they're from being popped at 0.4 gates (2v1 typically) missions versus pvp tech 2 builds; tech 1 doesn't beat tech 2 at all.; when there's little traffic to begin with. It's cool that you use a mid slot for the propulsion module instead of blasting a mission and than grabbing your salvager/looter.
If you take a closer look the ships have pretty decent range and the tank fits are far above what is required for level 3 missions.
I have 0.4 gate pops and a loss or two when I've left the computer in a mission.
Your biggest mistake is assuming my ships were lost because of their fits; it's naive and I can tell you also are new to either eve or gaming in general ( at least that you don't know the relative values of mitigation used for various mission levels ) . I've lost a good couple ships from literally sectors with less than 20 deaths in the last 12-23 hours. Now you can say I should have used an alt to check - or done anything but base my decision off of kills in the system - but the losses don't really hurt me at all.
Skill in pvp in majorly positioning as I mentioned as a problem; I'm glad you agree that pvp is positioning. What I don't get is why you're satisfied with that. |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 13:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Edit:
Messed up my post and cba to retype it.
TL;DR No. Eve combat is naval like in nature (space SHIPS) and 70% of the fight is determined before the first shot has even been fired. That means you need to think more and click fast or use macro keyboards less. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
300
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cyonsiaros StrawHat wrote:This will be a refined version of a 5 page post which was pretty sloppy and not so well recieved.
I predict this will be a less sloppy and equally well received thread.
Cyonsiaros StrawHat wrote:My problem is eve pvp seems much less skill dependent than it could be. A noted effect of this is it fails as a spectator sport; streams are less than interesting and the best accounts of anything in eve is a story or screenshots where as video of pvp-related events typically result in very little action. If it's not fun to watch; it loses value from a visual learners perspective.
Sadly your initial premise is flawed, thereby negating pretty much your post.
EVE PVP has tons to do with skill. There are many subtle aspects to PVP that take a very long time to master. And plenty of things already in the game to multitask, we don't need more.
EVE pvp has much more tactical skill needs and less reflex skill need. Works perfectly for a game like this.
|
|
mxzf
Blackened Skies
2044
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:That means you need to think more and click fast or use macro keyboards less.
This.
If you want a game that rewards you for having a macro keyboard and clicking fast, there are other games for you. Eve, however, is a tactical game where strategy is far more important than anything else. The battle is won or lost as much before the fight as during it.
I say this as someone who does have a keyboard I could bind macros to and who does play twitch-based games too, those things have no place in Eve, leave them in the games they belong in. |
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
101
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 00:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
There are already a ton of twitch games out there. Go play one of those.
Why does every game need to be a spectator game? We like eve the way it is. |
Ghazu
36
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 04:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1803748#post1803748
how's the rmt goin? you banned yet? |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |