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Minmatar Freedom
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Posted - 2011.01.12 07:26:00 -
[1]
or at least a joke played on the new players.
I've been trying to make a go at trading for almost three months now. I was a hardcore miner/industrialist and I made the switch to trading because it seemed like better money. Three months in and I'm still barely breaking even. I've read every guide and advice thread I can get my hands on and spend many long hours plugging away at this.
I'm starting to think there really isn't any real profit to be made trading and discussing it is basically a way to get new characters to schlep things for older players under the guise of making money.
I'm fully open to the possibility I've been doing it completely wrong and thus making no money, but after three months of hard work and following guides with nothing to show for it...
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.01.12 08:06:00 -
[2]
maybe give an example of one item/traderoute you did trade/use in the past - why did you select it? what did you expect? how/why were you disappointed?
what different strategies have you tried during these 3 months?
how much capital did you start out with?
what trade skills did you find useful?
what strategies would like to use but can't (because of ISK, skill or time limitations)?
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Sazkyen
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Posted - 2011.01.12 08:06:00 -
[3]
You can't beat .01 price adjuster bots.
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Nathan Jameson
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Posted - 2011.01.12 08:09:00 -
[4]
You must be approaching it wrong; I made my first bil .01 isking at Jita.
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egola
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.12 08:09:00 -
[5]
how exactly are you "breaking even"? for god's sake you can just find an item with a margin and just resell it for more, NEVER sell at-lost
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Minmatar Freedom
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Posted - 2011.01.12 08:19:00 -
[6]
An example would be the commodities run. I found an area selling Oxygen for ~200 ISK/u and I locked down an area about ten jumps out that had several buy orders out for 225 ISK/u, bought as much as I could, and moved it to sell. I did this for anywhere I could find things sold for less than I could sell them for somewhere else. I did make profit, but it was often negligible or I was limited by my cargo capacity (I flew a top-level Iteron with Cargo Expander II's fitted).
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.01.12 08:20:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 12/01/2011 08:22:26
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom An example would be the commodities run. I found an area selling Oxygen for ~200 ISK/u and I locked down an area about ten jumps out that had several buy orders out for 225 ISK/u, bought as much as I could, and moved it to sell. I did this for anywhere I could find things sold for less than I could sell them for somewhere else. I did make profit, but it was often negligible or I was limited by my cargo capacity (I flew a top-level Iteron with Cargo Expander II's fitted).
I think you might want to check the age of the many guides you read^^
edit: and most forms of trading revolve around buy through buy orders & selling with sell orders. Buy from sell & sell to buy is usually not necessary and often not profitable.
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egola
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.12 08:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom An example would be the commodities run. I found an area selling Oxygen for ~200 ISK/u and I locked down an area about ten jumps out that had several buy orders out for 225 ISK/u, bought as much as I could, and moved it to sell. I did this for anywhere I could find things sold for less than I could sell them for somewhere else. I did make profit, but it was often negligible or I was limited by my cargo capacity (I flew a top-level Iteron with Cargo Expander II's fitted).
okay theres inherently your problem, alot of the commodities run just aren't profitable anymore, ever since tyrannis and the removal of alot of the npc seeded pricing the commodities run are just bone dry of any margins. i know this, i used to be one of those few who being new, saw this as more profitable then actual trading or running missions (bestower rigged/cargo expander IIs w/ 22,000m3 on hydrogen batteries= 3-4 mil for 4 jumps) it just isn't worth it anymore, the margin has dropped to a pale 10% as opposed to the huge margin(and large npc buy orders) it used to have.
what you should do nowadays is to actually trade items whose price are completely unseeded and speculated. THOSE are the ones whose prices change, THOSE are the ones that generally have margins when doing intra-regional trading. another thing you can actually do is going full time hauling or full time trading. one quick isk lesson to learn is to know who or where something is needed, an example are storyline hubs, smaller trading hubs, manufacturing hubs, and heck even large missioning hubs that you can resell module at profit
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.12 09:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: egola
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom An example would be the commodities run. I found an area selling Oxygen for ~200 ISK/u and I locked down an area about ten jumps out that had several buy orders out for 225 ISK/u, bought as much as I could, and moved it to sell. I did this for anywhere I could find things sold for less than I could sell them for somewhere else. I did make profit, but it was often negligible or I was limited by my cargo capacity (I flew a top-level Iteron with Cargo Expander II's fitted).
okay theres inherently your problem, alot of the commodities run just aren't profitable anymore, ever since tyrannis and the removal of alot of the npc seeded pricing the commodities run are just bone dry of any margins. i know this, i used to be one of those few who being new, saw this as more profitable then actual trading or running missions (bestower rigged/cargo expander IIs w/ 22,000m3 on hydrogen batteries= 3-4 mil for 4 jumps) it just isn't worth it anymore, the margin has dropped to a pale 10% as opposed to the huge margin(and large npc buy orders) it used to have.
what you should do nowadays is to actually trade items whose price are completely unseeded and speculated. THOSE are the ones whose prices change, THOSE are the ones that generally have margins when doing intra-regional trading. another thing you can actually do is going full time hauling or full time trading. one quick isk lesson to learn is to know who or where something is needed, an example are storyline hubs, smaller trading hubs, manufacturing hubs, and heck even large missioning hubs that you can resell module at profit
Not that any info above is incorrecr but I have on thing to add. In this day and age in the game with freighters jumpfreigters carries doing most of the logistics the importance of the "closer to the frontier" small trading hubs is very diminished.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.12 10:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom An example would be the commodities run. I found an area selling Oxygen for ~200 ISK/u and I locked down an area about ten jumps out that had several buy orders out for 225 ISK/u, bought as much as I could, and moved it to sell. I did this for anywhere I could find things sold for less than I could sell them for somewhere else. I did make profit, but it was often negligible or I was limited by my cargo capacity (I flew a top-level Iteron with Cargo Expander II's fitted).
That's not trading, it's being a glorified space trucker and you are right that profession is not profitable, you make more running courier missions.
To make serious ISK you need to become a Market Maker somebody that places both buy and sell orders making your profit on the spread.
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Nathan Jameson
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Posted - 2011.01.12 11:26:00 -
[11]
If you can stomach another guide, here's one I wrote recently to help my wormhole commonwealth:
Creating an Alt Trader/Hauler/Marketeer
It handles the market character from a more casual approach, but most of the principles should still be the same. It's really not hard to make money.
(I'm also open for any sound advice or additions MD-goers wish to add to the article. Mine is by no means an end-all.)
Hope this helps.
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.01.12 11:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom I'm starting to think there really isn't any real profit to be made trading
Talk numbers, please: What's 'real profit' for you per day in terms of ISK ?
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Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.12 11:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 12/01/2011 11:53:07
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom or at least a joke played on the new players.
I've been trying to make a go at trading for almost three months now. I was a hardcore miner/industrialist and I made the switch to trading because it seemed like better money. Three months in and I'm still barely breaking even. I've read every guide and advice thread I can get my hands on and spend many long hours plugging away at this.
I'm starting to think there really isn't any real profit to be made trading and discussing it is basically a way to get new characters to schlep things for older players under the guise of making money.
I'm fully open to the possibility I've been doing it completely wrong and thus making no money, but after three months of hard work and following guides with nothing to show for it...
I once had my own cab. I was driving pretty good and the money was OK. Then I heard that racing drivers make even more money while not having to drive 8h a day (or so I thought). After three months of trying to make my way through the championship, I'm still finding myself at the bottom of the chart.
Conclusion: either you need more time, more practice or more talent.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.01.12 15:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Akita T on 12/01/2011 15:20:00
Hauling is not trading. What you're doing is hauling. Hauling is not very profitable. Trading however is. Very much so.
A litmus test : are you buying from sell orders and selling to buy orders, or are you instead buying with buy orders and selling with sell orders ? The former is hauling, the latter is trading. Hauling and trading can be combined optionally for extra profit, but usually the trading part pays a whole lot better. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Mas Cream
Monetary Allocation Certified Securities Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.12 15:33:00 -
[15]
When you can combine both trading and scamming, it's like watching puppies being born.
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.12 15:55:00 -
[16]
Well, did you calculate the trading formula for yourself?
(Total ammount isk + trading skills + age) * (IQ - 70) = Your skill in trading
Do it, if it's below zero, well, keep mining! ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Max Cetera
Capital Researchs Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.12 16:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Confuzer Well, did you calculate the trading formula for yourself?
(Total ammount isk + trading skills + age) * (IQ - 70) = Your skill in trading
Do it, if it's below zero, well, keep mining!
0.01 bots have above 70 IQ ?
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egola
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.12 16:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Pod Amarr
Originally by: egola
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom An example would be the commodities run. I found an area selling Oxygen for ~200 ISK/u and I locked down an area about ten jumps out that had several buy orders out for 225 ISK/u, bought as much as I could, and moved it to sell. I did this for anywhere I could find things sold for less than I could sell them for somewhere else. I did make profit, but it was often negligible or I was limited by my cargo capacity (I flew a top-level Iteron with Cargo Expander II's fitted).
okay theres inherently your problem, alot of the commodities run just aren't profitable anymore, ever since tyrannis and the removal of alot of the npc seeded pricing the commodities run are just bone dry of any margins. i know this, i used to be one of those few who being new, saw this as more profitable then actual trading or running missions (bestower rigged/cargo expander IIs w/ 22,000m3 on hydrogen batteries= 3-4 mil for 4 jumps) it just isn't worth it anymore, the margin has dropped to a pale 10% as opposed to the huge margin(and large npc buy orders) it used to have.
what you should do nowadays is to actually trade items whose price are completely unseeded and speculated. THOSE are the ones whose prices change, THOSE are the ones that generally have margins when doing intra-regional trading. another thing you can actually do is going full time hauling or full time trading. one quick isk lesson to learn is to know who or where something is needed, an example are storyline hubs, smaller trading hubs, manufacturing hubs, and heck even large missioning hubs that you can resell module at profit
Not that any info above is incorrecr but I have on thing to add. In this day and age in the game with freighters jumpfreigters carries doing most of the logistics the importance of the "closer to the frontier" small trading hubs is very diminished.
theres never a downside towards trading in those hubs, you can find great margins, sure it'll take you about half a week longer to resell but the margin reflects that.
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.12 16:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Max Cetera
Originally by: Confuzer Well, did you calculate the trading formula for yourself?
(Total ammount isk + trading skills + age) * (IQ - 70) = Your skill in trading
Do it, if it's below zero, well, keep mining!
0.01 bots have above 70 IQ ?
I don't know, but they do have and IQ of at least (IQ topic starter + x) with x > 0 ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Moffegreven Moff
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Posted - 2011.01.12 17:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom or at least a joke played on the new players.
I've been trying to make a go at trading for almost three months now. I was a hardcore miner/industrialist and I made the switch to trading because it seemed like better money. Three months in and I'm still barely breaking even. I've read every guide and advice thread I can get my hands on and spend many long hours plugging away at this.
I'm starting to think there really isn't any real profit to be made trading and discussing it is basically a way to get new characters to schlep things for older players under the guise of making money.
I'm fully open to the possibility I've been doing it completely wrong and thus making no money, but after three months of hard work and following guides with nothing to show for it...
Do not buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders. Essentially what you are doing is buying and selling from traders. This doesn't work, because we are not stupid.
You need to place a buy order lower then the competition on a high volume item and then wait to stock up, and then find a higher price to unload on. Essentially here you are buying and selling to non traders. This does work because they are stupid.
Also, just a little comment that might interest you. If you think trading on your own is difficult in this market, what do you think the cats in wall street are doing with mom and pop's life savings...
You're right its a scam, and its a game. The key is to PLAY the game.
Good luck!
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Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2011.01.12 17:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Moffegreven Moff
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom or at least a joke played on the new players.
I've been trying to make a go at trading for almost three months now. I was a hardcore miner/industrialist and I made the switch to trading because it seemed like better money. Three months in and I'm still barely breaking even. I've read every guide and advice thread I can get my hands on and spend many long hours plugging away at this.
I'm starting to think there really isn't any real profit to be made trading and discussing it is basically a way to get new characters to schlep things for older players under the guise of making money.
I'm fully open to the possibility I've been doing it completely wrong and thus making no money, but after three months of hard work and following guides with nothing to show for it...
Do not buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders. Essentially what you are doing is buying and selling from traders. This doesn't work, because we are not stupid.
You need to place a buy order lower then the competition on a high volume item and then wait to stock up, and then find a higher price to unload on. Essentially here you are buying and selling to non traders. This does work because they are stupid.
Also, just a little comment that might interest you. If you think trading on your own is difficult in this market, what do you think the cats in wall street are doing with mom and pop's life savings...
You're right its a scam, and its a game. The key is to PLAY the game.
Good luck!
I would argue most money is to be made from traders. The impatient and/or misinformed kind that is.
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Xia Zem
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Posted - 2011.01.12 17:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Moffegreven Moff
Originally by: Minmatar Freedom or at least a joke played on the new players.
I've been trying to make a go at trading for almost three months now. I was a hardcore miner/industrialist and I made the switch to trading because it seemed like better money. Three months in and I'm still barely breaking even. I've read every guide and advice thread I can get my hands on and spend many long hours plugging away at this.
I'm starting to think there really isn't any real profit to be made trading and discussing it is basically a way to get new characters to schlep things for older players under the guise of making money.
I'm fully open to the possibility I've been doing it completely wrong and thus making no money, but after three months of hard work and following guides with nothing to show for it...
Do not buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders. Essentially what you are doing is buying and selling from traders. This doesn't work, because we are not stupid.
You need to place a buy order lower then the competition on a high volume item and then wait to stock up, and then find a higher price to unload on. Essentially here you are buying and selling to non traders. This does work because they are stupid.
Also, just a little comment that might interest you. If you think trading on your own is difficult in this market, what do you think the cats in wall street are doing with mom and pop's life savings...
You're right its a scam, and its a game. The key is to PLAY the game.
Good luck!
I would argue most money is to be made from traders. The impatient and/or misinformed kind that is.
Shhh.
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letskicksomeass
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Posted - 2011.01.13 21:34:00 -
[23]
you have to spend time to research market, then its just a piece of cake, I was tired missioning, lost my last ship, took the few mil insurance and made money in no time, start small, go big, you as industrialist should know better what diff players need on market, at least more than a mission guy, MD was all I needed
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