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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.01.14 18:24:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/01/2011 18:35:19
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran In some cases it may just be the way the child is ...
So you are saying that children should be held responsible at any age, because they may be spawns of pure evil? --
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 18:48:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre Edited by: Louis deGuerre on 14/01/2011 14:40:45
I'm fine with US people wanting to hang to their guns, but I also am glad we have different laws over here.
EDIT : I have actually fired guns and it's a piece of cake.
And where is over here? Using an example of somewhere with heavy gun laws that have shown no appreciable effect in europe, look at england. they got rid of most of their guns, and now they just have an anti-knife campaign. "get a life, bin that knife!". And i watched an english movie, where the main character getting a knife was considered him having some sort of serious powerful weapon there, going out to kick some ass~.
Its pathetic ;_;
Hitting things with a rifle at close to medium ranges is not that hard. But a handgun sure is even at close ranges of 25 yards or so. You have to develop a good consistent stance and trigger pull before you are able to be good and consistent at hitting things.
Random violent street gangs are going to get weapons elsewhere regardless. So you have to look at the standard every day citizen. The majority of problems in this case come from simply people being stupid. The problem with this is that people are not trained/taught how to handle a gun, but instead learn from watching movies, this is a problem with not enough gun education, not too many guns. Then you have the people who go crazy and want to kill a bunch of people, and as i explained you don't need a gun to get a body count, in fact focusing on guns could potentially lower your body count, getting creative with other methods would be much better. Then you have things like someone who shoots their spouse because they were cheating on them, but if you are inclined to kill someone in that sort of situation you are going to be angry enough to not think to go get your gun but will just pick up the nearest handy object and smash them.
No, really, the number of legitimate situations where, had there been harsher gun laws an incident would not have happened, are scarce enough that there are a great number of vastly more dangerous every day activities that people aught to be complaining about.
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2011.01.14 18:52:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Vabjekf And i watched an english movie
Because movies are a great yardstick to make real world comparisons from.
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 18:54:00 -
[94]
They are in this case, since the movie is trying to create a believable atmosphere for the audience, the weight, importance, and significance which the movie asks you to place in a certain plot point should be somewhere around what the society which spawned it places on that thing.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.14 19:03:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Vabjekf They are in this case, since the movie is trying to create a believable atmosphere for the audience, the weight, importance, and significance which the movie asks you to place in a certain plot point should be somewhere around what the society which spawned it places on that thing.
Because the USA has no knife crime.
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Jhagiti Tyran
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Posted - 2011.01.14 19:09:00 -
[96]
So how exactly do the gun laws have no appreciable effect in the UK? I can go about my life with very little chance of being shot by an ex or by an enraged schoolkid and I don't have to worry about being shot walking down the street in a crossfire between a shop keeper and the crack head trying to rob him who have no experience or firearms training, I will likely never be shot by a cop who has pooped his pants after being attacked and fired off a whole clip but didn't actually hit the criminal he was shooting at.
People who support the gun madness in the US always claim that our laws make no difference when the reality is they do, most people in the UK will never even see a real firearm in person let alone be shot by one. Being able to go out and buy a gun would in no way enrich my life or give me any protection and I would rather take my chances at fending off an attacker that's waving a knife or baseball bat than a gun any day of the week.
The real issue in the US isn't the hardened criminals either the problem comes from the nutters or angry coworkers or jealous husbands or demented teenagers shooting up a school and that's the real cost of the gun madness, I mean c'mon the US didn't even get through the first month of the new year without a young child being killed in a mass shooting in a public place.
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 19:56:00 -
[97]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Vabjekf They are in this case, since the movie is trying to create a believable atmosphere for the audience, the weight, importance, and significance which the movie asks you to place in a certain plot point should be somewhere around what the society which spawned it places on that thing.
Because the USA has no knife crime.
The US has no term 'knife crime'. Some crimes involve knives, sure. But to call it 'knife crime' shifts the focus away from crime and towards the knife.
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 20:05:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran So how exactly do the gun laws have no appreciable effect in the UK? I can go about my life with very little chance of being shot by an ex or by an enraged schoolkid and I don't have to worry about being shot walking down the street in a crossfire between a shop keeper and the crack head trying to rob him who have no experience or firearms training, I will likely never be shot by a cop who has pooped his pants after being attacked and fired off a whole clip but didn't actually hit the criminal he was shooting at.
And i can go about my life with very little chance of being shot by someone as well.
Im not sure where you get the idea of cops though. Our police are still walking around with regular old handguns. Your police have gone from walking around with wooden clubs to carrying assault rifles.
Quote:
People who support the gun madness in the US always claim that our laws make no difference when the reality is they do, most people in the UK will never even see a real firearm in person let alone be shot by one.
Thats the same in the US. Only in rural areas are you likely to see a gun. Which is the same in the UK actually.
Quote:
Being able to go out and buy a gun would in no way enrich my life or give me any protection and I would rather take my chances at fending off an attacker that's waving a knife or baseball bat than a gun any day of the week.
You don't get to legislate what people attack you with, only what you can defend yourself with.
In many places in the US its actually easier/less of a hassle to buy a gun on the black market than it is to go into a gun shop. Of course law abiding citizens dont do that, they go through the extra hassle of filling out paperwork and waiting for weeks.
Quote:
The real issue in the US isn't the hardened criminals either the problem comes from the nutters or angry coworkers or jealous husbands or demented teenagers shooting up a school and that's the real cost of the gun madness, I mean c'mon the US didn't even get through the first month of the new year without a young child being killed in a mass shooting in a public place.
Ladders kill more people each year than crazy people or jealous spouses. And again, premeditated murder does not require a gun even to be 'easy'. Killing someone who knows you would not be difficult at all, and if you were smart you would not be using something that leaves behind potentially traceable forensic evidence.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.14 20:06:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 14/01/2011 20:07:50
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran So how exactly do the gun laws have no appreciable effect in the UK? I can go about my life with very little chance of being shot by an ex or by an enraged schoolkid and I don't have to worry about being shot walking down the street in a crossfire between a shop keeper and the crack head trying to rob him who have no experience or firearms training, I will likely never be shot by a cop who has pooped his pants after being attacked and fired off a whole clip but didn't actually hit the criminal he was shooting at.
People who support the gun madness in the US always claim that our laws make no difference when the reality is they do, most people in the UK will never even see a real firearm in person let alone be shot by one. Being able to go out and buy a gun would in no way enrich my life or give me any protection and I would rather take my chances at fending off an attacker that's waving a knife or baseball bat than a gun any day of the week.
The real issue in the US isn't the hardened criminals either the problem comes from the nutters or angry coworkers or jealous husbands or demented teenagers shooting up a school and that's the real cost of the gun madness, I mean c'mon the US didn't even get through the first month of the new year without a young child being killed in a mass shooting in a public place.
Those gun laws in the UK, at best, create a drop in the homicide rate of about .03 out of 1000 population in the UK as compaired to the US rate. However grotesque these incidences are that type of decrease does not justify the massive undertaking that would be required to remove all guns from US citizens.
Homicide is the 15th leading cause of death in the US. There are much more severe things that resources should be funneled into then removing guns from the hands of the US population and people that think this solution is the correct course of action just show how unfamiliar they are with death&dying and the US culture.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.01.14 20:39:00 -
[100]
The UK managed to get through January without a mass shooting, even the whole previous year we only had one massacre and that guy owned his firearms lawfully.
I agree its to late to fix it in the US the damage is done you could never get even a fraction of the guns off the streets I just don't understand how you can defend and people always claim they can miraculously turn into Jason Statham and pwn anybody who attacked them with a gun with their own gun even though they have no combat training and pretty much every documentary I have seen shows that when people start shooting in self defense it either achieves nothing or ends up in a bystander getting hit, trained soldiers can have difficulty reacting quickly and effectively to a surprise combat situation until they gain a lot of experience but Steve from accounting thinks he can defend himself this way.
Even if you happen to be a bona fide green beret that served for 20 years and trust yourself to react would you have enough faith in a store worker that is scared out of his wits by an armed robber to be able to hit the robber and not accidentally shoot you or your family member as you fill up your car with petrol?
The same goes with the police, they are just as likely to hit their colleagues or members of the public than the criminal.
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 20:50:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran The UK managed to get through January without a mass shooting, even the whole previous year we only had one massacre and that guy owned his firearms lawfully.
The UK is a lot smaller. Just how common do you think mass shootings are in the US?!
Quote:
I agree its to late to fix it in the US the damage is done you could never get even a fraction of the guns off the streets
You dont think there are russian guns floating around your black market as well? You are even more conviniently located for easy export ~_^
Quote: I just don't understand how you can defend and people always claim they can miraculously turn into Jason Statham and pwn anybody who attacked them with a gun with their own gun even though they have no combat training and pretty much every documentary I have seen shows that when people start shooting in self defense it either achieves nothing or ends up in a bystander getting hit
A few things. 1. If someone is attacking you with something you want something that is at least equal (and ideally more powerful) to defend yourself with. The ideal situation is not being attacked in the first place, but if you are then you will use whatever means you have at your disposal to defend yourself. 2. I agree that if anyone wants to have a handgun for the sake of self defense they need to make sure they practice with it constantly, as ive said elsewhere a handgun with no skills to use it is potentially dangerous to yourself, as is a lawn mower. 3. I saw a documentary about how aliens helped build the pyramids.
Quote: trained soldiers can have difficulty reacting quickly and effectively to a surprise combat situation until they gain a lot of experience but Steve from accounting thinks he can defend himself this way.
So he should just give up and wait to see if the attacker decides to spare him or not?
Quote:
Even if you happen to be a bona fide green beret that served for 20 years and trust yourself to react would you have enough faith in a store worker that is scared out of his wits by an armed robber to be able to hit the robber and not accidentally shoot you or your family member as you fill up your car with petrol?
All you are doing is illustrating why people should take their own defense MORE seriously and spend time training/preparing for it.
You seem to think we have a situation here where there are two possibilities. 1: Someone attacks you and you have a gun 2: nobody attacked you in the first place
That's not how it works.
Quote:
The same goes with the police, they are just as likely to hit their colleagues or members of the public than the criminal.
Well the idea is that they are trained well enough to handle situations, but yeah, unfortunately police are not always very skilled at their job, all the more reason to take defense into your own hands
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Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.01.14 21:00:00 -
[102]
Training is only part of it, you can spend months or years being trained and practicing how to handle a firearm but it cannot prepare you for actually having to use it in anger.
I would rather not place my life in the hands of a random stranger and would rather see them hand over the money and call the police.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.14 21:17:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Vabjekf
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran The UK managed to get through January without a mass shooting, even the whole previous year we only had one massacre and that guy owned his firearms lawfully.
The UK is a lot smaller. Just how common do you think mass shootings are in the US?!
You get them every single year, last year it seemed almost every month there was a mass shooting of some kind. The last school mass shooting we had in the UK was well over a decade ago.
Also knife crime is where you use a knife so it makes sense to call it a knife crime for the records. You cannot compare gun crime in the US to knife crime here, you have to go with knife crime vs knife crime statistics and the same with guns.
Also Also the only armed police are, well, the armed police. The every day bobby who make up the bulk do not carry guns or tazers. We do however still have mounted police who turn up at football matches and large rabbles of students
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.01.14 21:44:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran The UK managed to get through January without a mass shooting, even the whole previous year we only had one massacre and that guy owned his firearms lawfully.
The US is a larger country and there will be statistically more shootings per year than in the UK. --
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 21:53:00 -
[105]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Vabjekf
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran The UK managed to get through January without a mass shooting, even the whole previous year we only had one massacre and that guy owned his firearms lawfully.
The UK is a lot smaller. Just how common do you think mass shootings are in the US?!
You get them every single year, last year it seemed almost every month there was a mass shooting of some kind. The last school mass shooting we had in the UK was well over a decade ago.
Is that what your news is telling you? I suppose we can leave it to them to find every little incident and blow it out of proportion to emphasize how much safer you are that the government has disarmed you.
I assure you those are statistically few compared to the gang related violence which is simply not interesting enough to report on i guess.
Quote:
Also knife crime is where you use a knife so it makes sense to call it a knife crime for the records. You cannot compare gun crime in the US to knife crime here, you have to go with knife crime vs knife crime statistics and the same with guns.
So you see no connection with harsher gun laws in the UK and the "growing knife crime"?
A gun is a ranged hammer. Its a tool which applies kinetic force, nothing more.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.01.14 21:58:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran Even if you happen to be a bona fide green beret that served for 20 years and trust yourself to react would you have enough faith in a store worker that is scared out of his wits by an armed robber to be able to hit the robber and not accidentally shoot you or your family member as you fill up your car with petrol?
A military specialist can have a trauma just like any other person. In fact, they are more at risk of a trauma than a civilian. The effect of a war trauma is however likely different than from a trauma a school teenager might go through.
Quote: The same goes with the police, they are just as likely to hit their colleagues or members of the public than the criminal.
No. You can train your aim, but you cannot train for a traumatic experience. --
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.14 22:22:00 -
[107]
Edited by: baltec1 on 14/01/2011 22:26:55
Originally by: Vabjekf
Is that what your news is telling you? I suppose we can leave it to them to find every little incident and blow it out of proportion to emphasize how much safer you are that the government has disarmed you.
I assure you those are statistically few compared to the gang related violence which is simply not interesting enough to report on i guess.
Its hard to report on a mass school shooting if it doesn't happen. The simple fact is you get a number of these things year in year out. We don't.
Quote:
Also knife crime is where you use a knife so it makes sense to call it a knife crime for the records. You cannot compare gun crime in the US to knife crime here, you have to go with knife crime vs knife crime statistics and the same with guns.
So you see no connection with harsher gun laws in the UK and the "growing knife crime"?
A gun is a ranged hammer. Its a tool which applies kinetic force, nothing more.
No I see a culture in which guns are not wanted.
Lets see the US records for knife crime and UK knife crime before jumping to conclutions.
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 22:57:00 -
[108]
So you honestly do not see how removing guns could cause an increase in other sorts of weapons being used? Why do we need to compare things to the US when im talking about 'knife crimes' both before and after the UK got strict on guns. According to some official survey or another (TAKP, i have no idea what that means) '25% of people know someone who has been a victim of knife crime'. I certainly dont know anyone who has ever been stabbed, or shot for that matter. I know of one relative who was stabbed once, decades ago.
Looking at guns in the united states again. The state with the highest rate of murder per capita has the STRICTEST GUN LAWS! If you look at the states with the lowest murders per capita most of them have very lax gun laws.
Its really a matter of responsibility. If you don't give people any, people will not be responsible. The best way to make someone safe with a gun is to give them a gun. Inform people of the weight of responsibility they have, and they will be much more responsible. Be a nanny state and don't be surprised if your citizens run around like children squabbling, only with more adult toys.
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Nebulous
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.14 22:58:00 -
[109]
Oh look! Another pointless internet gun arguement.
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 23:09:00 -
[110]
And here are some interesting statistics, speaking of schools.
In the US, a 2007 survey showed that 7% of teachers report having been threatened by students.
In the UK, a 2007 a survey found that 16% of teachers HAD BEEN ASSAULTED within the last 2 years.
Maybe UK schools are so violent there are no notable violent incidents that contrast business as usual
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Nebulous
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.14 23:17:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Vabjekf And here are some interesting statistics, speaking of schools.
In the US, a 2007 survey showed that 7% of teachers report having been threatened by students.
In the UK, a 2007 a survey found that 16% of teachers HAD BEEN ASSAULTED within the last 2 years.
Maybe UK schools are so violent there are no notable violent incidents that contrast business as usual
In a survey compiled by me I found that %51 of the worlds population prefer Apples to Oranges....... FACT!
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.14 23:19:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Vabjekf So you honestly do not see how removing guns could cause an increase in other sorts of weapons being used? Why do we need to compare things to the US when im talking about 'knife crimes' both before and after the UK got strict on guns. According to some official survey or another (TAKP, i have no idea what that means) '25% of people know someone who has been a victim of knife crime'. I certainly dont know anyone who has ever been stabbed, or shot for that matter. I know of one relative who was stabbed once, decades ago.
I also dont know anyone who has been stabbed. I do know someone who was hit by an RPG though.... Well bits of one.
Originally by: Vabjekf And here are some interesting statistics, speaking of schools.
In the US, a 2007 survey showed that 7% of teachers report having been threatened by students.
In the UK, a 2007 a survey found that 16% of teachers HAD BEEN ASSAULTED within the last 2 years.
Maybe UK schools are so violent there are no notable violent incidents that contrast business as usual
Nothing to do with guns or knives. Its the explosion in the chav population and the fact the last government took away all power from teachers to disiplin these little twerps.
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Nebulous
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.14 23:21:00 -
[113]
Originally by: baltec1 Boring stuff
Yes but what does any of that have to do with the Apples Vs Oranges debate?
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Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.01.14 23:28:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran on 14/01/2011 23:30:13 Raw statistics mean nothing unless you have some context like the social and economic conditions of the different regions as those are a much bigger factor in the causes of crime and the types of crime committed than simply the availability of weapons.
Originally by: Vabjekf And here are some interesting statistics, speaking of schools.
In the US, a 2007 survey showed that 7% of teachers report having been threatened by students.
In the UK, a 2007 a survey found that 16% of teachers HAD BEEN ASSAULTED within the last 2 years.
Maybe UK schools are so violent there are no notable violent incidents that contrast business as usual
Yep imagine how much better it would be if they had guns to
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.14 23:29:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Nebulous
Originally by: baltec1 Boring stuff
Yes but what does any of that have to do with the Apples Vs Oranges debate?
Nothing but I must vent because my glorious Hyperion just got fragged
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FOl2TY8
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.15 01:08:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Dultas I'll tell you who I blame, the shooter, end of discussion.
I blame Christianity.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Malevolence. Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2011.01.15 01:22:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Vabjekf And where is over here?
In Amsterdam, with probably the highest crime rate in the Netherlands. We had 16 murders last year in a city of 800.000 people. Of course we get people getting robbed, knifed or otherwise assaulted, but even that is pretty rare. Someone getting shot is (luckily) still a major event here. In the whole country (population 16 million) we had 170 murders in 2010. Could be worse.
----- Malevolence. is recruiting. Dive into the world of 0.0 !
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Scorpyn
Warp Ghosts Omega Spectres of the Deep
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Posted - 2011.01.15 01:40:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus Should gaming companies such as CCP be held partially responsible for the acts of marginal members of society - or will they hide behind concepts such as 'free speech' or EULA? ... ... ...and I hope CCP does whatever it can to prevent further bloodshed.
I don't think I will ever understand this. An individual does something insane, and instantly lots of ppl start blaming others, anybody but the idiot who did it. Society, the government, film creators, film distributors, game creators, Sony, The Beatles etc. Nobody is safe from taking the blame from random idiots.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.01.15 04:23:00 -
[119]
He was just like your average Eve pirate!
Originally by: Jada Maroo Many legitimate news stories over the past few years would not have been brought to the forefront if not for Fox News.
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Zindela
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.01.15 05:16:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus Wall Street Journal Article
This makes me wonder how many Eve players out there are ticking time bombs - just waiting to go off.
What steps should CCP take to tone down the hateful eliminationist imagery that can trigger troubled individuals to commit terrible acts of violence like this one?
Should gaming companies such as CCP be held partially responsible for the acts of marginal members of society - or will they hide behind concepts such as 'free speech' or EULA?
My condolences to those injured and killed in this terrible attack, and I hope CCP does whatever it can to prevent further bloodshed.
Short reply, No.
Longer reply:
Personally, I don't think that violent videogames have much of an effect on the human psyche. However, having said that, I'm not a psychiatric, and have never actually taken a psychology course. I am speaking from personal experience, and experiences with my friends. ALL of my friends, and I play some of the most violent games out there. The ones that encourage you to be a total *******, to lie, steal, cheat, your way to survive.
This could be influenced by the fact that we are above the general intelligence of the general population, and know the difference between real, and virtual, but I think it has more to do with other things. The only way games have influenced me in violent ways, has been to expand my knowledge about military tech, and possible future tech as well. I realize much of this is purely fiction, but I'm studying to be an engineer, and many of our discussions about the specific game are actually based around how it might be possible to actually implement the tech in the future.
If anything, games have furthered our curiosity into the unknown. I'm not advocating that people be incentivised (not actually a word, but I like the sound) to play games, but that games have become a medium for humans to expand on ideas, become more creative, and explore their own intellectual limits, purely from the perspective of their basement chair. -------------------
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Guess what I'm wearing.
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