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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.14 03:46:00 -
[1]
Tl;dr click here
I apologize in advance for the poor website choice. Eve-files seems to be giving me some trouble. If someone would be so bold as to repost the document to eve-files and post a link that would be great.
1. The Premise
Everyone loves a good loot drop. But they're rare right? Too often do we see posts of the nature "exploration is broken, patch broke drops, DED plexes got nerfed, etc." This is in most cases a failure to understand the RNG of eve and the fact that while you may have only got overseer effects on that 4/10 or received no escalation on your unrated plex, there are plenty of others who ran those same sites and hit the jackpot and got a full escalation + jackpot respectively.
Now for many people who explore casually, the one drop they get is pure luck. They did it once, got lucky, great. For others, they start to realize that drops come and go, escalations dead end sometimes but eventually you'll get that full escalation and gold at the end of the rainbow.
For me, I began to realize that, go figure, the more I explored, the more stuff I got. Moreover, the more sites I actually found, the more stuff I got. ItÆs simple probability. Common sense that seems to be amiss. Imagine the lottery. Are your chances of winning better with 1 ticket or 100 tickets? Common sense of course says 100 is better than 1. Thus it became my goal toàfind more sites.
2. Research
My journey began on the forums. I recalled a thread from around the beginnings of Apocrypha discussing signature sizes and things of that nature. The exact thread can be found here. In short, the author discovered that there was a certain amount of ôsignature sizesö and these correlated to ôtarget strengthsö which were modified based on the users skill/gear/implants. Unable to find anything but an image of her excel sheet, I set about to reinvent the wheel so to speak it was time to rediscover ancient works of a great scholar.
I cannot thank you enough, Miss Moonwych, for your contribution to my work.
3. Experimentation
Initially I did not have the skills for deep space probes, but I assumed that core scanners would work in this theorized ôfilteringö mechanism. A futile effort ensued and I was quickly assured that I would have to wait for the skill to finish. To my discovery, core scanner probes and deep space probes are significantly different. Yes the obvious difference is the maximum range, 32 AU v. 256 AU. But what I discovered (and perhaps is common knowledge; alas I was but a noob) was that Deep Space Probes have a significantly lower base sensor strength. In fact, they have a measly 5 base sensor strength, compared to the vastly superior core scanner probe with its 40 base sensor strength.
Based on my rudimentary understanding of the scanning mechanics, I reasoned that perhaps due to the higher sensor strength of core probes, they were more susceptible to ônoise.ö Thus the ôtarget strengthsö that would show up at a 32 AU scan would be vastly different each time, due to the noise associated with varying distances to the signature being scanned.
When Astrometrics 5 finished, I had Deep Space Probes ready to go. Based on my conclusions, I theorized that a 256 AU probe would allow me to do two things. First, I would be able to scan an entire system at once. Very nice. More importantly however, the low sensor strength of the probe would allow me to have consistent results regardless of probe position in relation to signatures in the system.
The hypothesis proved correct. I found that in each system I checked, the results I was uncovering were revealing a pattern.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.14 03:49:00 -
[2]
4. Practical Application
The next step was determining what strengths correlated to what sites. I embarked on a furious mission to find as many ôdifferentö sites as I could. DED complexes, watches, vigils, hideouts (I was sticking to high security space, yes). Each time I found a site that I was interested in (only combats as I have no interest in radar/ladar/grav/mag), I noted the SIG ID, reset my scanner and rescanned the system with a 256 AU Deep Space probe, annotating the results for the noted SIG ID. Furthermore, I expanded beyond Caldari Space, visiting Gallente and Amarr. Nicely enough, Sansha Watch and Gurista Watch have the same result. This consistency showed to be true throughout the various faction spaces.
A list began to form. Soon I was able to filter out much of the junk that I wanted nothing to do with and get watches, 4/10s and vigils constantly. The loot began to pour in as I found more and more sites at a much faster result than before I had been using Deep Space Probes.
5. The Sheet
A final problem arose. I was getting better gear, better skills. Thus, my initial signatures from the DSP scan were changing. I needed to formulate a way to account for this. Additionally, I wanted to share this stuff with my friends so they too could enjoy the plunder. Thus I created this sheet. I am no mathematician and nor am I exceptionally skilled in Excel. My basic premise was to find an equation that converted my known results for specific sites (signature sizes) to whatever the user input.
The sheet is a work in progress and does not account for anything outside of high security space. It also does not account for virtue implants (I got lazy). I myself have nearly completed it in terms of combat sites, but this release will only contain high security combat sites. I leave it up to the community to use it as they will.
Take note that this method of filtering is not fool proof. Yes you will still find radar/ladar/whatever when you are searching for the signature that correlates to DED 4/10. The point is that you will not find DED 4/10 at anything other than its prescribed signature.
I hope you all enjoy my story and if not, at least enjoy this spreadsheet. Much credit goes to Miss Moonwych for her previous work in this field.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.14 03:55:00 -
[3]
It works:
Check the Contracts of Liliana Rahl. She is my market alt and handles all of my contracts as of this past October. Her list of completed contracts is by no means "mere luck." It is the result of me running countless sites. Time after time I had faction spawns with tags and ammo, no escalation or only overseer effects. But, if you run enough sites, you'll win the prize.
Furthermore, I explore in Caldari space almost exclusively, Lonetrek in particular. I scour the region for an hour or two, literally hitting every high security system in an evening. Basically, I look forward to seeing more competition in the "busiest" regions soon
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Missm Uppet
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 07:32:00 -
[4]
<sarcasm>Thanks</sarcasm>
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:00:00 -
[5]
You can do this without a sheet if you have a good memory, and is obvious to most.
Out of all the explorers I know, it seems Caladri space is packed full of watches, vigils and DED's. Once while I was grinding for the Caldari epic, I stopped for a bit and did some scanning, I found a Radar with battleships, in high sec, and a decent drop ( 100 mil worth ).
In Amarr space each of the constellations are huge, but they are just as full with sites, you just have to hit more systems.
I never really scanned in Mini space, but Gallente I have a lot. Even in small constellations, you can go through 10 systems with maybe only one or two sigs, usually wormholes.
The rewards, also are unbalanced. Guristas Watch, Shield amps, hardeners and other crusier sized parts C-type to A-type. Serpentis Watch, if you are lucky enough to get to the end, A-type frigate modules.
Sansha / Blood 4/10, Corpum mods, Serpentis 4/10, Corelum mods. No one wants Corelum mods, they are all pretty crap.
So not only do Gallente get crap all lvl4 Highsec agents, they get screwed on the Exploration as well. Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:22:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Missm Uppet <sarcasm>Thanks</sarcasm>
I'm not going to lie. This is probably the biggest reason I finally decided to post this. I'm sure many others will be upset as well but, someone had to do it.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:28:00 -
[7]
Nice work!
Though, tbh, when you look at the mechanics, it isn't hard to deduce how the DSP can be advantageous when it comes to filtering signature strength and attributing it to certain signature types. Iirc, they can already do this with the core probes and identifying WH to a certain extent.
It was a secret hidden in plain view for most explorers.
tl;dr train Astrometrics V naaaouw!
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: syphurous You can do this without a sheet if you have a good memory, and is obvious to most.
Out of all the explorers I know, it seems Caladri space is packed full of watches, vigils and DED's. Once while I was grinding for the Caldari epic, I stopped for a bit and did some scanning, I found a Radar with battleships, in high sec, and a decent drop ( 100 mil worth ).
In Amarr space each of the constellations are huge, but they are just as full with sites, you just have to hit more systems.
I never really scanned in Mini space, but Gallente I have a lot. Even in small constellations, you can go through 10 systems with maybe only one or two sigs, usually wormholes.
The rewards, also are unbalanced. Guristas Watch, Shield amps, hardeners and other crusier sized parts C-type to A-type. Serpentis Watch, if you are lucky enough to get to the end, A-type frigate modules.
Sansha / Blood 4/10, Corpum mods, Serpentis 4/10, Corelum mods. No one wants Corelum mods, they are all pretty crap.
So not only do Gallente get crap all lvl4 Highsec agents, they get screwed on the Exploration as well.
Serpentis are also the easiest to tank - just 2 damage types, unlike angels or drones no missiles and short-range, unlike guristas and drones no neuting that could kill your tank, unlike bloods |
Loraine Gess
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: syphurous
The rewards, also are unbalanced. Guristas Watch, Shield amps, hardeners and other crusier sized parts C-type to A-type. Serpentis Watch, if you are lucky enough to get to the end, A-type frigate modules.
Yeah when you pull A-type cruiser mods out of high-sec let me know.
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: FlameGlow Serpentis are also the easiest to tank - just 2 damage types, unlike angels or drones no missiles and short-range, unlike guristas and drones no neuting that could kill your tank, unlike bloods
Guristas, Kin/ Therm tank ( identical to a Serp tank ) Sansha / Blood / Drones, EM / Therm Angels, Explo / Kin
I've run most of them all in an Ishtar. Armor tanked. When it comes to bloods, out range the nos.
Yeah, Serp damping you down to 5km doesn't affect you at all
Drone DED's aren't worth doing except 5/10 and above, and then the payout can be horrifically crap.
They all have their niggles, but they are all about as hard as each other, though the Bloods take longer due to having to actually move. Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
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Mavnas
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Posted - 2011.01.14 09:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: syphurous stuff
Serpentis 4/10 drops an EANM worth about 150m. It's not particularly rare either.
I pulled a low-grade slave epsilon out of a really wimpy site today. (I want to say it was a Lookout?) So I basically run all sigs in a system.
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AstarothPrime
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Posted - 2011.01.14 10:29:00 -
[12]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Serpentis are also the easiest to tank - just 2 damage types, unlike angels or drones no missiles and short-range, unlike guristas and drones no neuting that could kill your tank, unlike bloods
Anything is easy to tank actually. Specially if you are flying best PVE boats - caldari.
Ewar is screwed. Id personally pick tracking disruption and neuting over sensor damp any day. And I would pick sensor damp, tracking disruption AND neuting at the same time over guristas ECM any day as well.
Guristas are the worst and their ECM
I.
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 13:29:00 -
[13]
I thought this was already common knowledge?
Well, i dont think ive ever seen it explained as completely as here, but everyone talking about deep space probes and 'know your signal strengths' kind of lets anyone who knows much about scanning figure it out.
I will admit i wish i read this yesterday as i spent a few hours the other day trying to do it with 32au probes and realizing that the variation was too large. Looking at the strengths of the probes and realizing that deep space is only 5, i quickly came to the same assumption you did.
Oh well. I need to train one more level of astrometrics then.
Until then im just writing down what the sites i scan are, so i can ignore them as i go through those systems again. ^_^
I don't think it matters, while there are a lot of people who do various types of exploration, most people still continue mission running. I guess they like the safer consistent income. I just love moving blue spheres around and zeroing in on signals
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Salliene
Gallente Happy Unicorn Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.14 16:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
I'm not going to lie. This is probably the biggest reason I finally decided to post this. I'm sure many others will be upset as well but, someone had to do it.
Probably 5 people will read this and start doing it. The general EVE populace has proven time and again to be highly averse to anything other than a "push button, receive reward" style of game play. Most EVE players would probably have 25-50% more ISK in their wallet if they would take the time to use sell orders instead of just doing "right click - sell", but that's extra work!
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Aureus
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Posted - 2011.01.14 17:03:00 -
[15]
Just wanted to say Thank You for this nice explanation!
I was already interested in exploration and Im currently almost done with Astrometrics IV. Now I know to continue it to V as before I read this post I was intent at keeping it at IV.
Cant wait to actually do some exploration!
How hard are these sites you go after - the 4/10 plexes? Are they comparable to L4 missions? Harder?
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Loraine Gess
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Posted - 2011.01.14 17:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Aureus Just wanted to say Thank You for this nice explanation!
I was already interested in exploration and Im currently almost done with Astrometrics IV. Now I know to continue it to V as before I read this post I was intent at keeping it at IV.
Cant wait to actually do some exploration!
How hard are these sites you go after - the 4/10 plexes? Are they comparable to L4 missions? Harder?
You can do a 4/10 in your standard 2 BCU/2 SPR 2 drake with invulns. Add a third SPR (or specific hardeners) for bloods/sansha, otherwise you're good.
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KWyz
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Posted - 2011.01.14 18:59:00 -
[17]
There are plenty of solutions for highsec exploration. But I believe the all-in-one wonder is, of course, the Tengu.
The ability to scan and immediately run the site, while scanning for more at the same time, is unparalleled(unless of course you are using another t3 cruiser, loki and proteus are both competitive for highsec, as long as you use the scan strenght subsystem).
Also, I feel the need to point out to the OP that from my experience with 0.0 exploration sites, the SAME rules apply completely. All that we need now is someone with the time to investigate it all...personally i find myself in no rush whatsoever to scan sites. If I have to hurry, it ain't worth it anymore, my fun comes from doing things my way, and in 0.0 things are often quiet enough to let you do just that.
A small note: if anyone is mortified by the prospect of sites getting scanned down faster and faster, fear not. Exploration sites cannot be depleted, once a complex is run it will respawn somewhere...I don't know if that is instantaneous or if it has a cooldown, neither can I say if the respawn happens in the same constellation, or even region.
But they DO respawn, and quickly enough so that us carebears who don't have the skills/mood for missioning will be able to support themselves via exploration. Heck, i've been doing it since my second month in the game. Good luck out there!
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Kaede Walker
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Posted - 2011.01.15 00:10:00 -
[18]
Ok, random question, how are the sites on your spreadsheet grouped? im having trouble figuring out which calculation is for which site. 0.o thanks!
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.15 00:52:00 -
[19]
Start at the top.
Green is a new strength, everything between that (to the right) and the next green falls under the green number above.
So for the top one, Hideout and Haunted Yard both fall under it. Lookout falls under the next strength, etc.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.15 00:55:00 -
[20]
A quick note:
For those that just want to use my strength converter and not necessarily input their gear and skills, you could use EFT to identify the probe strength. Simply right click the launcher in EFT and "show charge info" or something like that. Then just type that number below "Calculated Deep Space Probe Strength. Until I modify it for virtue implants, this is the only way to account for it on the sheet.
You could also use the in-game "show charge info" feature, but I believe it rounds the value, thus your results may be less accurate.
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Kaede Walker
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Posted - 2011.01.15 01:17:00 -
[21]
so, just to clarify: hideout and haunted yard have the same probe strength lookout and ded 3/10 the third green value has nothing underneath it watch, ded 4/10 and chemical yard have the same vigil has its own and the last green has no value underneath it?
or do the green ones act as bookends, like hideout signature size can be between the first and second green ones, etc?
Thanks!
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.15 01:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kaede Walker so, just to clarify: hideout and haunted yard have the same probe strength lookout and ded 3/10 the third green value has nothing underneath it watch, ded 4/10 and chemical yard have the same vigil has its own and the last green has no value underneath it?
This is correct.
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Kaede Walker
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Posted - 2011.01.15 02:16:00 -
[23]
Thank You very much! :D
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Boltorano
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
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Posted - 2011.01.15 04:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: syphurous
I never really scanned in Mini space, but Gallente I have a lot. Even in small constellations, you can go through 10 systems with maybe only one or two sigs, usually wormholes.
They're hiding, somewhere lonely.
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Zarbane
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Posted - 2011.01.15 06:43:00 -
[25]
tagged
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.01.15 11:56:00 -
[26]
Can anyone else share their experience with wormhole signatures?
My short excursion today indicates that K162s have the same signal strength as Lookouts & DED 3/10 plexes.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2011.01.15 13:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Boltorano
Originally by: syphurous
I never really scanned in Mini space, but Gallente I have a lot. Even in small constellations, you can go through 10 systems with maybe only one or two sigs, usually wormholes.
They're hiding, somewhere lonely.
Solitude! ---
☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻ |
Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.15 13:29:00 -
[28]
tl;dr - You figured something out most pre-apoc explorers knew forever.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.01.15 16:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Spectre Wraith tl;dr - You figured something out most pre-apoc explorers knew forever.
Thats funny cause this wasn't possible pre-Apoc
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Voith
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Posted - 2011.01.15 16:51:00 -
[30]
I was hoping this would be something useful.
Like the fact that Lonetrek is bugged and you get low-sec/null-sec exploration sites even in .8 systems.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.15 16:56:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Voith I was hoping this would be something useful.
Like the fact that Lonetrek is bugged and you get low-sec/null-sec exploration sites even in .8 systems.
Its not a bug. The final part of Watch/Vigil is always in low sec for every pirate faction. Occasionally the earlier parts will send you through low sec to get to a part (usually if you start in a high sec island like the Ossa pocket.
The final parts of the Annexes in low sec are in 0.0 I believe as well.
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Voith
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Posted - 2011.01.15 17:08:00 -
[32]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Voith I was hoping this would be something useful.
Like the fact that Lonetrek is bugged and you get low-sec/null-sec exploration sites even in .8 systems.
Its not a bug. The final part of Watch/Vigil is always in low sec for every pirate faction. Occasionally the earlier parts will send you through low sec to get to a part (usually if you start in a high sec island like the Ossa pocket.
The final parts of the Annexes in low sec are in 0.0 I believe as well.
No I mean that in some Lonetrek systems you get Radar/mag/Exploration sites that should only spawn in low/nullsec.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.15 17:14:00 -
[33]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 15/01/2011 17:14:43 Edited by: XXSketchxx on 15/01/2011 17:14:33
Originally by: Voith
No I mean that in some Lonetrek systems you get Radar/mag/Exploration sites that should only spawn in low/nullsec.
Ah okay, my mistake. I do know of one radar that spawns Battleships. How do you know that is a bug?
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.15 17:16:00 -
[34]
Originally by: De Guantanamo
Originally by: Spectre Wraith tl;dr - You figured something out most pre-apoc explorers knew forever.
Thats funny cause this wasn't possible pre-Apoc
yes it was, but you needed to get a hit first with quest probes at least to figure out the signal strength |
Voith
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Posted - 2011.01.15 17:40:00 -
[35]
Originally by: XXSketchxx Edited by: XXSketchxx on 15/01/2011 17:14:43 Edited by: XXSketchxx on 15/01/2011 17:14:33
Originally by: Voith
No I mean that in some Lonetrek systems you get Radar/mag/Exploration sites that should only spawn in low/nullsec.
Ah okay, my mistake. I do know of one radar that spawns Battleships. How do you know that is a bug?
I'm not referring to the Local Gurista Life Support Array. True, it could be intentional, but I doubt it. More likely just more evidence of CCP's neglect of exploration.
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Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.15 19:28:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Spectre Wraith on 15/01/2011 19:30:41 Edited by: Spectre Wraith on 15/01/2011 19:29:18
Originally by: De Guantanamo
Originally by: Spectre Wraith tl;dr - You figured something out most pre-apoc explorers knew forever.
Thats funny cause this wasn't possible pre-Apoc
It wasn't "100% hit everytime" back then, you had to get a hit first, of course. Nearly every "old timer" that's been involved in exploration for any decent length of time has put 2 and 2 together and seen the correlation between sig strength and the actual site.
You also didn't need to use a DS probe to figure this out. Combat probes work just as well for this, once sigs begin to fall outside 75% or more of the probes radius the strength begins to dissipate. You can counter that by moving the probe to the outer planets for more accurate strength readings.
It's one of a number of tricks, tips, super-secret, exploration mechanics. Although I always considered it common sense...people that couldn't figure out that sig strength related to the site itself and that sites have specific strengths aren't the brightest anyways.
One of the best things about exploration is that the ones who invested the most time and found out all of the little tricks/methods deserved them. And there's still plenty of them. ;)
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Zaknussem
Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2011.01.15 21:39:00 -
[37]
This is awesome information, thanks for that.
One question though: What about RSS probes? Do you plan to add them later? |
XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.15 21:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zaknussem
One question though: What about RSS probes? Do you plan to add them later?
There is no reason to add RSS probes or sisters probes.
The faction core scanner versions would suffer the same results as regular Core scanner probes (described in the op) and the sisters deep space probes do not give an increase in strength.
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trjcquee
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Posted - 2011.01.15 22:41:00 -
[39]
So where do you position the DSP? At the star, or as far away as possible while still covering all the planets? Does it matter? |
XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.15 23:20:00 -
[40]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 15/01/2011 23:21:01
Originally by: trjcquee So where do you position the DSP? At the star, or as far away as possible while still covering all the planets? Does it matter?
My process is as follows
1. Jump into system 2. Align to next gate 3. Drop probe 4. Scan
If there is a signal I like
5. Deactivate DSP. 6. Swap to Core scanners and scan it down.
Use DSP to check if signal suddenly vanishes (someone completes site). Swap back to DSP on first scan
If there is no signal I wish to scan
5. Recall, warp to next gate. 6. Back to step 1.
Tl;dr Position does not matter due to the low sensor strength of DSP.
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trjcquee
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Posted - 2011.01.15 23:32:00 -
[41]
Originally by: XXSketchxx Tl;dr Position does not matter due to the low sensor strength of DSP.
Thanks a lot for this info. I like it when cats escape from bags Now my only fear is that CCP will nerf the skill requirements for DSP right after I spend a couple of weeks training Astro 5. Has happened to me twice already, but I'm going to go for it anyway. |
Zaknussem
Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2011.01.16 11:47:00 -
[42]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Zaknussem
One question though: What about RSS probes? Do you plan to add them later?
There is no reason to add RSS probes or sisters probes.
The faction core scanner versions would suffer the same results as regular Core scanner probes (described in the op) and the sisters deep space probes do not give an increase in strength.
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I must have been half-asleep when I read this through and commented. |
DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente Best Path Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 01:19:00 -
[43]
Nice work!
Or, you can simplify this step by using something common as a reference for signature strength... like a regular C1~C3 wormhole. Then, you can analyze the signature strength of other unknwon sites by refering to wormholes. (Stronger / similar to / smaller than wormholes.) If you do it enough you can remember the site's strength proportional to reference sizes. In your memory (or in your worksheet), it would look like this;
Site A (2AU - easily 100%) Site B1, B2 (2AU - 100%, but slightly harder) ------------------------------ [C1 ~ C3 Wormhole] / Site C, Site D... (1AU) ------------------------------ Site E1, E2 (0.5 AU - easily) Site [C5 Wormhole], F (0.5 AU - slightly harder) Site G (0.25 AU - easily) ....
When your scan strength increases, the required scan radius increases, which means that you can scan down the site more easily. The relative size relationship does not change; this is how you identify the site. Sketch's calculations can be used for comparing the relative signature strength of these sites.
I have memorized this relationship for every single combat site in all lowsec regions. I'm sure there is a site that has deep space scanner probe measurements for every single site in eve, so that can be useful for reconstructing the relative strengths of sites (measured from 1024 AU away, making the data pretty reliable).
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Dorn Val
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Posted - 2011.01.19 09:10:00 -
[44]
I already do something similar with core probes, but not on a single scan. Pretty easy to eliminate signals based on scan strength at a given scan range.
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Second4ry
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Posted - 2011.02.05 01:09:00 -
[45]
In your spreadsheet you use a normalizing factor to scale a result between the result you get using your ship and equipment and the result anyone else would get using different equipment.
The base used by this normalizing factor is 5 which is the base scan strength of a DSP, but isn't that the scan strength of a DSP when using its shortest range setting, I thought it had a lower scan strength when used at longer ranges?
I _think_ it doesn't make any difference to the validity of the calculations (although maths isn't my strong point). But if it's true that the sensor strength of the DSP at max range is lower than at shorter ranges then isn't using 5 in the normalizing factor just an arbitrary value which detracts from the intelligibility of the spreadsheet, and wouldn't usng a base of 1 be more correct?
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Spineker
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.05 09:31:00 -
[46]
I got rich off of exploration when it first released. Billions, everything now is pithy
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Blood Fart
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Posted - 2011.02.05 16:30:00 -
[47]
I've been exploring to make my money for a little over a year now. Here's what I've found just by paying attention. No spreadsheets needed.
#1: Loot drops are random. Site type spawns are NOT.....at least not completely. It's not that complicated to force certain types of sites but cannot be done in high-sec because (I think) they get gang humped as soon as the signature pops up. I have no experiance in null sites but low-sec ones spawn a certain way......have fun I'm not giving out all my secrets.
#2: High-sec exploration is boring. You'll make more isk shadowing the T3s in a fast cruiser and stealing their faction rat drop. Just skip the escalation sites unless they are untouched and you don't have to swap out to a better combat ship (there's a good chance by the time you get in a different ship and get back to the bookmark someone else will be on it....get ready to shoot the escalation trigger faster or move on). Skip mag sites....just skip them they're a waste of time. Radar is where you can make more dough in high-sec versus just doing lvl4s but damn does it take alot of grinding to get the right ones. Grav isn't my thing but the miners in the system's belts seemed to like them.
#3: A few quiet low-sec backwater systems can make you rich in a short amount of time if you know how to take the right risks at the right time. I've only found a couple combat sites that a normal PvE setup battlecruiser can't handle. The best part is a good site will stay there for days because roaming PvPers aren't interested in them (unless you're in it) and carebears are too afraid to go there. Mag is worth doing there and radars drop 3-4x what high-sec ones do. Once you find a good system the only real dangers you have are the players that live there and consider those sites theirs....unless you don't know anything about PvP/local/d-scan/etc but then you're probably playing the wrong game anyway.
#4: Yeah, after a while you'll notice that "x" plex always comes up at "x" strength depending on your skills/equipment. In high-sec a better thing to know is what wrecks will be on scan if someone else is already in the last room so you don't waste your time burning to a gate 60k out to see the tengu pop the loot ship/object and warp out.....unless you take my fast cruiser to steal advice then knowing whats in there will let you know how far along they are. In low-sec knowing what kind of wrecks the plexs generate will let you know if the +5 sec status guy in a myrmidon is in your outpost. Then you get to loot his wreck AND the possible rat droppings.
In summary, exploration is a great way to make isk if you grow a pair. The sites you find are nowhere near as important as WHERE you find them. EVE has no mods or skills to make you a successfull explorer...just a grinder with a T3 and a spreadsheet.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2011.02.05 18:21:00 -
[48]
Old news is old.
And not entirely accurate in some minutiae, but w/e. Signature removed. |
Darth McDarth
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Posted - 2011.02.06 02:25:00 -
[49]
Tagged
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Sala Teng
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Posted - 2011.02.07 07:57:00 -
[50]
Dear OP, thanks a load for your unraveling of mysteries.
Just one question for you (and other informed people): Is it feasible to do this in one ship, say Tengu, as proposed somewhere in this thread? Or shall we use some sort of 2ship-combo (Buzzard as scanner, Tengu as muscle)?
Thx, ST |
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Dorn Val
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Posted - 2011.02.07 08:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sala Teng ...Is it feasible to do this in one ship, say Tengu, as proposed somewhere in this thread? Or shall we use some sort of 2ship-combo (Buzzard as scanner, Tengu as muscle)?
If you have to re-ship then odds are someone will either be in the site when you get back, or it will be gone because someone already ran it. IMHO if you want to get into exploration you're better off in a Recon (one that can cloak) or a Tech III cruiser (the Tech III being better).
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.07 12:06:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sala Teng Dear OP, thanks a load for your unraveling of mysteries.
Just one question for you (and other informed people): Is it feasible to do this in one ship, say Tengu, as proposed somewhere in this thread? Or shall we use some sort of 2ship-combo (Buzzard as scanner, Tengu as muscle)?
Thx, ST
If you have an alt, 2 ship is fine. But the ideal ship is without a doubt the tengu. With the emergent locus subsystem you can probe with a DSP. Additionally, I keep a covert cloak + covert subsystem + dissolution sequencer in my cargo (ECCM mods already fitted). This is for those final escalations in low sec. Just swap back to the accelerated ejection sub when you get in low sec (use the "most unlikely" station to be being used, i.e. State Bank or something like that). If only one station be careful and even if there's no station, the covert fit tengu can still manage the final escalations for Gurista Watch/Vigil, it just may take a while (especially Vigil).
Actually I stopped running Vigils altogether. That final escalation isn't worth the time.
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SFM Hobb3s
ASCENSI0N Empire Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.02.07 17:43:00 -
[53]
Tengu is great for hisec exploration, but if I'm on a gurista terrorist plot that escalates to the end in lowsec, I'll usually take a pvp-fit rapier.
The advantage there is, in 3 volleys you can complete the site (1 shot to the f10 tower, sometimes two for the dg ship), and your done. And if you're fast and smart enough how you do it, the scramming rats won't get you, and neither will the pirates who are probing you down. You'll only be uncloaked for just a few seconds between volleys.
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lag kills
Gallente Isk Relocation Services
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Posted - 2011.02.07 18:34:00 -
[54]
i've been in caldariland for a week or so and made some very nice money. imo the loki is just as good, if not better than the tengu because it's generally faster at killing the frigs and cruisers and you never need much range. when i warp in on the first room of the gurista scout outpost, i set approach for the next gate and by the time i reach it, everything in the room is blown up, then i just tank everything in the next room while blowing up the telescope. |
XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.08 11:51:00 -
[55]
Originally by: lag kills i've been in caldariland for a week or so and made some very nice money. imo the loki is just as good, if not better than the tengu because it's generally faster at killing the frigs and cruisers and you never need much range. when i warp in on the first room of the gurista scout outpost, i set approach for the next gate and by the time i reach it, everything in the room is blown up, then i just tank everything in the next room while blowing up the telescope.
Tengu with AML does the same.
As for using a pvp rapier...I don't see the problem with that. My only point is that I roam 3 regions over the course of the week. It is highly unlikely that I would have a ship like that ready to go in the near vicinity. Being able to use the tengu for the final stage is imperative to being able to "keep on moving" and getting as many sites as possible.
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2011.02.08 15:32:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Salliene The general EVE populace has proven time and again to be highly averse to anything other than a "push button, receive reward" style of game play.
I have pushed the buttons many times, where is my reward? Are you telling me that F1-F4 were the wrong buttons?
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Cyniac
Gallente Twilight Star Rangers
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Posted - 2011.02.08 17:13:00 -
[57]
Originally by: KWyz
But they DO respawn, and quickly enough so that us carebears who don't have the skills/mood for missioning will be able to support themselves via exploration. Heck, i've been doing it since my second month in the game. Good luck out there!
Per constellation actually.
While the writeup is nice, there is nothing new in this (though the leg work is very good - especially if it accurately takes into account the different skills and gear, have to check.)
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Myguba
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Posted - 2011.02.08 17:35:00 -
[58]
Thank you for these elaborate infos i will make use of these dailies.
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Lithargos
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:58:00 -
[59]
Erm I really want to believe in this system but having tried it around a bit, some stuff stick ome stuff don't.
One system, 1 deep space probe:
three signatures all at 0.22%.... and they turn out to be: one wormhole,one grav, one complex.
How's this?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.12 14:11:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lithargos Erm I really want to believe in this system but having tried it around a bit, some stuff stick ome stuff don't.
One system, 1 deep space probe:
three signatures all at 0.22%.... and they turn out to be: one wormhole,one grav, one complex.
How's this?
Read through how the process works again.
Each of those sites you found at that percent will only ever show at that percent (that specific wh, that specific grav, and that specific complex).
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.02.12 23:47:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Lithargos One system, 1 deep space probe:
three signatures all at 0.22%.... and they turn out to be: one wormhole,one grav, one complex.
Watches, DED 4/10, Crumbling Angel Crystal Quarry, Chemical Yard all share the same signal strength. There will likely be some wormholes that fit in that slot - I just haven't found them yet.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Dagobert D
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Posted - 2011.02.19 20:42:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Dagobert D on 19/02/2011 20:42:30 I did some tests this evening and Im a bit confused:
Found 2 Wh's on 0.2 and on 0.4 strenght with a 256 AU scan. Is that possible?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.19 20:51:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Dagobert D Edited by: Dagobert D on 19/02/2011 20:42:30 I did some tests this evening and Im a bit confused:
Found 2 Wh's on 0.2 and on 0.4 strenght with a 256 AU scan. Is that possible?
Yes. Different wormholes can have different strengths.
For instance, M555 shows the same as Vigils for me and X702 shows the same was Watches for me.
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Anne Alingus
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Posted - 2011.02.19 21:09:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Cyniac
Originally by: KWyz
But they DO respawn, and quickly enough so that us carebears who don't have the skills/mood for missioning will be able to support themselves via exploration. Heck, i've been doing it since my second month in the game. Good luck out there!
Per constellation actually.
While the writeup is nice, there is nothing new in this (though the leg work is very good - especially if it accurately takes into account the different skills and gear, have to check.)
It doesn't work this way. This myth that sites respawn in the same constellation or region just because they are completed has been repeated over and over so many times people just assume it must be true. The mechanic is more complicated than that, has an element of RNG, and works differently for DED rated sites vs. the other combat sigs (like Gurista Fortress or Base for example).
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JonnyRandom
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Posted - 2011.02.20 17:10:00 -
[65]
You fly a Tengu for this you say? What's your fit?
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Droidster
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Posted - 2011.02.20 21:17:00 -
[66]
The "download" here is worthless. It points to a pay-to-download site. If you try their "Free" option, it gives a bogus message like "Sorry, all free download slots are taken. CLICK HERE TO UPGRADE TO PREMIUM."
Don't get fooled by this scam. _____________________________________________ I am not an alt |
XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:09:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Droidster The "download" here is worthless. It points to a pay-to-download site. If you try their "Free" option, it gives a bogus message like "Sorry, all free download slots are taken. CLICK HERE TO UPGRADE TO PREMIUM."
Don't get fooled by this scam.
Please ignore this idiot. I have no affiliation to the site I have linked for download and this is not a scam. I just tried to download the link for free on my work computer and it worked fine.
I am trying to upload to eve files but it doesn't seem to want to let me
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GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:25:00 -
[68]
Edited by: GyokZoli on 21/02/2011 12:24:57
Originally by: XXSketchxx Please ignore this idiot. I have no affiliation to the site I have linked for download and this is not a scam. I just tried to download the link for free on my work computer and it worked fine.
I am trying to upload to eve files but it doesn't seem to want to let me
You might want to use Mediafire as your file sharing service. I found this the best free one which I could find.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:28:00 -
[69]
Originally by: JonnyRandom You fly a Tengu for this you say? What's your fit?
[High Sec] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
ECCM - Gravimetric II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shadow Serpentis 10MN Afterburner Ballistic Deflection Field II Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Heavy Missile Launcher II,Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II,Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II,Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II,Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II,Scourge Heavy Missile Salvager II Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher,Deep Space Scanner Probe I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
This is pretty efficient for high sec. You can swap two of the midslots for analyzer/codebreaker if you're into that. Can also swap a salvager for another launcher if you don't care to salvage.
For probing in low sec I'll switch to the covert ops offensive subsystem. If I find a site and the system seems safe, I'll swap to the accelerated ejection and run the site faster. Escalations I'll keep the cloak on.
Usually I won't go unprobable until the last part of the escalation (parts leading up usually only take a few seconds). Important to remember that if you run sites in low sec, the last part (at least for annex and minor annex) will be in null sec, so fit accordingly.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:06:00 -
[70]
Op updated with latest version.
Changes include some aesthetic work, a few combat sites added and a wormhole page added.
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Floydd Heywood
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:56:00 -
[71]
Do you know the formula to translate sig sizes to expected signal strengths and vice versa?
I started using DSPs and I began to collect data about all the different signatures (only w-space, I don't do sites in empire). But I'm still not sure why I get the results I get and why distance matters less with decreasing scan strength.
Example: Using DSPs with effective strength of 12.705. Scanning a M267 wormhole with one probe at 256 AU I get a signal strength of 0.11%.
From other sources I know that a M267 has a sig size of 2.2.
For want of a formula I just used try and error to come to the result I was getting. Turns out that 2.2*12.705/256 = 0.1092, rounded 0.11.
So it could be as easy as: sig size * probe strength / probe range.
But it doesn't work like this for other probes and besides, the distance and its relation to scan strength has to come in somewhere.
I read some old threads including the one you linked to. But at least some of the information in them is outdated or was never correct, beginning with the "fact" that all wormholes are size 10. Anyway, for a single probe I found this formula:
sig-str% = Size * probe-str * distance-modifier / 2
I'm not sure what the distance-modifier is supposed to be, but for the formula to be in line with my result in above example, the modifier needs to be 1/128. The base scan strength of a DSP is 2 AU, and 2/256 is 1/128, so I conclude that the modifier is base scan range / selected range.
But still the distance from the probe to the signature is not taken into account. A core probe has base scan range 0.25 AU so the distance modifier would be 0.25/32 which is the same as 2/256.
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Foxgguy2001
Gallente Second Hand Lions
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Posted - 2011.04.14 14:43:00 -
[72]
Hello all,
quick question...I've been giving this a good read over, and attempting to put it into practice, however I'm noticing that the complex's etc. have wormholes that often have the same scan strength, and that these wormholes are often more prominently found that the complex's, am I missing something on how to differentiate between them (wormholes/complex's)? |
Emperor Salazar
Caldari Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.14 17:21:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Foxgguy2001 Hello all,
quick question...I've been giving this a good read over, and attempting to put it into practice, however I'm noticing that the complex's etc. have wormholes that often have the same scan strength, and that these wormholes are often more prominently found that the complex's, am I missing something on how to differentiate between them (wormholes/complex's)?
Nature of the beast I'm afraid. The simple truth is that there are more wormholes than complexes, thus resulting in finding a lot more wormholes than complexes.
Ignoring the signature that is K162 will do you a ton of good however. Granted this means you will never find DED 3/10 or [Faction] Lookout, but they really don't drop that great of loot anyway (leave them to the noobs I say)
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.04.14 19:51:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Emperor Salazar Granted this means you will never find DED 3/10 or [Faction] Lookout, but they really don't drop that great of loot anyway (leave them to the noobs I say)
In guristas space the lookout escalation does have a chance of dropping small a-type shield boosters, which are worth quite a bit of isk. I got one yesterday that sold for close to 700M isk, and i another drop from a dread while doing the escalation. If you have a frig/destroyer close by i would say they are worth pinpointing, if not i skip them.
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Esbelta
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Posted - 2011.05.08 20:33:00 -
[75]
So if I want to do this exploring thing right I need to train up Astro V? ;)
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Brannor McThife
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.05.09 03:12:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Esbelta So if I want to do this exploring thing right I need to train up Astro V? ;)
If you expect to have any real level of success, and not be beaten to sites by those of us that have spent the time getting it, then yes.
If you want to follow the haphazard path of throwing core probes around the system trying to guess if a site is worth probing down... don't train it to 5.
I'm not the ultimate explorer by any means, but being able to enter a system, align to outbound gate, drop a DSP and know in under 6 seconds if there's anything worth probing for, saves a LOT of time. And in the highly competitive universe of high-sec exploration, every second counts.
The Tengu's one Engineering subsystem, that allows for faster warping and less fuel use, is really good for exploration too.
-G
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.05.09 07:24:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Brannor McThife
Originally by: Esbelta So if I want to do this exploring thing right I need to train up Astro V? ;)
If you expect to have any real level of success, and not be beaten to sites by those of us that have spent the time getting it, then yes.
If you want to follow the haphazard path of throwing core probes around the system trying to guess if a site is worth probing down... don't train it to 5.
I'm not the ultimate explorer by any means, but being able to enter a system, align to outbound gate, drop a DSP and know in under 6 seconds if there's anything worth probing for, saves a LOT of time. And in the highly competitive universe of high-sec exploration, every second counts.
The Tengu's one Engineering subsystem, that allows for faster warping and less fuel use, is really good for exploration too.
-G
Hullo there,
Perhaps you can help me out a little bit. I've read this thread and downloaded the Excel spreadsheet but, admittedly, I am still confused about the whole deal with DSP. Am I correct in thinking that by throwing out a probe it will return every signature in the system (given it's very large radius), and from there I can just see from the signal reference which particular site it is?
Thanks -------------- Fix the game's last broken weapon system - support if you care!
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Wasp 223
Caldari Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.05.09 10:59:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Bumblefck
<snip>
Hullo there,
Perhaps you can help me out a little bit. I've read this thread and downloaded the Excel spreadsheet but, admittedly, I am still confused about the whole deal with DSP. Am I correct in thinking that by throwing out a probe it will return every signature in the system (given it's very large radius), and from there I can just see from the signal reference which particular site it is?
Thanks
Yes. The other thing to take note of is that a DSP has a very low signal strength, which is the premise of this approach. With a normal probe, the strength falls off dramatically with distance, which means that the strength of your signal will depend on how far the signature is from the probe.
However, because the DSP strength is low, it doesn't really change no matter how close/far it is from the signal. As a result, you just record the strength of your initial DSP hits. You then scan the signatures down and note what it was against the intial signal. So, next time you see a signature with a first scan of a DSP you can look up what actual sites correlate to that signal strength.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.05.09 15:54:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Wasp 223
Originally by: Bumblefck
<snip>
Hullo there,
Perhaps you can help me out a little bit. I've read this thread and downloaded the Excel spreadsheet but, admittedly, I am still confused about the whole deal with DSP. Am I correct in thinking that by throwing out a probe it will return every signature in the system (given it's very large radius), and from there I can just see from the signal reference which particular site it is?
Thanks
Yes. The other thing to take note of is that a DSP has a very low signal strength, which is the premise of this approach. With a normal probe, the strength falls off dramatically with distance, which means that the strength of your signal will depend on how far the signature is from the probe.
However, because the DSP strength is low, it doesn't really change no matter how close/far it is from the signal. As a result, you just record the strength of your initial DSP hits. You then scan the signatures down and note what it was against the intial signal. So, next time you see a signature with a first scan of a DSP you can look up what actual sites correlate to that signal strength.
Very concise and helpful answer, thanks! -------------- Fix the game's last broken weapon system - support if you care!
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Esbelta
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Posted - 2011.05.09 16:32:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Brannor McThife
Originally by: Esbelta So if I want to do this exploring thing right I need to train up Astro V? ;)
If you expect to have any real level of success, and not be beaten to sites by those of us that have spent the time getting it, then yes.
If you want to follow the haphazard path of throwing core probes around the system trying to guess if a site is worth probing down... don't train it to 5.
I'm not the ultimate explorer by any means, but being able to enter a system, align to outbound gate, drop a DSP and know in under 6 seconds if there's anything worth probing for, saves a LOT of time. And in the highly competitive universe of high-sec exploration, every second counts.
The Tengu's one Engineering subsystem, that allows for faster warping and less fuel use, is really good for exploration too.
-G
Although I was being facetious (as the answer to my comment is patently obvious), I got a good reminder yesterday as I was scanning down a radar site when the sig suddenly vanished. Unfortnately I have more pressing things to train than Astro V at the moment.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.05.09 19:37:00 -
[81]
Additionally, am I correct in understanding that you essentially catalogue the lists of sites through the signal strengths that they return and not the signal IDs?
Thanks! -------------- Fix the game's last broken weapon system - support if you care!
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Emperor Salazar
Caldari Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.05.09 20:42:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Bumblefck Additionally, am I correct in understanding that you essentially catalogue the lists of sites through the signal strengths that they return and not the signal IDs?
Thanks!
This is correct, as signal IDs reset every downtime.
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Wasp 223
Caldari Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.05.10 04:13:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Bumblefck
<snip>
Very concise and helpful answer, thanks!
No problems. That's Rote Kapelle. Helping carebears everywhere.. ..so they look shinier on our killboard. :-)
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.05.10 08:04:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Wasp 223
Originally by: Bumblefck
<snip>
Very concise and helpful answer, thanks!
No problems. That's Rote Kapelle. Helping carebears everywhere.. ..so they look shinier on our killboard. :-)
I am no carebear but I like providing others with shinies :) -------------- Fix the game's last broken weapon system - support if you care!
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ggnoreTT
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:11:00 -
[85]
Hi guys,
I was actually looking forward to this DPS scanning, while writing down SIG strength. I was very disappointed, because during my first day, i got many notes and it turns out that many sigs has same strength. Some wormholes has mag sites strength, some Radars are same as ladar and some plexes = WH site strength. ANyway it's a big mess. I tried moving probes further from the system, vertically, tried to find that golden hit so i could determine sites by signal strength. I was unlucky. Moving probe only changed sig %, but ratio stayed the same. Can anyone give me advise or is it reality that you have to focus like on particular site. like pelx 6/10.
P.S. I do exploration in low
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