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Sky Orcagna
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 04:33:00 -
[1]
First off, this is a question, not a rant or a stealth whine about mean CEOs or anything like that. But something Professor Tarantula posted in another thread got me thinking:
Originally by: Professor Tarantula It's comical to me how all the corps and alliances I've been in never give anything back to members. Acting like no isk can be spared as it piles up. Everyone expected to make their own money, yet fighting for the cause of their CEO. That's not how corporations work.
Before everyone jumps in to see who can be the first to post a snarky reply, let's think about this for a second. It seems more than fair to ask whether EVE's current corporation system is as good as it can be and whether it encourages a single style of corp management to the detriment of all others.
While it's true that EVE is a cold, harsh place and ruthless corps that treat members like cattle are to be expected, shouldn't there be at least some corps that are organized more like a legitimate business and less like a self-perpetuating slave trade? After all, in the real world people join corporations to be PAID for their services, not the other way around. while it's true that members of 0.0 corps get acess to 0.0 space where it's possible to make a healthy profit, is this the only perk the corp is expected to provide in return for members paying taxes, scouting, building, and fighting for the organization? That seems like a poor trade at face value.
Where does the CSM stand on making improvements to the corp system? Isn't it time to revamp the corp system with a well designed and fully integrated dividend/stock system that will actually be used? If corp and alliances had integrated tools to easily allow profits to be shared, it might go a long way toward helping foster different types of gameplay. At a minimum it would give leadership more options.
Let's be clear, dictatorships and ruthless tyrannies are a big part of the EVE universe and that's as it should be. But even ruthless dictators ought to have more options at their disposal than EVE currently offers.
Would like to hear what the CSM and some current CEOs have to say on this. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.01.14 04:40:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Akita T on 14/01/2011 04:41:47
You can't just drop a "most corps never give anything back to members" and expect to not be called on it.
Where exactly in this grand scheme of things would all the "PvP ship replacement schemes" fit into ? Quite a few 0.0 corps DO have them. Or what about corp-sponsored capital ships ? Sometimes even including the skills and full fit, not just the ship. How about the fact that "security" and "convenience" are a quite tangible benefits too ? Especially for 0.0 dwellers in alliance-controlled space, doubly so for outpost systems.
P.S. But yeah, an actual "employment" system, with different paygrades for members, similar to the share dividend system, that would be nice. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Vlad Talltos
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Posted - 2011.01.14 04:44:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Vlad Talltos on 14/01/2011 04:44:35 I remember making good isk for hauling ore in high sec for my corp as a early player in EVE. That was way more then I thought I was going to get paid. So as Akita said above I am not real sure that 'most' corps do not try to take care of their members.
That begin said having more options for corp/alliance functionality could be nice.
Also, I felt like taking that quote on by Prof T. but I did not feel like it was right for the thread.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.14 04:49:00 -
[4]
To be able to pay your corp members for their services the corp/alliance would need some kind of income..
In sov space this would be taxes for docking/labs/refining/ratting. If you tax your own members there it's pointless. You have to tax the Renters.
Also, you can't tax the ratting income of renters afaik. support Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
KaarBaak
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.14 04:54:00 -
[5]
I was in a T2 manuf Corp for a while and received a bi-weekly isk payment as long as i met production goals and a monthly dividend isk payment depending on Corp profits.
Corps work as well or as poorly as the CEO and the corps members allow. No change to mechanics needed.
KB
Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
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Sky Orcagna
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 04:58:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sky Orcagna on 14/01/2011 04:59:05
Originally by: Tres Farmer To be able to pay your corp members for their services the corp/alliance would need some kind of income..
What about moon income? Everyone here who believes alliance leaders invest all of that back into the organization instead of making themselves filthy rich please raise your hand. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for CEOs being handsomely rewarded for their cunning and ruthlessness, just don't try to make the argument they aren't shamelessly profiting off the backs of ordinary members.
Originally by: Tres Farmer In sov space this would be taxes for docking/labs/refining/ratting.
I've never understood why alliances don't have the ability to set global taxes on market activity within stations under their control. If that were possible it would go a long way toward encouraging alliances to rethink NBSI policies in favor of something that slightly resembles the way a real empire might operate.
In short, you're right. Organizations ought to have more built-in options to create profit and they also ought to have more options to share a bit of those profits with members. Even some really basic options here could open up some cool possibilities.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.01.14 05:03:00 -
[7]
That's how null corps are. You need to be their ***** for the honor of being in their space. Want corps that actually treat members well? Highsec is for you...
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Ashlar Maidstone
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Posted - 2011.01.14 05:27:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ashlar Maidstone on 14/01/2011 05:28:14 Recently I joined another corp. within the same alliance. Now the experience I have is one that they DO take care of their members and this was proven to me recently. I had stated in alliance chat the need for a ship fitted to run the SoE mission arc to which I am currently working on.
Imagine my surprise when BOTH my corp CEO AND an alliance leader presented me with a fully fitted Omen and a Prophecy hull for the next phases of Soe Epic Mission arcs. PLUS a Retriever fully loaded and ready to mine with!!!
S0, there are some really good corp./alliances out there, just gotta be lucky!!
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Caghji
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Posted - 2011.01.14 05:34:00 -
[9]
I have never understood (or agreed) with it either
That is why I run my Low sec moon mining corp by paying corp members a weekly salary for what they do to help the operation run
the corp pays members for their PI and fuel and then we pay out a share of the profits with a certain % going to the corp wallet
Prices are set for 1 month and readjusted according to Jita prices at the start of every month
Been running for nearly a year now and surprise surprise still have the same crew of 'loyal' members
we have also slowly expanded operations over the 12 months.
Tax is 0% as well - all we ask for from the members is reliability of keeping the POSs turning over and a heads up if they are not available for a period of time
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Quemist
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Posted - 2011.01.14 05:49:00 -
[10]
I used to feel the exact same way OP but some corps aren't like that you just have to find them, it's really hard. It might just be because my corps newer and they haven't burnt out but when I came on board they jumped my stuff up which is normal I know, but then we were in a 0.0 alliance that was not such a good fit, CEO without anyone really complaining got us into a new one which is much better, organizes everything, they recruit, set up forums, move all our stuff here and there and us what we need from empire, give us fits to try and pick them up from Jita for us, get us safe space. The point is we pretty much have everything we need to get filthy rich and live in 0.0 with like no effort that's worth tax imo.
But there are some corps that are just a complete scam. 10% tax faction warfare corps come to mind but also a lot of them where you're like... why am I in this again? I ****ing do everything by myself and all you do is *****. There are a ton of bad ones.
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Aiwha
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.01.14 05:50:00 -
[11]
Ship replacement, mineral buybacks, logistics, a well seeded 0.0 market hub... POS's Sov upgrades, cyno-beacons, Jumpbridges?
Gullible
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.01.14 05:51:00 -
[12]
Casual *********
Originally by: Jada Maroo Many legitimate news stories over the past few years would not have been brought to the forefront if not for Fox News.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.01.14 05:55:00 -
[13]
As far as corp finances and getting paid as an employee, that goes against game mechanics and even the philosophy of EVE. EVE encourages entrepreneurialism in industry and teamwork in PVP. With a corp, especially in highsec, it's incredibly easy to get a 1-man highsec POS but practically impossible to get a highsec POS in a legitimate corp without trying to fool the game mechanics. For other industry, why would I do the exact same work for my corp and get paid less than doing it solo and getting paid more? That mirrors RL perfectly, but players make the opposite decision.
The only time where a corp is absolutely necessary for the sake of industrial profit is in w-space. Even then arranging payouts has always been a huge turnoff for me.
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deathpain
Gallente Affinity for Spades
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Posted - 2011.01.14 06:23:00 -
[14]
I think it is totally dependant on your corporation. I am glad to say that my corporation is very good, and not only do I get given isk when im in need. We also have a plex in hanger at all times, incase someone has a irl emergency and cant pay for there account for a month. I have been given many ships (including a proteus) and I also received some very expensive mods worth 500 mil for my birthday. So yeah there are good corps out there, who will look after you. As for the corps that are there to screw you over, think how much more willing your capsuleers will be to lay down there clones and implants for you, if they knew they were valued to your corp.
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Vaari
Amarr Imperial Pharmacy
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Posted - 2011.01.14 06:46:00 -
[15]
I take every isk from my members I can get. I also hoard corp modules, ships and other property regulary to my own hangars, and dont even try to hide it. We have also plans to lower the taxes from 17% to 25%. This kind of behaviour is good for the corporation. It is our trademark and my members would not tolerate any other kind of behaviour.
If you want to pay for your members, when you can put them to pay you instead, maybe you should found a corporation.
This beginning. This birth of life. This dawn of greatness. I can not fail, for I have the Emperor to lead me and destiny to follow. undefined |
Nyrawin
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Posted - 2011.01.14 07:32:00 -
[16]
If you browse through recruitment forum you will see some corps and alliances offer ship replacement programs and I am sure there are other expenses too. Guess you just need to pick the right corporation for yourself.
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.14 07:35:00 -
[17]
There are no corporations in Eve, only mafia families.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:18:00 -
[18]
Edited by: TimMc on 14/01/2011 08:18:38 You do realise that in real life, corporations own everything you produce under their watch.
So basically in eve terms, you would want 100% taxation, all ore from mining to corp and market orders would have to be under the corporation rather than individual.
Then, with all that isk that the members cannot see, the corporation would pay out wages.
And then the corporation would have to get on peoples asses about activity more than they do, you know, since they are employees now.
Terrible idea. First off since its a game, second off because no one trusts their boss in eve that much.
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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Akita T
Where exactly in this grand scheme of things would all the "PvP ship replacement schemes" fit into ? Quite a few 0.0 corps DO have them.
and quite a few 0.0 corps only allow you to use that sceme for corp battles and improvements to corp killboards.
Go out and lose 10 vagabonds in a row, see how many replacement ships you get offered then. The Adelaide meet, be there! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: mkmin For other industry, why would I do the exact same work for my corp and get paid less than doing it solo and getting paid more? That mirrors RL perfectly, but players make the opposite decision.
Convenience.
If you have 1 guy doing the spreadsheet work and saying "The corp want A build and B invented as T2, we will pay X for A and Y for B, we will take care of the sell part" you will do less work than if you had to check the prices and profits yourself.
You exchange a part of the profits for the time you will not spend doing the spreadsheet work.
If the corp give out the materials too and only ask for the use of your research and building slots, providing blueprints, mineral and components you will do a minimal work in exchange for a tidy profit.
The only important part is the competence of the guy doing the spreadsheet work.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:59:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Akita T on 14/01/2011 09:07:00
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: Akita T Where exactly in this grand scheme of things would all the "PvP ship replacement schemes" fit into ? Quite a few 0.0 corps DO have them.
and quite a few 0.0 corps only allow you to use that sceme for corp battles and improvements to corp killboards. Go out and lose 10 vagabonds in a row, see how many replacement ships you get offered then.
Well, duuh. There is no single company, be it real-life or EVE player corp that will want to coddle an employee that costs the company more than it helps it rake in. By default, corp members NEED to contribute more to the corp (on average, be it directly through some activity or indirectly as defense assistance of corporate assets that generate ISK in some other way) than the corp returns to them directly (subvention of ships, skills or even direct payments), otherwise the corp can't possibly remain the same size, let alone grow. So, yeah, the ship replacement schemes should obviously only apply to corp-sanctioned activities (and if you perform poorly repeatedly you naturally get a smaller budget, or even no budget), and whatever you do in your spare time for fun is your own financial burden. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.01.14 09:12:00 -
[22]
I think to be honest you might have been in some ****ty corps, Mine only asks for me to participate in CTA's and the odd roams. all ships I use for these I can either use my own or corp supplied ships and to be honest if your losing 10 vaga's in a row you should think of a new career.
Corp's have to have some sort of dictorial direction otherwise they don't work,imagine having a meeting about everything the corp wants to do and letting the masses decide, it would be chaos and nothing would get done. You can always start your own corp/alliance along those lines that you would like but unfortunately due to the nature of the beast I don't think you would last very long.
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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.01.14 09:30:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 14/01/2011 09:32:06 Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 14/01/2011 09:30:47
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: Akita T Where exactly in this grand scheme of things would all the "PvP ship replacement schemes" fit into ? Quite a few 0.0 corps DO have them.
and quite a few 0.0 corps only allow you to use that sceme for corp battles and improvements to corp killboards. Go out and lose 10 vagabonds in a row, see how many replacement ships you get offered then.
Well, duuh. There is no single company, be it real-life or EVE player corp that will want to coddle an employee that costs the company more than it helps it rake in. By default, blah de blah words words words.
You just likened the ship replacement scheme to a paycheque. My pay does not get revoked if I spend it on stuff that is not sold by the shop I work at (use my ship at non-corp ops). It is not revoked if I spend some of it on alcohol, get smashed and spend the rest on a watch I don't need (fall asleep at the KB and get popped by a passing rifter). I may spend my paycheque any way that I wish. I may squander it in any way that I wish. It is, in fact, entirely mine to do with as I wish, and cannot be revoked under any circumstances without simultaneously firing me. No developed country allows a company to employ a person without paying them. It defies the definition of employment.
In contrast, I cannot spend my "free PvP ships" in any way that I wish. I cannot squander them. If I do so, they get revoked. As a result, the ship replacement schemes are not equivalent to a paycheque. They are, in fact, an exact analogue to being allowed to use company fleet vehicles for limited private use. Sure Akita, you can use the company van to move your new 50-inch tv, have it back by 6pm though, ok? Don't get a speeding ticket though Akita, or you'll never drive it again.
Now, thats a nice perk, but come on. If your employer told you he was going to pay you in company fleet vehicle perks, you'd quit on the spot. The Adelaide meet, be there! |
Rian O'Shea
Stratos Manufacturing and Logistics
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Posted - 2011.01.14 10:05:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Rian O''Shea on 14/01/2011 10:05:40 Yup, lots of people are in 0.0 acting as meatshields for the CEO's moongoo/production imperium, and they have to do it with their own time, effort and isk. On top of that they have to agree to get shouted at, being kept in the dark and essentially be used as cattle.
It's why I'm not in 0.0 anymore, first of all because I dislike blobs and large groups of people (as they WILL have idiots) but also because I refuse to be used and recruiters/CEO's don't like a recruit asking them awkward questions like "so, what can this corp do for ME as I invest time and effort into it".
There are ofcourse corps that aren't built on making massive isk but truly try to make it work for both the corp as it's members, I have yet to find one that's PVP focussed and doesn't have meme spouting elitist morons in it, then again I might not have searched really hard.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.14 11:49:00 -
[25]
if the corp sucks leave, that is about all I have to say about that.
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Shintai
Gallente Arx Io Orbital Factories Arx Io
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Posted - 2011.01.14 11:50:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Shintai on 14/01/2011 11:50:58 1/10 trollfail...
EDIT: And corps messing up members is what, 5% max? 95% good ones. Its like the classic, I know someone who knows one that got a friend who cheats with social services. Hence now all must cheat with social services! --------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Caghji
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Posted - 2011.01.14 11:58:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rian O'Shea Edited by: Rian O''Shea on 14/01/2011 10:05:40
There are ofcourse corps that aren't built on making massive isk but truly try to make it work for both the corp as it's members, I have yet to find one that's PVP focussed and doesn't have meme spouting elitist morons in it, then again I might not have searched really hard.
Then again thinking about it indi corps probably are set up to pay regular payments - PvP players from my experience tend to be adrenalin junkies - I guess that is why they actually pay (corp tax) to be part of a good PvP corp - to get their fix
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 12:34:00 -
[28]
What about the luxurious accommodations supplied to corp members when they dock? Complete with silk sheets, complementary escorts, and all sorts of substances to make you feel all sorts of ways?
Of course we don't have those yet because we cannot into ambulation. But soon!
In fact that could be a new mini-profession. Corps could hire people to just hang around and look nice so their members could raise their morale, and perhaps other things as well...
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.14 13:14:00 -
[29]
Huh, dunno about you guys, but I get back 100% of what I lose during corp/alliance operations. *shrugs*
There's a need for better corp management tools to allow for easier ship replacement programs and general corp operation, but if people are willing to enslave themselves, game design shouldn't discourage them. After all, they're doing everything voluntarily and while knowing the better options..
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wayz
The Greif Wave
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Posted - 2011.01.14 13:15:00 -
[30]
I dont think theres anything fundamentaly wrong with the corp system.... if corps want to pay players then the mechanics are there for it... if you want to dish out shares then the mechanics are there for it. Ultimately the sad fact is that when given the oppotunity to use and simply cash in on the hard work of others then most people take it up.... then wonder why they get corp theives ripping them off lol I was here when the universe it's self was made manifest!
I braved the dangers of null sec space when the was nowere to hide........ my point being..... RESPECT...MAH FUG....HIN...AUTHORITAHH!! |
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