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Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
596
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Posted - 2013.02.25 21:13:00 -
[61] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Fred Ono wrote:Jack Miton wrote: did you actually read the guide?
Yes I did... hence why my list was exactly what you typed minus the link pilot and asking if the second carrier was worth it. I was just asking for tips/advice on doing it solo, no need to be aggressive about it. Don't think he was being agressive as such - Jack has pretty much cut it back to the barebones so what he lists is basically the minimum to make it worthwhile and efficient - sure you may be able to come up with some variations on the theme with experience but thats another matter. Agreed, Jack wasn't being aggressive.
Fred -- You asked a question and implied a question with your "minimum" group you listed --
1. Is the extra (spike) carrier worth it?
- Yes, it is.
- Is it a necessity, no. You just lose out on those 8 extra bs's.
2. Is the Loki (booster) needed? I say it this way because you left it off your original list, Fred.
- Jack pointed out else where that you could get away without one -- but only if your Archon pilot has mad skills (e.g. at 5 across the board) , and only if you don't have too many sleepers on grid with you at the same time.
- Personally, if you have access to a booster, use it. It will help in so many ways.
Hope that helps.
+1 to Jack for a well written guide. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression - The only way to go! |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1433
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Posted - 2013.02.25 21:17:00 -
[62] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:2. Is the Loki (booster) needed? I say it this way because you left it off your original list, Fred. [list] Jack pointed out else where that you could get away without one -- but only if your Archon pilot has mad skills (e.g. at 5 across the board) , and only if you don't have too many sleepers on grid with you at the same time. if youre running with BSs for DPS you don't need the booster if your triage pilot is sh*t hot. if youre doing dread + loki + carrier you need the web range one at the very least since the loki is extremely likely to be webbed and won't be moving into web range anywhere near quickly enough. |
Harcus Mall
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.02.25 22:14:00 -
[63] - Quote
I would be interested to know what your pc set up is running 5 accounts at once. |
Angsty Teenager
Broski North Black Legion.
149
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Posted - 2013.02.25 23:04:00 -
[64] - Quote
Eh, I'm of the opinion that it's perfectly fine to do with 4 pilots.
1 Moros 1 Archon (doesn't need triage, I ran without triage for a while until my character trained it) 1 Loki who can also fly a noctis 1 Legion w/ all 3 legion links and the web distance skirmish link.
Makes you between 1.5-2bil per hour (at least when i was doing it, i dunno what nanoribbon prices are now, but it shouldn't change that much). It was taking me about 11 minutes per site, (from warp in to warp in on the next site, including salvage etc...).
Having two dreads is more efficient with respect to extracting isk from the wormhole, but I didn't have two dread characters at the time and my computer can't run 5 clients nicely. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1435
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Posted - 2013.02.25 23:25:00 -
[65] - Quote
Harcus Mall wrote:I would be interested to know what your pc set up is running 5 accounts at once. the only resource EVE uses heavily is RAM. i needed to up my RAM from 6gb to 12gb to do it stably but that's a very cheap upgrade. my PC is 3+ years old, my settings are maxed. runs fine. |
TunaKross
Bite Me inc Bitten.
23
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Posted - 2013.02.26 00:24:00 -
[66] - Quote
I want to thank you Jack for making this guide.
This guide probably pushed some people over the edge to start doing cap esco's. And if we can catch just one of those people when they are doing sites it is all worth it |
Fred Ono
Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion
1
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Posted - 2013.02.26 08:06:00 -
[67] - Quote
Thanks for the answers and clearing up a few things. You topic is pretty much the single most informative source on the subject.
Now a vid of someone soloing it would probably be asking too much huh? :)
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Serendipity Lost
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
36
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Posted - 2013.02.26 08:53:00 -
[68] - Quote
For the 'non archon' club - yeah imma livin in a pulsar.
We use 2 chimera and 2 dread and1 or 2 huggins.
1 chimera needs to be triage fitted. 2 huggins are better than one for webbing painting. rev or moros - it truly doesn't matter. Any combination of the 2 types and you always finish the site before the second siege cycle is up. I tend to warp them in at the same time, but some guys stagger them. They are shield tanked in the pulsar, so the damage they toss out might make you armor guys kind of jealous.
What I've gotten away with: 3 guys. 1 guy dual boxes the dreads, 1 guy runs the huggin, 1 guy dual boxes the carriers. DPS is always easy so dualing the dreads is kinda busy, but not a big deal. We keep the logi guy logi only and the webby/painty guy just to that. Funny thing is, with this minimum staffing the reps get easy so we more or less warp the whole fleet in at once and it's not that big of a deal. We lag the huggin just a bit to allow the carrier to triage and get set up before the huggin is on grid.
We use huggins because our newer guys trained in that direction vice the loki direction. We have a few loki pilots that do the loki thing instead of the huggin thing, so I'm not saying you NEED a huggin - that's just how it evolved for us.
Drugs - I like them, but other guys don't bother. They are nice if you only have one webber and lose value as the fleet size (webbing and painting) increases. It's pretty easy math.
Site completion time. We finish them before the second siege cycle is up. I really don't see a need to get it all done in one siege cycle so we rate our efficiency based on how long we have to wait to come out of siege.
Jack's setups are good and proven over time. (no offense intended here Jack) I just worry that guys take them as mandatory. There are a lot of ways to burn through anoms. For smaller corps dual archons or dual moros may not be an option. Don't feel you have to train for a moros - the rev has to wait for its siege cycle to end just like the moros does.
I look at the real efficiency on the dreads by number of siegs cycles (cuz you can't do half a cycle). If you get it done in one cycle I'd say there are too many guys living in your wh. If it takes you 3 you have some room to get better.
Don't get hung up on the fits, the numbers or the split hairs when getting your fleet together. I don't even use faction ammo for sleepers. I'm too lazy (yeah I know - it's that bad) to resupply so I just use the t1 stuff. (I keep a set of faction crystals in a special box labelled "I'm gonna kick your *** Cipreh" in the back of the cargo bay).
Fit what you can fit and work to get 'good enough for sleeper work' then move on funner things!! |
Joan Greywind
Hammer Holding Wrong Hole.
1
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Posted - 2013.03.07 06:21:00 -
[69] - Quote
Just a question about never running in a cataclysmic variable wh. Couldn't you just add 1 or 2 more local reppers instead of the cap rechargers to negate the 50% penalty? You will have 100% cap capacity and recharge bonus so you should be good on cap. And don't forget since you have 100% increase in rr you should be able to complete the site with using only 1 rr module which free up more cap.
Btw thanks for the great guide. |
Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
73
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Not a bad base to start with.
Got your basics there. A good place to build on.
Although I do have to say that since they changed the way missile rigs work, they now work with Citadel torps, Phoenix dreads can 2 shot escalation sleepers and they don't even need to be webbed down fully.
Granted Phoenix won't be as fast as Moros or Rev's, but it can be hilarious amounts of fun to watch two Phoenix one-shot Sleepers off the field.
Asplosions always makes Bob happy. |
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Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
73
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: We use huggins because our newer guys trained in that direction vice the loki direction. We have a few loki pilots that do the loki thing instead of the huggin thing, so I'm not saying you NEED a huggin - that's just how it evolved for us.
Quick question.
I'm guessing those are dual 1600 II plate Huginns?
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Angsty Teenager
Aliastra Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 00:02:00 -
[72] - Quote
He's using chimeras, so it's a shield setup.
Can't see pheonixes actually being good still though, they can't even apply half of their theoretical dps to a fully webbed and TP'd sleepless guardian unless I'm missing something. |
Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
73
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Posted - 2013.03.08 00:19:00 -
[73] - Quote
Angsty Teenager wrote:He's using chimeras, so it's a shield setup.
Can't see pheonixes actually being good still though, they can't even apply half of their theoretical dps to a fully webbed and TP'd sleepless guardian unless I'm missing something.
That's the problem I have with theoretical DPS.
We've run them in sites, singly and in pairs and Sleepers melt. Not as fast as Moros or Revs mind you, but they do blow **** up really good. If you're gonna PvE may as well have fun with it once in a while. Right?
Nag's are under-rated as well. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1475
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:28:00 -
[74] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: They are shield tanked in the pulsar, so the damage they toss out might make you armor guys kind of jealous. Considering I live in a C6 Magnetar and run 3 damage mods on the first dread and 4 on the second, I kinda doubt it ;)
ADHOC guy, I really hope you're trolling about the Phoenixes and Nags... |
Celeste Starwind
Global Dynamics Production Test Friends Please Ignore
3
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Posted - 2013.03.10 23:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
There is one thing bothering me. Are you saying to refit sieged dred? Is it even possible? And did anyone tried a rapier in place of loki? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
220
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 23:55:00 -
[76] - Quote
Celeste Starwind wrote:There is one thing bothering me. Are you saying to refit sieged dred? Is it even possible? And did anyone tried a rapier in place of loki?
Any ship can be refit including sieged/triaged if they are within refitting range of a carrier or orca - probably not a good idea to bring an orca in site tho :P
Rapiers can be used but they are quite thin on tank compared to a loki.
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Angsty Teenager
Aliastra Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 00:13:00 -
[77] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:For the 'non archon' club - yeah imma livin in a pulsar.
Should have asked this earlier, but w/e. I'm curious how you manage to keep your dreads alive and capped long enough with 28 sleepless guardians on you. Even in a pulsar, this seems pretty sketch. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
220
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 01:17:00 -
[78] - Quote
They won't be pulling all 4 waves at once - any more than about 2 escalation waves tops and they will be alphaing through the huginn.
What we used to do in a C5 pulsar is drop a rorqual in with the dreads (to keep the webbing ships alive) to get things started and bring the carriers in later. |
Angsty Teenager
Derpotle
149
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 04:42:00 -
[79] - Quote
He literally says they bring the whole fleet in at once (huginn after) though....
Quote:Funny thing is, with this minimum staffing the reps get easy so we more or less warp the whole fleet in at once and it's not that big of a deal.
I would tend to agree with what you said, that's why I ask. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
220
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:31:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ah missed that bit.
Individual sleeper groups don't tend to focus fire with other groups and if you drop the huginns in last and keep them the opposite side of the capitals to the sleepers they will hardly get shot at due to sleepers using preferred sig radius based targetting priorities. But if one does get webbed down and shot at by 2 or more groups theres a high chance it will pop. |
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Angsty Teenager
Gauze.
149
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Posted - 2013.03.11 20:02:00 -
[81] - Quote
I'm actually more interested in how the dreads survive. I mean, with a single repper they can only tank ~7000dps, which is two sleeper waves, and the dreads don't have cap to perma run the repper if you're max gank fitting them. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
220
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:21:00 -
[82] - Quote
Angsty Teenager wrote:I'm actually more interested in how the dreads survive. I mean, with a single repper they can only tank ~7000dps, which is two sleeper waves, and the dreads don't have cap to perma run the repper if you're max gank fitting them.
Aslong as you have good webbing/tp support and/or use warp to zero method a dread setup roughly like this (with approprite implants)
Quote:[Moros, Pulsar Moros] Damage Control II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Siege Module II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Does fine in a C5 pulsar. |
Angsty Teenager
Gauze.
149
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:24:00 -
[83] - Quote
Hmm, maybe I've been overestimating the amount of tracking actually required (I would have only allowed two slots for tank in the mids).
Still not entirely sold on that being able to survive even half dps and half neuts for 10 minutes. I guess I'll just take it at face value though. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
220
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:40:00 -
[84] - Quote
You would need 2 huginns to fully support that kind of fit, if you have 2-4 capitals in site its rare for any one of them to take full aggro from multiple waves indefinitely and aslong as your dreads are hitting well you will be killing guardians much quicker than they are killing you. Obviously tho that kind of setup doesn't leave much room for screw ups.
When we used to live in a pulsar we'd have a siege mindlinked booster and I'd have an alt boosting from a prot for the extra target painting bonus infowar links give. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
694
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 01:32:00 -
[85] - Quote
I have lost Huggins and Rapiers to single waves of cap escalations. It only happened twice, and it required a bunch of things to line up, but they do get alpha'd.
With the complete removal of passive shield compensations applying to offline invuls, I'd be VERY reluctant to fly a shield-fit huggin/rapier in a site. Especially since I've now done it with 2 Archons, 2 Revelations and a loki.
A 10 slot shield tank on a Rapier gets you only 50,000 (65k w/ links) eHP. It also leaves you with only one web and one paint. You get a similar tank on the Huggin. Meanwhile the Loki we were using was pushing 300k WITHOUT the Wolf-Rayet effect of our hole, and without implants. Add implants and a c5 WR effect and your EHP jumps up to 500k and you still have 5 mids for webs/paints. Did I mention half the sig radius?
Doing it with a shield fleet is possible... but its just so much easier with an armour fleet. You can warp the whole fleet in at once, tank it all like a boss and still blap the whole thing in 20 minutes. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
220
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 01:52:00 -
[86] - Quote
Was thinking earlier I'd be a bit concerned about the changes to the compensation skills if we were still in a pulsar. If your prepared to run 2x huginn (2x web, 1x TP on each) you can get a little over 100K EHP out of them in a C5 pulsar w/ siege links and fairly good resists. |
Lenier Chenal
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
22
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Posted - 2013.03.14 15:59:00 -
[87] - Quote
Great guide. |
Serendipity Lost
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
43
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Posted - 2013.03.17 07:09:00 -
[88] - Quote
Didn't realize you guys were discussing the pulsar stuffs (heavy work load is keeping me busy). It's pretty easy to figure out sleeper aggro and manage it. If you're running quad escallations and don't know how to get all the sleepers to focus on one ship when you need to I will recommend playing around a bit and see what they like and what they don't care about. I would bet there is one module they just love to hate out there. You just have to find it. On a side note, if you just sit there in a sieged dread and omg... stop shooting them... they lose interest soon enough and you can coast out and get reps. Managing the aggro is a better way to go though as it feels like 15min pass waiting for the first 3 locks after pushing the siege button.
As far as how the dreads are fit... If you look hard enough you can prolly figure out a moros fit that I've used. You don't need to go total dead space fit, but it's easy enough to afford after a few sites. Keep in mind you can refit any time you get nervous, but we only experience that occaisionally when we mis-manage the aggro.
We don't use rorqs, but as mentioned they are free capital reps as far as escallation waves are concerned, so if you are just starting out or just want to do some experiments - they are a nice support ship to have on the field. We lose the occaisional huggin, but it really only gets sketchy if we are light on gang boosts.
As far as implants - it's not that difficult to figure out which ones I keep in my head. I just run a general all around set of 3% hardwires. Nothing special. Lost |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
221
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Posted - 2013.03.17 14:47:00 -
[89] - Quote
Have to admit I'd forgotten that stopping shooting in a dread often results in the sleepers losing interest in you - as the times I've ran a dread I've been able to brawl right through the site. They are evil tho and the one time you really really need them to stop shooting you they will just keep shooting you regardless :S
Had a look at the moros fit but you were obviously refitting that during the fight for various different purposes so hard to get an idea of the original fit. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1500
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 23:26:00 -
[90] - Quote
you're over thinking this. a dread can easily tank the sleepers for long enough even if they shoot it for the entire time. if the dread does take full agro I do recommend refitting it for resists a bit but you can scrape by without doing so if you're on the ball, especially with slaves. |
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