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Serendipity Lost
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
43
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Posted - 2013.03.18 02:34:00 -
[91] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:you're over thinking this..
This for sure.
The shield buffer is more than enough if you run the sites per the game plan. If you're running low on shields you've done something wrong. As far as the moros fit - I wasn't refitting. I keep the armor repper fitted on the shield buffered moros. If I could fit an armor repper in cargo and throw another mag stab in the lows I would - I can't, so I have a shield moros w/ an armor repper fitted just in case I refit to armor. I got some crap for trying to dual tank a moros, and I guess maybe I am in a way, but it's more of a cargo space issue than a desire to shield/armor tank it.
As far as the loss - it's a long story w/ a lot of bad on my part. I'll just say my judgement isn't the best when I get home from a midnight shift. The guys that got us were playing heads up and I was feeding them caps in series. No excuses though, they were great and I'm sure I'm way up on their favorites list as well.
The first time I ran sites in HID and they did a quad escallation by warping everything in at once I was thinking it was crazy, but it's not. As far as that goes - c5 and even more in c6 the wh bonus plays big. Shield buffer caps in our wh don't really sweat sleeper aggro (shield AND cap bonus). Mag sites - you need to pay attention, but regular anoms are routine once you get the routine down (Yogi Berra??) I recommend you play around with your wh bonus and see what you can get away with. Play around with different modules and warp in 'routines' and see how the sleepers react to what you do. You can't train them to do what you want, but it's not that hard to figure out what they do under various conditions.
Try throwing just one faction BS into the escallationl. Sleepers love them! Put you carrier reps on the bhaal and go make a sandwitch! Try stuff until you get things where you want them. Keep messing around until you get what you want. Maybe try an abso with a gang link and a jammer. Let it sit idle then light up the gang link and start trying to jam the sleeps. It's a game - play around a bit.
Lost |
Jireel
I ain't got me ground legs yet
1
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:35:00 -
[92] - Quote
At least i know what I'll be doing 2 years from now - thanks for the post mate, i was wondering how you did those escalations, now i got a ton of info to work with |
ayoud Igunen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.04.06 15:03:00 -
[93] - Quote
hi mates, i would like to know if is it possible run sites wtih 1 carrier(triage t2) 1 revelation 1 webber and 1 bs (for kill cruisers and frigates)
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Hansy Babes
I Swear She Was 18 Rainbow Dash Friends
0
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Posted - 2013.04.17 13:18:00 -
[94] - Quote
Hi,
The method you mentioned included warping in only 1 dread right after the carrier giving you the 2 escalations and forcing you to wait for the intial dread to clear out some of the npcs on field before warping in the the rest of your dreads and spawning the 3rd escalation. We currently run our c5 using this method, but I was curious about warping in multiple dreads with the triage archon, say 5 dreads, and 2-3 webbing lokies, spawning 3 waves of sleepless guardians.
Obviously if you were able to do this you'd make much more money as there are more dreads in seige more of the time. How many dreads do you recon you would need to mitigate the dps quickly enough to warrent spawning 3 waves at once? As far as i can see the lokies have no problem tanking, and the archon is ok, it becomes tricky when a dread is focused with neuts + dps, but speaking from experiance it seems like it should be possible to do the 3 cap escalations at once given enough dreads. Any information on this would be a great help, alternatively we can go welp some dreads to trial and error :). |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
239
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Posted - 2013.04.17 13:51:00 -
[95] - Quote
Aslong as your carrier is well fit (and how easy it is depends a bit on system effects) then it comes down to luck of the draw how much any one dread gets primaried. In theory it should be rare that all 3 waves went for one dread and if they did it can probably stop shooting which usually results in them switching targets.
Keeping well fit lokis alive should be trivial, keeping them capped up might be a little harder but probably nothing that can't be managed. |
Hansy Babes
I Swear She Was 18 Rainbow Dash Friends
0
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Posted - 2013.04.17 20:19:00 -
[96] - Quote
Dunno seems to me that warp **** in and pray that 1 doesnt get primaried long enough leave a bit to much to chance. I'm sure theres a critical number of dreads where the sleepers pop fast enough so that even if 1 dread is primared is shouldnt matter, I was wondering if anyone had experiance with that? |
Angsty Teenager
Derpotle
149
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Posted - 2013.04.17 20:39:00 -
[97] - Quote
You can warp in 1 loki, 1 archon, and 2 moroses into a C5 site all at one time and not die. Just be prepared to potentially either have to triage your archon, or refit one of your dreads for more tank. Biggest issue isn't really the sleeper dps, but rather neuts, so just have cap boosters with you if **** goes really bad so you can desiege, refit to 5 heavy cap boosters and just perma boost and rep as you come out siege and eventually let the archon rep/cap you. You have to be on the ball with killing sleepers as you definitely are on a timeline in terms of how much cap your dreads have, but it is possible to finish the site in 5 minutes this way.
Source: I've done this.
Edit: I wouldn't do this in an oruze or quarantine area since the chance of your dreads getting neuted is significantly higher since the sleepers will be in range quickly. For the core garrisons and strongholds, if you burn your loki(s) out a little bit closer to the sleepless guardians at the start, in my experience the loki ends up keeping the neuts on it the whole time (which is good).
Edit 2: If it's not obvious, I also was using legion links. |
Hansy Babes
I Swear She Was 18 Rainbow Dash Friends
0
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Posted - 2013.04.17 21:10:00 -
[98] - Quote
Thanks, thats what i was looking for. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1642
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 04:22:00 -
[99] - Quote
Hansy Babes wrote:Thanks, thats what i was looking for. It really isnt. Warping in 3 caps and a Loki all at once is FAR riskier than just 2 caps and the loki. Yes, it is possible but it isnt worth doing.
If you follow my instructions, the dread being primaried is not an issue. In fact, it will almost always be primary for most of the site. |
Angsty Teenager
Derpotle
150
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 18:15:00 -
[100] - Quote
Riskier, sure, doesn't mean it's a death sentence though unless you're bad.
If he really cares about risk he can just go do it in a wolf-rayet or a magnetar. That should remove a lot of it. |
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Hansy Babes
I Swear She Was 18 Rainbow Dash Friends
3
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Posted - 2013.06.18 11:21:00 -
[101] - Quote
Old thread, But just wanted to say we've been spawning 3 cap escalations at once at all sites except the more heavilly neuting ones. We've been doing this with dreads that dont have tech 2 seige aren't pimp fit and don't have implants in the pods, the same goes for the archon (it is t2 triage but doesn't have implants etc.). This has been working without a problem, on top of this our wormhole is unbonused. In a wolf-rayet or a magnetar it seems as if 3 cap escalations at once would be extermely easy to do. Maybe we've "gotten lucky" for a month straight but it seems to be working fine, ontop of this you can apply your full dps from the beginning of the site making the painfull process of ratting be over that much quicker. The carrier does come under considerable pressure if it is neuted and primaried by all of the Guardians on field, but even if this happens the dps of the dreads is enough to bring down the Guardians fast enough that there is little risk of the archon actually dieing. Have to stress that this is just our experiance and maybe we've been lucky the whole time but taking into account that we are not running the sites in pimp fits and not in a bonused wh I really doubt that starting with 3 escalations at once isn't a reasonable approach for people with the isk, sp and the correct wh. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
490
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 11:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
How many dreads do you use? Obviously it will get a lot easier if you bring more than two. . |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
2013
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 12:25:00 -
[103] - Quote
Sure, lots of groups run 3 waves at once but there are a few issues with it. For one, i highly doubt youre only using 2 dreads. Secondly, it isnt any faster. Its certainly not something id recommend doing with only 1-2 people too ;) |
Angsty Teenager
Derpotle
167
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Posted - 2013.06.18 16:38:00 -
[104] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Sure, lots of groups run 3 waves at once but there are a few issues with it. For one, i highly doubt youre only using 2 dreads. Secondly, it isnt any faster. Its certainly not something id recommend doing with only 1-2 people too ;)
This isn't true. Like I said before, I run triple escalations with 2 moros, 1 archon, and 2 lokis and finish (at least core stronghold and garrisons, oruze and quarantine are somewhat iffy) sites in one siege cycle. It is close, but very doable, you just can't mess up and that comes with practice.
You don't even need to triage the archon. Even post odyssey with the resistance nerf. Thing is, the archon can't tank **** outside of triage, but when you have two moroses with T2 siege and 17000dps each, the sleepers will basically swap next target check, and stay on the moroses the whole time from that point onwards. You can get ~8000dps tank out of a moros fairly easily, and that is more than enough along with the nice natural armor buffer to keep the dread alive even in blap fit for 5 minutes, or at least enough time to kill enough of the sleepless guardians to make it a non-issue.
It's actually really easy and my only complaint is that I have to use two lokis because one cannot provide enough webs to adequately slow down the secondary and also TP the primary and secondary. The sleepers die so fast under two moroses that you basically don't enough enough time to swap webs and TP's to the secondary and have them start having any sort of effect before the sleeper will die. So you have to spread the same number of webs/TPs on your secondary as on the primary. The sleeper dies fast still, but not fast enough to do the site in 5 minutes.
But yea you're technically right on the first count about 2 dreads, since a rev/nag (or pheonix) is not suitable for this. (Hilariously, even 3 revs will still be worse than 2 moros, lololololol)
It gets mega boring after a while though, since it requires autist level attention if you want to 6 box it, but it isn't terribly interesting.
Edit: Maybe I'll even see if I can get some fraps of it, but my computer is like 5 years old and fraps takes a huge dump on it, especially when I'm running 6 eve clients. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
2014
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 21:56:00 -
[105] - Quote
ok, so youre running 3 waves in 5 min rather than the full 4 in 10. like i said, 4 would still take you 10. *shrug* |
Angsty Teenager
Derpotle
167
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 01:22:00 -
[106] - Quote
What is your point? It is still more efficient to run 3 waves in 5 minutes than 4 in 10. Plus if you're farming in a C5, you'll have to move holes if you want to keep farming since you'll run out of sites very quickly. You can move 2 dread and an archon + T3's and an orca, but you cannot move 2 carriers and 2 dreads.
If you are running all four waves, may as well just use enough dreads to do it in 5 minutes anyway, so v0v since you're not going to move wormholes. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
2015
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 01:43:00 -
[107] - Quote
We're basically discussing jasmin rice vs basmalti. The argument is completely irrelevant to this thread. There's about a million variations to the posted method you can do, none of them make this one not work and none of them are simpler. |
Hansy Babes
I Swear She Was 18 Rainbow Dash Friends
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 02:02:00 -
[108] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:How many dreads do you use? Obviously it will get a lot easier if you bring more than two.
The least we've done this with is 3 dreads, a moros and 2 nags. None of the dreads we used have T2 seige, all of them have only 4/4 for dread and xl blasters/auto cannons, none of the dreads use implants, none of the dreads are pimp fit by any stretch of the imagination and it's in a non-bonused worm hole. 2 pimp fit moros with proper skills, implants do far more dps than we put out with our 3 dreads, put those dreads in a magnetar and they probably get more than 3 times the dps we do. (naturally we use legion + loki links).
As Angsty has said if you can run 3 waves in five minutes it is more efficient than running 4 waves in 10. Point being it is viable as well as more efficient to run the sites by spawning 3 waves at once. You wouldn't get as much as if you were to run all the waves in all the sites but you do get more isk for the time you spending doing it and considering how dull I find pve grinding efficiency > total possible isk.
Dunno if you can run 4 waves in 1 cycle with 3 moros. Warping in the final escalation carrier half way through the site makes tanking no harder than 3 waves at anyone time. However there might be trouble with the speed at which lokies web or dreads lock. Would have to see it done or try it out before really suggesting that it works but regardless 3 waves 5 minutes is certainly viable and more efficient.
I suppose how you want to run it depends on if you want efficiency or total amount of isk made. |
Joan Greywind
I Moan ALOT We Moan ALOT
13
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 03:38:00 -
[109] - Quote
Hansy Babes wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:How many dreads do you use? Obviously it will get a lot easier if you bring more than two. The least we've done this with is 3 dreads, a moros and 2 nags. None of the dreads we used have T2 seige, all of them have only 4/4 for dread and xl blasters/auto cannons, none of the dreads use implants, none of the dreads are pimp fit by any stretch of the imagination and it's in a non-bonused worm hole. 2 pimp fit moros with proper skills, implants do far more dps than we put out with our 3 dreads, put those dreads in a magnetar and they probably get more than 3 times the dps we do. (naturally we use legion + loki links). As Angsty has said if you can run 3 waves in five minutes it is more efficient than running 4 waves in 10. Point being it is viable as well as more efficient to run the sites by spawning 3 waves at once. You wouldn't get as much as if you were to run all the waves in all the sites but you do get more isk for the time you spending doing it and considering how dull I find pve grinding efficiency > total possible isk. Dunno if you can run 4 waves in 1 cycle with 3 moros. Warping in the final escalation carrier half way through the site makes tanking no harder than 3 waves at anyone time. However there might be trouble with the speed at which lokies web or dreads lock. Would have to see it done or try it out before really suggesting that it works but regardless 3 waves 5 minutes is certainly viable and more efficient. I suppose how you want to run it depends on if you want efficiency or total amount of isk made.
In wormholes the biggest constraint by far is not time, but actually the number of sites spawned. So doing 3 waves instead of 4 is wasted easy iskies. It is still 200m in 5 minutes, which are going down the drain. It is boring I agree but at least for people that live in wormholes it is not efficient at all. And 1 more thing doing with 3 waves at once decreases the margin of error a lot, if you get a single dc or you get jumped by anyone the chances of you dying are much higher.
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Bloody Wench
570
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 01:35:00 -
[110] - Quote
Can you use the same pilot to bring in the other caps, or do they all have to be on grid at the same time to trigger? |
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
2037
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 05:53:00 -
[111] - Quote
you need both on field to trigger second wave. |
Angsty Teenager
Derpotle
167
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 22:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote: In wormholes the biggest constraint by far is not time, but actually the number of sites spawned. So doing 3 waves instead of 4 is wasted easy iskies. It is still 200m in 5 minutes, which are going down the drain. It is boring I agree but at least for people that live in wormholes it is not efficient at all. And 1 more thing doing with 3 waves at once decreases the margin of error a lot, if you get a single dc or you get jumped by anyone the chances of you dying are much higher.
I agree that if you are living in a wormhole semi-permanently, then not doing quad escalations is not using your wormhole to the fullest. If you aren't though, and are free to move wormholes (as you can do with a triple-escalation setup), then it is far more efficient to simply do only 3 escalations total, and just move wormholes when you run out of sites.
With regard to the margin of error, I really don't think it's any different than running 1,2, or 4 escalations. Since I only use one carrier, if my carrier dc's and stops repping my lokis, yea, I would probably die, unless the lokis aren't being shot (which is very possible). If anything else DC's, I'll be fine. Even if one of my dreads DC'd the moment I landed in the site, it is still very possible to finish a triple escalation with just one dread. It would be more dfificult and depending on what happened with regard to neuts and sleeper dps, i might have to drop the dread out of siege to cap it back up, but I think it's very unlikely it would die.
Also, if you run sites in 5 minutes, it's pretty hard to get caught tbh. Somebody would have to scan a WH into your system and have it appear the moment you landed in a site to stand a decent chance of killing you. Most people aren't chain rolling with a fleet on standby to kill people running sites, and they would have to form a fleet and then get in your wormhole. Likely it would take around ~5 minutes alone to do that, at which point you'll be done and have warped off.
If somebody is in your wormhole ahead of time though , it's a different story and you're going to die no matter what and the best thing you can do is be ready to try to fit warp core stabs to warp off, or just brawl them outrageous depending on their fleet size. Personally, I've never had any wormholes open while I was doing sites, probably because I run them in the late US/AU timezone which is pretty much the most dead time period in WH's, but there were many times where I found myself wishing that somebody would come in and try to gank me, just because I was so bored and wanted to fight. Setups used to run sleeper sites are pretty viable to fighting, especially since the enemy is limited in what they can bring through the wormhole. If they want to bring more than one capital, they'll have to commit to staying in the WH and finding a way back out, which many people won't want to do.
If they only have one capital, you stand a pretty decent chance of fighting them off with two dreads. It also depends on how many sleepers are in the site though, you are right about that aspect. If you just started a site and you get jumped, you're in bad shape since the sleepers will stay on you for the most part. |
emf
Knights Of the Black Sun
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 12:00:00 -
[113] - Quote
I guess I'll share what I did solo in 2009 when wormholes first came out. Warp alt in pod in at 100, warp dread in at 100 from pod to trigger first escalation. Warp dread out. Move pod to right in the middle of escalation battleships. Warp dread in at 0, enter siege and pop all the sleepers before they reach orbit range (you don't have long but you do full damage with no tracking issues). Repeat with 2nd and 3rd dreadnought. No need to screw around with support ships. Reinvest ludicrous profits on expensive sensor boosters and damage mods. The first wave it's difficult (but doable) to kill everything before they reach orbit, after that it's trivial since you have multiple dreads in siege mode. |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
202
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 21:32:00 -
[114] - Quote
emf wrote:I guess I'll share what I did solo in 2009 when wormholes first came out. Warp alt in pod in at 100, warp dread in at 100 from pod to trigger first escalation. Warp dread out. Move pod to right in the middle of escalation battleships. Warp dread in at 0, enter siege and pop all the sleepers before they reach orbit range (you don't have long but you do full damage with no tracking issues). Repeat with 2nd and 3rd dreadnought. No need to screw around with support ships. Reinvest ludicrous profits on expensive sensor boosters and damage mods. The first wave it's difficult (but doable) to kill everything before they reach orbit, after that it's trivial since you have multiple dreads in siege mode.
Also doable with a Zephyr :)
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Seller of Wormholes. |
Yokomaki
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 17:13:00 -
[115] - Quote
Thanks for this guide, it's helping our corp come up with a long term training plan. What is the raw incoming dps from an 8 BS escalation wave? |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
873
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 17:20:00 -
[116] - Quote
Yokomaki wrote:Thanks for this guide, it's helping our corp come up with a long term training plan. What is the raw incoming dps from an 8 BS escalation wave?
Low enough to be easily tanked on a single repper by any capital ship.
Is it just me, or is the Revelation looking like it might actually be better for escalations than the Moros? (assuming C5 Wolf-Rayet) Looks like the Rev gets more tank, more damage (at mid-30kms) and only slightly less tracking. Am I crazy? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
279
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 19:06:00 -
[117] - Quote
Yokomaki wrote:Thanks for this guide, it's helping our corp come up with a long term training plan. What is the raw incoming dps from an 8 BS escalation wave?
Sustained damage from 8 guardians on a capital is 5k dps as close as makes no difference, you'd want a little more repping power than that tho to keep things comfortable. The neuting is potentially more of an issue than the dps on a well fit capital.
I've rarely had any issues repping full aggro from 8+ guardians on one repper tho. |
Yokomaki
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 19:58:00 -
[118] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Yokomaki wrote:Thanks for this guide, it's helping our corp come up with a long term training plan. What is the raw incoming dps from an 8 BS escalation wave? Sustained damage from 8 guardians on a capital is 5k dps as close as makes no difference, you'd want a little more repping power than that tho to keep things comfortable. The neuting is potentially more of an issue than the dps on a well fit capital. I've rarely had any issues repping full aggro from 8+ guardians on one repper tho.
Thanks for the help. I've been plugging in 2 heavy neuts per Guardian in EFT to see what my cap would look like. I think that is a bit overkill though? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
280
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 20:03:00 -
[119] - Quote
IIRC they neut -36cap/s per guardian which is slightly less than 2x t1 heavy neuts. Usually aslong as your killing them at a fair rate the neuting isn't a major issue but it can be if theres any hold up i.e. someone going afk at the wrong time. |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2100
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 23:30:00 -
[120] - Quote
numbers I use for the neuts is that a wave is roughly equiv to a bhaal with amarr BS 4. *shrug*
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