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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:06:00 -
[31]
Originally by: StuRyan Edited by: StuRyan on 17/01/2011 15:08:52 "Much of the CSM agreed that alliance logistics is too easy, but there are some edge cases (in particular, items that have both high volumes and quantities) that could be significantly hurt by making logistics more challenging. ...
such as?
minerals? make mining ALL minerals worth it.
ammo/ships/stuff? with minerals available, build your own stuff locally.
why bother with logistics if you could have local industry and market? ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:09:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Pohbis I to, would like to raise the barrier to entry for 0.0 to having 3-4 personal cyno alts and a Titan.
The problem with JBs is the ability to project capital power halfway across the map at a heartbeat. Not that it makes logistics too easy. Camp the damn JBs if you want to disrupt logistics.
I think they need to go even further by nerfing the jump range for all capital ships in the game except jump freighters and rorqs. Cap spam is too easy to toss about like a frigate gang and needs to be made much much more strategic in its planning and use.
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:10:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/01/2011 16:11:10
Originally by: Pohbis I to, would like to raise the barrier to entry for 0.0 to having 3-4 personal cyno alts and a Titan.
The problem with JBs is the ability to project capital power halfway across the map at a heartbeat. Not that it makes logistics too easy. Camp the damn JBs if you want to disrupt logistics.
Maybe the problem is not so much the JBs but what can jump. Restricting the JBs to nothing bigger than battleships and reducing the fuel upkeep for the JBs might add some interest.
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OmniBeton
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Kuseka Adama
Jump Bridges make it possible to defend territory without having to go 30 jumps through the ******* gatecamps.
If you have 30 enemy gatecamps in your territory then you already failed at defending it.
Originally by: Kuseka Adama
They'd be logging in being forced to patrol their space in a desperate attempt for the large alliances to keep what they have.
I thought that in game about fighting with other players over teritory THIS is what you do for fun. If not, then try some other game ... farmville maybe ?
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Kuseka Adama
Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:20:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kuseka Adama on 17/01/2011 16:22:15
Originally by: OmniBeton
Originally by: Kuseka Adama
Jump Bridges make it possible to defend territory without having to go 30 jumps through the ******* gatecamps.
If you have 30 enemy gatecamps in your territory then you already failed at defending it.
Originally by: Kuseka Adama
They'd be logging in being forced to patrol their space in a desperate attempt for the large alliances to keep what they have.
I thought that in game about fighting with other players over teritory THIS is what you do for fun. If not, then try some other game ... farmville maybe ?
1. No. But any given day you'll find 3-4 gatecamps or roaming gangs flying through your space. Point being you try to get a fleet to anything more than 10 jumps away you're gonna have an unintact fleet when you arrive.
2. Fun is when its a couple hours a day. Not every ****ing waking second when you're logged in. Which is what would be forced upon players here. I like pvp i'm a pvper. Doesnt mean i can take being logged in every second doing only that.
Taking names and kicking ass. All in the search for Bubblegum. |
Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kuseka Adama 1. No. But any given day you'll find 3-4 gatecamps or roaming gangs flying through your space point being you try to get a fleet to anything more than 10 jumps away you're gonna have an unintact fleet when you arrive.
2. Fun is when its a couple hours a day. Not every ****ing waking second when you're logged in. Which is what would be forced upon players here. I like pvp i'm a pvper. Doesnt mean i can take being logged in every second doing only that.
I too have seen the average nullsec gate camp and roving gang.
It won't stand up for even a millisecond to a battle fleet on the move.
As far as the every waking minute comment are you the only member of your corp that is available for defensive operations? If so then you need to fire your recruiter and/or operations planner.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:27:00 -
[37]
Hey, the firework finally made it to General Discussions.. took just 2 days.. or?
Also for all the doomsayers..
JB removal is on the table together with OTHER changes, boosts as well as nerfs. JB removal will not happen solely and the chance for it to happen is not 100%.
See the comment thread about it in the New Dev Blog: CSM December Summit - Meeting minutes (Part 3of 3)
If you're a zero-zero citizen and have any ideas/concerns/proposals for changes for the problems CCP seees out there.. and what ever else you feel should be incorporated into a 2nd zero-zero-overhaul.. get your heads together, make some drafts and go to the fanfest with this stuff (or send someone). Demand a roundtable/paneldiscussion for it. Good luck. support Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kuseka Adama ...Jump Bridges make it possible to defend territory without having to go 30 jumps through the ******* gatecamps....
If that is the reality of your situation then you bloody well deserve to lose a ton of systems .. you will probably be stronger for it. Let me elaborate; Over extended entities that can't even prevent their own space from being camped and rely on bridges to bypass all the bad people with their blob/fleet to get to whatever remote system that is being contested has no justification for existing and should either die off or shrink to a manageable size.
As for people running away to whatever lame grind copy-cat "competition" .. JB's are a convenience, a luxury. Sprawling markets and empires existed in null long before they were introduced .. they just made daily life there a cakewalk.
Organization, planning and cooperation is "all" it takes, null shouldn't be a place where the lazy and complacent can survive .. that is what high-sec is for.
- Boost 0.0 manufacturing capabilities. - Allow for an industrial bridge network. - Sort out the ridiculous balance of moons. - Make PI a source of nearly every raw material in game. - Fix the damn Sov system.
Cut the high-sec umbilical cord that grew back when JB's came into being and null might actually be worth the :effort:
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Hakkar'al Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:44:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Unless of course you feel the tiny insignificant portion of the community that voted for the tinier and even more insignificant csm speak for everyone then?
If you don't vote, don't blame those who do. Also, CSM is insignificant? Hmm ... what was the discussion all about again?
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Mr Mvoice
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:45:00 -
[40]
Great,
Yes, please get rid of them JB's... it will make the Large Alliances suffer.
0.0 Space will finally be open, and Sov wars promised with Dominion will finally happen, these big alliances will have to re-think how they defend there space, or hold it - as they hold more space than they really need. All the large alliances only manage to hold large regions, and too much space, by easy transport of players between systems.
I cant wait for the day Jump Bridges will be signed to History
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Josefius
Gallente JOKAS Industries Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 16:51:00 -
[41]
Small alliances use Jump Bridges too.
Originally by: Mr Mvoice Great,
Yes, please get rid of them JB's... it will make the Large Alliances suffer.
0.0 Space will finally be open, and Sov wars promised with Dominion will finally happen, these big alliances will have to re-think how they defend there space, or hold it - as they hold more space than they really need. All the large alliances only manage to hold large regions, and too much space, by easy transport of players between systems.
I cant wait for the day Jump Bridges will be signed to History
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:09:00 -
[42]
If they remove JBs I will quit EVE and RMT all my stuff.
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:11:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Mr Mvoice Great,
Yes, please get rid of them JB's... it will make the Large Alliances suffer.
0.0 Space will finally be open, and Sov wars promised with Dominion will finally happen, these big alliances will have to re-think how they defend there space, or hold it - as they hold more space than they really need. All the large alliances only manage to hold large regions, and too much space, by easy transport of players between systems.
I cant wait for the day Jump Bridges will be signed to History
How do you know the alliances hold more space then they can use?
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:12:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Hakkar'al Gallente
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Unless of course you feel the tiny insignificant portion of the community that voted for the tinier and even more insignificant csm speak for everyone then?
If you don't vote, don't blame those who do. Also, CSM is insignificant? Hmm ... what was the discussion all about again?
If you really think the hodgepodge circus act of players that is the current sitting csm has any influance whatsoever on the decisions ccp make about the game mechanics then all I can say is lol.
CCP is not a democracy. It's a dictatorship.
Now what ccp gets out of the csm deal is marketing fluff to hand out to the gaming sites and if the recent blog is any indication they graduated the cms to whipping boy status. So what do we as the average eve player who didn't vote for the csm get out of it? A nice organized forum section where the real things that concern the players get posted for ccp to look at.(one might say we already have the features and ideas forum for that but the csm also plays another important role in forum participation that I won't get into) I mean do you really think ccp needs the csm to tell them about the stuff they already read about on the forums with the pages and pages of comments and ideas from the real players of the game? I don't need to vote for some attention seeking players looking for a free ride to iceland to have ccp know what I think about the game and then have them act upon it.
Again lol.
As far as the discussion in this thread people need to know its ccp doing this change and not the csm. Plus its a change I'm greatly in favor of that has been discussed for ages.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:15:00 -
[45]
Just put up an alliance sanctioned candidate, order your peons to vote for it and there - you have CSM composed of people who do represent the greater 0.0 community. Considering the relatively low number of voters it's not THAT hard. The next CSM election will be in the spring - i.e., before they manage to do anything about jump bridges, jump system or even think properly through how they will nerf the moms.
If you can get 1500 people (on your side) to stare at black screen for few hours listening other guys breathe heavy in teamspeak while the system loads then getting em to just push the button for candidate X should not be considerably harder. All it takes is the mail from the alliance leader "Vote X, he is our alliance main candidate".
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:21:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Carniflex Just put up an alliance sanctioned candidate, order your peons to vote for it and there - you have CSM composed of people who do represent the greater 0.0 community. Considering the relatively low number of voters it's not THAT hard. The next CSM election will be in the spring - i.e., before they manage to do anything about jump bridges, jump system or even think properly through how they will nerf the moms.
If you can get 1500 people (on your side) to stare at black screen for few hours listening other guys breathe heavy in teamspeak while the system loads then getting em to just push the button for candidate X should not be considerably harder. All it takes is the mail from the alliance leader "Vote X, he is our alliance main candidate".
Tbh a thread on the forums with 1500 unique posters would be far far far more effective in getting your points across to ccp.
Just sayin.
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MaxxOmega
Caldari Temporal Mechanics
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:24:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kuseka Adama You guys must really want one alliance ruling everything...
Null sec life is a *****
Jump Bridges make it possible to defend territory without having to go 30 jumps through the ******* gatecamps. They make it possible for the grand game to continue. You want null sec to be a place where a thousand little groups skirmish instead of some of the legendary pvp plotlines that have put this game on the friggin MAP!?
Before CCP goes and does such a thing let me run a few things by you.
1. War Dec corps raise nine kinds of hell with alliance logistics. Privateer alliance and the like live off raising hell and kiling off jump freighters of the big gun alliances. Hell they even have a schedule where they rotate their wardecs to make sure they hit everyone. JF's are high value targets and the main train of an alliance 'logistics' chain. They're worth every isk spent. Even with JF's every run is a goddamned gamble. JB's for the most part also give pilots jump in points as they 're paired with Cyno Beacons. And god forbid someone actually hit a freighter carrying system upgrade stuff.
2. Military: JB's allow for centralized sovereignty allowing players to station out of a system. It was done without JB's before but i'm willing to bet the burnout factor is a hell of a lot higher it'd turn a game where spending hours setting up a structure becomes micro-maintenance of every system you own You'd have people popping up outposts left and right to overcome half of what would happen. Players wouldnt be logging in to have fun. They'd be logging in being forced to patrol their space in a desperate attempt for the large alliances to keep what they have. The burn out factor would be noticable and extreme. You'd see a mass exodus from null sec by the current playerbase if not a flat out cancellation of subscriptions. PVP is supposed to be a semi fun thing to do. Not a job and i gotta tell you. With the constant crap and 'cta's' that get thrown around my own alliance on a weekly sometimes hourly basis. It's already close to a point where it cant be fun for some people. This change would start a chain of events that would smash all of the major alliances save the macros. (IE russians.) I get a lot of people would like to see the NC fall apart and maybe that's whats at the heart of this but you know what. Maybe someone should try to ****ing BEAT US on the field of battle.
3. Markets. Null sec is a market. Right now its prices are at least halfway close to jita. JB's are no small link in how this happens. The hard to find items of eve make their way to Jita. If you want to destroy that system this would be a HUGE help in how that happened. I'd say Null sec items make up the majority of the Jita marketplace. Officer's in particular. But you'd be shocked at how much of common/supply items gets bought there. Better than 85% of the purchases probably come from null sec cash. Remove easy or decent access to that market and you remove reason for players to be there at all.
It's very simple. Remove JB's and watch the subscription rate fall off very quickly. In a time where CCP is getting a lot of competition from up and coming new games (DCUO and TOR.) A move like that would have people spending their hard earned cash elsewhere. Removal would once again make sov warfare the ultimate CHORE. It is already hard enough of a pain to try to get people for these things. You already have to be as tense as a friggin coiled snake and twice as alert as a cat when you're flying through null sec over any serious distance. To make players do that 5-6 times a day on 20 jump runs both ways? Doing this would be a significant mistake. JB's may seem like an easy mode. But the alternative is far worse. It should also be pointed out: Major alliances existed before JB's. The measures required to keep them intact were Draconian however. I dont know about most players. I wouldn't join alliances with those conditions.
Best Post Here
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: MaxxOmega
Originally by: Kuseka Adama ... BEAT US on the field of battle.
...
Best Post Here
if ship combat is all that matters, why have sovereignty? why have losses? why not make arenas and have clean balanced fight where betters win? skip all the logistic and grind and roams and whatnot, and get to the fun.
but would that be EVE working as intended? ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:34:00 -
[49]
Originally by: StuRyan Yes hurt the cap's, hurt the logistcs but don't get rid of JB's.
Reading some of your replies i think you also miss the point that whole fleets have been lost on JB's.
Don't get rid of them completely make them accessible to certain types of ships. Its already hard enough looking for GF's.
you use JB networks to go to look for fights ?
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wraith.Wing Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:39:00 -
[50]
CSM 2010/2011, now officially sponsored by Pandemic Legion and Darkside.
Jump bridges are a means of defence, it allows the sov-holding entity a means to attack or evade on their terms on their own turf.
Tell you what. You can take our jump bridges. However, only when all NPC 0.0 systems that exist within otherwise conquerable regions are made into Conquerable systems (I'm looking at you Sisters of Eve, Mordus Angels, and Serpentis). And only if a method is devised for sov-holders to deactivate jump bridges between systems they hold sov in.
As it stands, systems like the NPC ones in Pure Blind make it far too easy for raiders to stage out of hostile territory and evade persuers. If you want to take away the only means we have to counter our regions being overrun by small raiding gangs who can go into hiding at will, we need a means to be able to force them out of our regions. Your welcome to come raiding, but you will have to break through our perimeter, and then get out afterwards; or stage from a pos which we can burn down to deny you the hiding hole. You cant just sit invulnerable in an NPC station surrounded on all sides by our territory, mooning us out the windows.
Which brings me to my point about being able to deactivate jump gates in our territory. Its our territory, let us cut down the routes of access to it if we want. If we cant evade raiders within our borders, let us be able to put up a defence at the border, without there being a dozen alternative routes they can slip through.
Sure, my ideas suck, but so does placing territory owners at the mercy of elite roaming gangs. If your going to take away one of our means to defend ourselves, give us others.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Keta Fraal First, I would like to say: why post with acronyms? Any educated writer knows that the use of acronyms is reserved for the second and consecutive references to a subject that is common in the document. How much easier is "JB" than "Jump Bridges"?
Then you refer to JBs(Jump Bridges) being mentioned somewhere in a document that is nine pages in length. Are you trying to exclude from the discussion all readers that per chance don't "get" your reference to "JB"s?
Oh, i thought this was about Jack Bauer
Yours truly, Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2011.01.17 17:50:00 -
[52]
Who needs industry at all in 0.0 with the current mechanics? Having space farther out in 0.0 means nothing anymore with jump bridges and jump freightors.
Screw um.
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
Kal XL
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:05:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Keta Fraal ... No good ever comes from restricting economic activity...
Thanks for that, I lol'd hard.
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Syndicate.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:10:00 -
[54]
This really won't help local industry. Who the hell uses jump bridges to move massive amounts of material anyway?
For moderate to large amounts, they use Jump Freighters For truly massive amounts they use Titan Portaled Freighters.
All this will do is hurt small time alliance traders. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:12:00 -
[55]
I really hope they will do this.
null sec has become a farmers paradise. The empires have grown fat and lazy. There is no more escorts of freights and all the associated smaller size pvp. I would welcome this and even would go that far as to limit the jump ranges on all capitals to boot.
This would promote local markets in 0.0 local mining industry and the associated different skill sets needed also it would force the alliances to shrink the size of their claimed systems and build more infrastructure on the periphery of their claimed systems to have sort of a frontier garrisons and rotate them if needed. Strategic planning local ship resupply caches and similar strategies would have to be implemented. Similarly for the attacker it would pose logistical challenges and planning for larger campaigns.
People got lazy that is all
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Raydn James
Secret Squirrel Readiness Group Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:15:00 -
[56]
Good Riddance!
There was a time before JBs that large blocks still had lots of space but time and effort was required to do so.
Large Blocs had large industrial wings that produced most everything needed to survive.
Moving multiple freighters along 40 jumps lead to massive battles.
Jump bridges are convenient, not gonna lit, but they reduced the need to have true industrial characters in the alliance and actually reduced the amount of fights in null, imo.
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Aralyn Cormallen CSM 2010/2011, now officially sponsored by Pandemic Legion and Darkside.
Jump bridges are a means of defence, it allows the sov-holding entity a means to attack or evade on their terms on their own turf.
Tell you what. You can take our jump bridges. However, only when all NPC 0.0 systems that exist within otherwise conquerable regions are made into Conquerable systems (I'm looking at you Sisters of Eve, Mordus Angels, and Serpentis). And only if a method is devised for sov-holders to deactivate jump bridges between systems they hold sov in.
As it stands, systems like the NPC ones in Pure Blind make it far too easy for raiders to stage out of hostile territory and evade persuers. If you want to take away the only means we have to counter our regions being overrun by small raiding gangs who can go into hiding at will, we need a means to be able to force them out of our regions. Your welcome to come raiding, but you will have to break through our perimeter, and then get out afterwards; or stage from a pos which we can burn down to deny you the hiding hole. You cant just sit invulnerable in an NPC station surrounded on all sides by our territory, mooning us out the windows.
Which brings me to my point about being able to deactivate jump gates in our territory. Its our territory, let us cut down the routes of access to it if we want. If we cant evade raiders within our borders, let us be able to put up a defence at the border, without there being a dozen alternative routes they can slip through.
Sure, my ideas suck, but so does placing territory owners at the mercy of elite roaming gangs. If your going to take away one of our means to defend ourselves, give us others.
Out of this post one thing that you are right about is the part with the NPC 0.0 islands in otherwise claimable 0.0
That could be handled by simply allowing people to shoot station services in those islands. Not much of a base for raiders when you can not even fit a ship
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:21:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Aralyn Cormallen Sure, my ideas suck, but so does placing territory owners at the mercy of elite roaming gangs. If your going to take away one of our means to defend ourselves, give us others.
If only CCP would let you obtain ships, and guns to fit to those ships, then maybe you could defend yourselves _____________________ Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like. |
Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Syndicate.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Raydn James
Moving multiple freighters along 40 jumps lead to massive battles.
Yeah, because CCP still haven't given us freighters with Jump Drives... Or the ability to open some kind of Jump Portal to some where else....
and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:31:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Culmen
Originally by: Raydn James
Moving multiple freighters along 40 jumps lead to massive battles.
Yeah, because CCP still haven't given us freighters with Jump Drives... Or the ability to open some kind of Jump Portal to some where else....
I'm pretty sure the minutes suggest that JFs (being capitals) and titan bridging is on the nerf list too. just removing JBs isn't going to fix anything, you have to take a proper comprehensive approach _____________________ Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like. |
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