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Taisuke Black
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Posted - 2011.01.19 06:37:00 -
[1]
I very much like the legion as a ship, but something needs to be done about it. There are a number of roles the Tengu fills like no ship has filled before, but the legion is severely limited in its use. EHP buffer legions are the only setups that actually do better than a battlecruiser in the same role.
One of the greatest demand for ships is to be able to produce decent damage while tanking around 400-800 dps of a specific band like kin/therm. The legion can do this if it's explosive/kinetic, but that's the rarest NPC damage type in the entire game. Almost every role a legion can do, a tengu can do better. And the reason is a fundamental lack of focus.
There are a few things that an Amarr T3 cruiser SHOULD NOT HAVE:
1. It should not have the ability to have 5 medium slots. 2. It should not have the ability to have only 3 low slots!!!! 3. It should not have a laser capacitor bonus in a configuration with only 4 lasers.
A few small changes could make the legion radically better by improving its crappy configurations, while leaving its already good setups completely untouched.
First, remove the medium-slot conversion for the covert ops and drone offensive subsystems. None of the other T3's have slot changes for their offensive subs, why should the legion?
Second, change the defensive subs so that they alternate a high slot with a medium, instead of a high with a low. The Tengu absolutely NEEDS med slots, so it cannot go below 5 of them. In the same way, the Legion NEEDS low slots, making any configuration with less than 5 of them a crippled ship. This is not flexibility, it's a trap for the players to fall into.
The current slot boundaries for the Legion are as follows: Low: 3-7 Medium: 3-5 High: 5-7
What I'm proposing would turn it into this: Low: 5-7 Medium: 2-4 High: 5-7
For reference, the Tengu is this: Low: 2-5 Medium: 5-7 High: 5-7
It seems pretty clear that the Tengu's options play to its strengths, while the Legion's are counter-intuitive and some are even self-destructive. The Proteus cannot have less than 5 low slots, and the Loki has defensive subs that support either kind of tank.
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One thing I want to make very clear: this change would do absolutely nothing to buffer-laser fits. It would do nothing to 1800dps-tanked 250dps-dealing HAM fits. What it WOULD affect are the drones+interdiction nullifier fits that nobody uses, and the 400dps-tank ratting setups that have LOWER STATS THAN A DRAKE.
If you have any doubts as to the imbalance here, just look at market data for the T3 ships. People sell maybe 1/5 as many Legions as they do Tengus, yet the buffer and laser subsystems remain at a high price. It's because they're the ONLY subsystems people can use, and the fear of being overpowered has lead the devs to accidentally ruin the rest of the ship's options.
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Finally, change the Covert Ops subsystem to a damage or even rof bonus. It's got 4, maybe 5 guns, who cares how much cap they take? People just use autocannons on their cov-ops legions with 3-4 low slots. You know, so they can cloak, fly to the station and get their Cov-ops cloaking, ganking Tengu.
I very much hope that CCP will take a look at the STRONG evidence I've gathered here and make some small changes that will go a long way.
/rant
To anybody who actually read this entire post, I sincerely thank you.
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Alghara
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Posted - 2011.01.19 07:07:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Alghara on 19/01/2011 07:07:34 The big problem with the legion, it's only because CCP make some crazy choice with Amarr.
Normaly the legion must be configured :
Cruiser HAS RECON EW - Cruiser
When you are caldary that is not really a problem because in all case you tank shield and the weapons it's at 80 % missiles.
Amarr : HAS like Zealot (Tanking Armor, no drone, Weapons Laser) HAS like Sacrilege ( Tanking Armor, small drone, weapons Heavy assault missile) Extra capa Curse and Pilgrim ( Tanking Mixte , Massive drone , more missile than laser ) EW
The legion with the configuration sacrilege or Curse is good. But the version Zealot is not terrible. The best way will be perhaps in this configuration to make +1 low and -1 medium slot. That will be better than now.
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Taisuke Black
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Posted - 2011.01.19 15:47:00 -
[3]
Supporting my own Proposal. I think a lot of the people who cared about the legion in the past have moved on and are no longer monitoring these threads. I will artificially keep bumping this if I have to, because I believe it's a clear improvement and no good argument can be made against it.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:41:00 -
[4]
Yes the Legion needs something.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.19 18:55:00 -
[5]
I support the general idea of shifting 1 medium slot into low slot for Legion
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2011.01.19 21:33:00 -
[6]
I can't remember the last time I saw someone flying a Legion. Lokis? Yes. Proteuses? Yes. Tengus? I fly one myself. Legions? HELL NO. -- Need a break from EVE? |
DeftCrow Redriver
Best Path Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.20 00:23:00 -
[7]
As someone who personally flies the Legion, I support this change. 4 Low slots on a Covert Ops setup is a joke.
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Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.20 03:06:00 -
[8]
Yep, "super-tanked baitship" is not a real role. But I guess CCP can easily access and check the stats for T3 ships and subsystems sold in comparison, can't they? Maybe just need a nudge to actually do it... In order to realize if and where a rebalancing is in order.
Additionally, considering due to background stuff et al. HAMs are supposed to be one of the two amarr-ish missile systems (together with rockets). A minor tweak to make sure a Legion with HAMs does actually better than a Tengu with HAMs might be in order as well.
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Nergart
GWA Corp
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:56:00 -
[9]
yeh i fly a legion and tengu, and the legion could definatly use an improvement
that would defintly work Low: 5-7 Medium: 2-4 High: 5-7
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Rafia Landras Audeles
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Posted - 2011.01.21 18:19:00 -
[10]
Makes perfect sense.
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Loed Kane
Amarr Pacific Dawn Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.22 18:45:00 -
[11]
+1
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Taisuke Black
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Posted - 2011.02.01 21:18:00 -
[12]
Bump.
I had originally wanted this thread to have a 100% support rate, to illustrate the concrete need for the change. I suppose I was being too proud.
During initial testing, CCP found they enjoyed using shield buffer tanks for their Legions, allowing them to fit excellent damage and speed with their high medium slot count. However, the lack of any shield bonuses makes this a bad idea that should have been dropped instead of clung to. Even then, getting 5 medium slots isn't worth the terrible damage output of the drone and covert ops subsystems. The curse enjoys the most medium slots of any Amarr ship, only because it has excellent EWAR bonuses. Perhaps a tracking disruptor bonus was intended for the 5th legion subsystem, but with the apparent cancellation of that project the 5th medium slot NEEDS TO GO. |
Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.02.02 00:29:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Arushia on 02/02/2011 00:29:40 Supported. Amarr with 4 lows or less is fail.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done! |
Zarutha
The Night Crew
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Posted - 2011.02.02 04:07:00 -
[14]
agreed
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.02 15:19:00 -
[15]
Amarr is the low-slot happy race, having the same or less than others is an affront to the entire concept of racial differences.
Low: 5-8 Mid: 3-4 High: 5-7
Don't even try to sell the possibility of a two midslot T3 cruiser, that is just beyond gimp. It is bad enough that some of the frigates and the dessie are so midslot deficient.
Otherwise a decent analysis. No support due to wanting a 2 mid solution and "only" 7 lows.
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Taisuke Black
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Posted - 2011.02.16 18:18:00 -
[16]
bump. Who else thinks this is a good idea?
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Lloyd20 Azizora
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Posted - 2011.02.16 19:13:00 -
[17]
supported. also, the legion can have 8 highs.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.02.17 11:14:00 -
[18]
Yes please.
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Davader
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:58:00 -
[19]
Supporting
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Styria Strike
Amarr Axial tilt The Babylon Consortium
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Posted - 2011.02.19 23:33:00 -
[20]
yes please fix it
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Soon Shin
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Posted - 2011.02.20 07:55:00 -
[21]
Supported, the legion gets a 4 mid and 6 low configuration when you try to use a 6 gun/missile configuration.
The proteus however can get a 3 mid and 7 low configuration when using 6 guns which allows for better tank and/or dps.
The proteus and Loki also get drones for their gun/missile subsystems and the legion don't get any drones for its laser or missile subs, the drone synthesis is useless, you're better off in an arbitrator if that's the case.
If the legion were to get no drones, it should get more dps bonus for its lasers and missiles subsystems.
The Legion in its HAM configuration only does 6% more dps than a NONKINETIC HAM Tengu. When using kinetic the Tengu does 20% more dps than the Legion and it also get a RANGE BONUS while the Legion doesn't. The Tengu gets a 7.5% Rof, 5% Kinetic DMG, and 10% velocity Bonus.
The Legion only gets 5% Rof and 5% damage bonus on the HAMs. There is something seriously wrong with this!
The Legion does only 8% more dps than the Zealot while having the same weakness of having no drones!
The Legion does only 3% more dps than the Harbinger when the Harbinger doesn't use its drones!
The legion definitely need a fix!
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Marconus Orion
Global Criminal Countdown
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Posted - 2011.02.20 10:54:00 -
[22]
HAM Legion with 100 mn afterburner says hi.
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Styria Strike
Amarr Axial tilt The Babylon Consortium
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Posted - 2011.02.20 21:03:00 -
[23]
ive flown many different legion setups, best worked the HAM one.
Now i have a drone legion, but controling only 2 Ogre IIs, thats a joke right?
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Jokerface666
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:33:00 -
[24]
Fully supported, my Favorite Ship is the legion, and it's outgunned ALWAYS by corpmates in tengus, proteus, lokis, sometimes even in damn tengus....
The only thing a legion is really good at is beeing a MINI-BHALGORN....
SUPPORTED! + 10 w00t w00t wtfpwnage train |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.02.21 16:22:00 -
[25]
Seems reasonable. Don't see a lot of people flying the legion. This change makes sense. Amarr ships should have plenty of low slots. Mid slot heavy laser ships are Sansha, not Amarr.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Marconus Orion
Global Criminal Countdown
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Posted - 2011.02.21 16:23:00 -
[26]
I just can't support buffing the Legion more. Amarr is king of so many ship classes, not being king of T3 is fine. Besides, the HAM Legion works great so your crying about how it is utter crap is false.
Gallente has the Proteus which is a good long range tackler. Soon as it its close it suffers from Hybrid Turret Syndrome. Basically it is ****ed.
HAM Legion has great speed, selectable damage type, can apply said damage without having to get in scram/web/neut range. Oh and by the way, as far as drones goes, the Ishtar still outclasses the Proteus.
If any race ship gets looked at it damn well better be a Gallente one. The entire line up is outclassed by some other race with ease.
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Mamba Lev
Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2011.02.24 11:39:00 -
[27]
/Signed
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Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.02.25 05:06:00 -
[28]
In addition to everything above, Drone Synthesis Projector really needs a fix. Either more bandwidth to make it a proper drone system, or another turret slot to make it a split-weapon system.
Supported.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done! |
Taisuke Black
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Posted - 2011.03.01 07:18:00 -
[29]
Lol you guys, we've got like 6 people who say they support this but didn't hit the support button. It's right there beneath your text box, and it's what the CSM looks at. :)
I want to take another look at the drone subsystem, since I don't know too much about it...
Historically, Amarr have been the secondary drone race after Gallente. Actually they're the secondary race of several things but that's fine because laser damage is so very limited. In any case, there has been one ceiling placed on Amarr ships to keep them in second place behind Gallente, and that is their bandwidth.
"No Amarr ship with drone bonuses shall wield heavy drones or sentries," is the rule CCP set when they started giving Amarr ships drones, and I actually agree with them. I like that the Curse and Pilgrim have a good amount of drone damage but they can't go over it, it's a hard ceiling. Still, it's kind of sad for the Legion to be dealing the same damage as a pilgrim. 4 unbonused lasers is pitiful and nobody will fit them even if the Drone subsystem swaps a medium slot out for a low slot.
So this is the bonus I propose:
15% drone damage per level (up from 10%, it still won't be dealing much damage) 5% drone hitpoints per level (Gallente get to be king of drone durability) 5% drone MWD speed.
I considered 10% drone speed but that's probably too much. The reasoning is that a proteus or ishtar can drop sentries when the enemy is far away, but the legion cannot. Also, drone legions almost always have energy neuts instead of guns, but without a range bonus they need to get in close. In this situation the drone bonus is all but useless as you don't need your drones to travel.
This is just a suggestion, please give your support if you think the original post is a step in the right direction. Then let me know what you think of ideas like this one.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.03.26 16:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aamrr
A DPS Tengu has 12 launcher hardpoints. Upgrade the laser subsystem to give a 15% damage bonus per level, instead of 10%. You'll get 10.5 effective hardpoints, and the problem will be mostly solved. Oh, and we'll actually have a reason to upgrade over a zealot that has 8.33.
A covert Tengu has 6.25 launcher hardpoints. Upgrade the covops subsystem to have 2 turrets instead of four, but give a 100% role bonus to laser damage, and change the bonus to be a 5% bonus to optimal instead. You'll get 6 effective hardpoints, and the problem will be mostly solved. You might need to kill some utility high slots, though, as that might be overpowered when combined with the energy neutralization subsystem.
Missile subsystem is working more or less as intended. It can't use HMLs, and it doesn't do as much kinetic damage as a Tengu, but in the event that you have to shoot another damage type they come out more or less equal, with the Tengu having an edge due to its range bonus. Caldari are supposed to have better missile systems, but an explosion radius/velocity bonus couldn't hurt.
Drone subsystem? More bandwidth? Fsck if I know.
Then fix the electronics subsystems so they all give one fewer midslot and one more low slot.
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