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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:42:00 -
[1]
Alright, Defenders are useless, almost any situation you would want to use them for, fitting something else is always going to make you more effective in that situation. So what needs to be changed? I say it is the Defenders' use itself that needs changing.
So the idea here is to add a utility high slot to all ships that don't have one already (even if that means some ships have 9 hi slots.
Bring in a new series of Launchers that do not require Launcher hardpoints on a ship. Only one of these can be fit on a given ship, so no Defenderboats.
Change Defenders into anti-drone defensive weapons. This would include Fighters and Fighter Bombers.
Adjust the Defender stats to handle this role.
Defenders would still target aggressive drones focused on the ship the Defenders are launched from ONLY. Your Defenders won't help your Basilisk pilot.
Defenders do not need a locked target, they are self targeting (thus allowing you to proactively act against ECM drones while jammed). Defender range should be relatively short, no more than 20-30 km (to limit the ability to use them to kill sentry drones).
The current Defender Missile Stats:
Max Velocity - 7500 m/s Volume - 0.015 Damage - 70 Explosive Max Flight Time - 10 sec
The current Defender Missile skill: 5% Max Velocity per level
New Defender Missile Stats:
Max Velocity - 1000 m/s Volume - 0.05 Damage - 500 Explosive Max Flight Time 12 sec Explosion Velocity - 250 m/s Explosion Radius - 100 m
New Defender Missile Skill: 5% Damage per level
All current missile skills apply to the New Defender Missile. The New Missile won't wholesale slaughter small drones, but it will be worth fitting against large drones, fighters, and fighter bombers. The exact stats of the missile are debatable as usual.
Every ship in the game must be able to fit one of these:
Point Defense Launcher I (all of these should have t2 versions as well)
CPU - 8 PG - 2 Capacity - 0.500 m3 (10 Defenders) RoF - 5 sec
Heavy Point Defense Launcher I
CPU - 30 PG - 40 Capacity - 1.000 m3 (20 Defenders) RoF - 7 sec
Siege Point Defense Launcher I
CPU - 50 PG - 1000 Capacity - 2.000 m3 (40 Defenders) RoF - 9 sec
Citadel Point Defense Launcher I
CPU - 100 PG - 70000 Capacity - 5.000 m3 (100 Defenders) RoF - 11 sec
NOTE: BCUs have no effect on Defenders or the PDLs.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Manalapan
Dynasty Banking General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.21 18:30:00 -
[2]
I think this is not useful at all. It is basically you raging against ECM drones (a little more intelligently than another thread). This purpose is already filled by smartbombs. The unique slot is also problematic and the automatic means it works nerfs drones to too large of an extent. Support Manalapan for CSM!
We must stand together against the oppressive neo-carebears. A vote for Manalapan is a vote for Scammers and Griefers everywhere!
http://www.dyco-eve.com/Manal |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.21 18:38:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Manalapan I think this is not useful at all. It is basically you raging against ECM drones (a little more intelligently than another thread).
Have you actually had to fight a droneswarm? It's like a GoonSwarm without killmails and loot. Targeting drones is difficult without adding them to overview and doing THAT just creates all kinds of chaos.
Quote: This purpose is already filled by smartbombs.
Well, except Smartbombs can't be used everywhere drones can be.
Quote: The unique slot is also problematic and the automatic means it works nerfs drones to too large of an extent.
What unique slot?
And what is automatic?
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Leovarian Lavitz
Minmatar Ghost Tribal Credit Union Sspectre
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Posted - 2011.01.21 18:54:00 -
[4]
FOF missiles will auto-engage aggressive drones.
This product and or service is not supported for that reason alone.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.21 19:07:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Leovarian Lavitz FOF missiles will auto-engage aggressive drones.
This product and or service is not supported for that reason alone.
Alright, where is the Launcher Slot on my Armageddon?
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.01.21 20:31:00 -
[6]
OK, we get it, you hate drones. Lets make a series of ships useless ok? Then again it would make that drone HP bonus more useful... anyway, without being able to reload your drone bay in space without going to a fitting service, this is a dumb idea.
Why not make defenders into the EWAR they are supposed to be? Make them directed, not random. You target a ship, you engage your defenders at that ship, ships missiles go boom. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Tarin Adur
Gallente Don't Taze Me Bro
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Posted - 2011.01.21 20:38:00 -
[7]
So you want to give EVERY ship the capability to destroy drones....why the hate for drones? Gallente hybrid boats already suck, now you want to get rid of the only thing gallente still has going for it?
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.21 21:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker OK, we get it, you hate drones.
Then you don't get it.
Quote: Lets make a series of ships useless ok?
That's a bad idea. I'd rather buff.
Quote: Then again it would make that drone HP bonus more useful...
It would seem so.
Quote: anyway, without being able to reload your drone bay in space without going to a fitting service, this is a dumb idea.
What does that have to do with anything?
Quote: Why not make defenders into the EWAR they are supposed to be? Make them directed, not random. You target a ship, you engage your defenders at that ship, ships missiles go boom.
So you would rather make them overpowered vs missiles than have them be a relatively fair counter to drones?
Troll much?
Originally by: Tarin Adur So you want to give EVERY ship the capability to destroy drones...
EVERY ship already has that capability. This is just a fix for Defenders against something that IS a problem.
Quote: why the hate for drones?
I don't hate drones.
Quote: Gallente hybrid boats already suck,
Completely irrelevant.
Quote: now you want to get rid of the only thing gallente still has going for it?
I don't want to get rid of anything Chicken Little. I use drones all the time.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Tarin Adur
Gallente Don't Taze Me Bro
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Posted - 2011.01.21 21:15:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Tarin Adur on 21/01/2011 21:16:34
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Tarin Adur So you want to give EVERY ship the capability to destroy drones...
EVERY ship already has that capability. This is just a fix for Defenders against something that IS a problem.
If every ship has that capability, then i'm not seeing where this problem is. You can lock and shoot drones with anything, as you said, at the cost of not shooting the other ships, or having to fit a smartbomb. Your suggesting you give every ship the ability to destroy drones while not having to make any sort of sacrifice or compromise on fits.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.21 21:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tarin Adur Edited by: Tarin Adur on 21/01/2011 21:16:34
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Tarin Adur So you want to give EVERY ship the capability to destroy drones...
EVERY ship already has that capability. This is just a fix for Defenders against something that IS a problem.
If every ship has that capability, then i'm not seeing where this problem is.
Having the capability and that capability also being practical are two different things. It is not practical for a BS to have to target every drone that is attacking it, especially when you can simply recall the drone and redeploy it.
Quote: You can lock and shoot drones with anything, as you said, at the cost of not shooting the other ships, or having to fit a smartbomb.
Defenders being fixed is the best solution since you can't shoot drones that have jammed, TDed, damped etc you, and you can't use smartbombs everywhere you can use drones.
Quote: Your suggesting you give every ship the ability to destroy drones while not having to make any sort of sacrifice or compromise on fits.
No, I'm suggesting a fix for Defenders that adds a little risk to droneboats (who can also use Defenders now).
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
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Wrangler Al
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.21 21:50:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Wrangler Al on 21/01/2011 21:51:00 Basically what needs to happen for defenders to be any use is:
- Every ship in the game who cannot currently fit missiles would have to be given a missile slot
- Then you would have to create a super fast launcher making it a sort of flak defence
Then
- They would have to be changed so that they are Fire and Forget and will target the nearest hostile thing.
IF, and it is a big IF; this could be coded into EVE, then this would make defenders useful again
BUT you would have to have a restriction like only has the ammo loaded in the module on top of the fact that it would take up a Normal HI slot...
For things like this to be considered there has to be major negatives to get the positive result you desire...
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MarkyJ
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Posted - 2011.01.21 22:03:00 -
[12]
Now I'll admit defenders in their current incarnation are rather useless but this is...a problematic change. A couple of points I need to make; The armageddon (if I remember correctly) has a very large drone bay. Why not carry some light drones and set them on the enemies drones? If they pull their drones back then you've accomplished your goal of driving them off (even temporarily) and if they don't pull back then wipe them out. Once you've given them a target they attack enemies autonomously anyway. Or better yet, have a friend fly alongside tasked with anti-drone duties. If your ship cannot accomplish every job under the sun, then delegate some of those jobs to a friend. I believe you said on another thread that 'solo BS PvP is dead' so don't go solo. But my biggest gripe about your suggestion: Why add the extra slots? What's wrong with using standard missile hardpoints? If this means your ship is no longer capable of mounting it then just change ship, in the same way if I want to employ heavy ECM E-war then I will change ship to a scorpion or such and accept the weaker DPS. If your BS isn't perfect for the task then find one that is. You're going to have to sacrifice something for your anti-drone weapon.
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Taisuke Black
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Posted - 2011.01.22 01:01:00 -
[13]
I agree that defenders need a change.
I also think that smartbombs should have lower fitting requirements/capacitor needs. I would suggest a ship with a bonus to smartbombs but that would lead to some hilarity in Jita. Actually, you know what? We need a ship with a bonus to smartbombs!
There is one flaw with your idea though. 8 slots is the hard-coded limit for any and every ship. CCP said somewhere in the past (like 7 years ago when the game was new and people's suggestions were simpler) that the change would require serious coding on top of the already dubious balance of such a ship. No ship in Eve will ever have 9 of one type of slot.
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Mobins
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Posted - 2011.01.22 01:20:00 -
[14]
How about an rig (or an extra, if that's not as difficult to code as a slot) that can fit a special "defender rig launcher"?
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.22 04:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Wrangler Al They would have to be changed so that they are Fire and Forget and will target the nearest hostile thing.
They are already that way, just only for missiles.
Originally by: MarkyJ The armageddon (if I remember correctly) has a very large drone bay. Why not carry some light drones and set them on the enemies drones?
For that to work you need to target the enemy drones, which takes upwards of 15+ seconds, longer if those drones are also dampening or even jamming you. The Armageddon's best defense against drones is a Smartbomb... which is the same as having no defense against drones really.
Quote: If they pull their drones back then you've accomplished your goal of driving them off (even temporarily) and if they don't pull back then wipe them out. Once you've given them a target they attack enemies autonomously anyway.
If friendly drones would auto aggress enemy drones that were attacking you, that would be fine with me too. But it would create a new problem: It would hurt droneboats more than simply changing Defenders.
Quote: Or better yet, have a friend fly alongside tasked with anti-drone duties. If your ship cannot accomplish every job under the sun, then delegate some of those jobs to a friend. I believe you said on another thread that 'solo BS PvP is dead' so don't go solo.
Not a bad job for a destroyer honestly, infact killing drones is probably the most useful function they can perform. But this suggestion isn't just for solo BSes and in blobs drones tend to be left alone since taking them out is too much trouble and nobody wants to miss being on the killmails.
Quote: But my biggest gripe about your suggestion: Why add the extra slots? What's wrong with using standard missile hardpoints?
I'd be okay with that if every ship had at least one launcher hardpoint. But adding that as a requirement also hurts missileboats since they are sacrificing damage to fit a Defender launcher. So the Point Defense Launchers shouldn't require a launcher hardpoint.
Quote: You're going to have to sacrifice something for your anti-drone weapon.
Sacrificing fittings, cargo, and in some cases very useful hi slot modules isn't enough? Drones cost nothing to field in terms of a given ship's modular efficacy, and the counter takes a slot and fittings. I think it is fair.
Originally by: Taisuke Black I also think that smartbombs should have lower fitting requirements/capacitor needs. I would suggest a ship with a bonus to smartbombs but that would lead to some hilarity in Jita. Actually, you know what? We need a ship with a bonus to smartbombs!
Smartbomb pirates are already annoying enough.
Quote: 8 slots is the hard-coded limit for any and every ship. CCP said somewhere in the past (like 7 years ago when the game was new and people's suggestions were simpler) that the change would require serious coding on top of the already dubious balance of such a ship. No ship in Eve will ever have 9 of one type of slot.
Unless I am mistaken it is a self enforced limit, CCP doesn't want to open up the floodgates to more slots than 8 per power level, because it would add lag to the server (debatable) and would force a new fittings screen to be made... as well as a review of every module and ship currently in game.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
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