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Chatharsys
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Posted - 2011.02.09 16:48:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Goose99
Originally by: Obsession Paranoia
That gig is for NM, Paladins have grid issues when fitting tachs.
Paladin doesn't have any issues fitting tachyons. Not even t2. It can fit t2 tachs and a navy LAR, It can fit t2 tachs with t2 LAR and a 3% pg implant and it can fit t2 tachs with the largest LAR possible (officer LAR which needs 2800 pg) with a 5% pg implant (my case). That implant doesn't makes much compromise. If one can afford a paladin then it can afford a pg implant. So, yes, paladin is for tachyons.
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Renix Xerar
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Posted - 2011.02.11 03:57:00 -
[32]
I've decided to toss in the towel and buy a CNR...assuming it gets better dps than any amarr missioning ship..
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Renix Xerar
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Posted - 2011.02.13 01:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Renix Xerar I've decided to toss in the towel and buy a CNR...assuming it gets better dps than any amarr missioning ship..
Maybe not - with my skills the navy apoc gets much greater dps for much less training...and much more tank... Assuming with an Amarr agent I get more Blood/Sansha missions than anything else, I be good with that.
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Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
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Posted - 2011.02.13 05:01:00 -
[34]
I like my paladin.
I spent a year or so missioning with tachs and switched out to pulses however. I found that, while on paper tachs are awesome, in reality the narrow window of really great dps made things simply annoying. I am finding that clearing missions is much easier and faster with pulses. The thing with tachs is that it is really easy for your targets to get too close for the tracking, and while you are still doing damage, the damage is pitiful.
This is purely based on my personal experience of course, and has no EFT theorycrafting involved. I am just telling you what I personally have experienced when actually doing missions in the ship for extended periods of time.
This was with all applicable skills at 5 btw(gunnery, tank, support, ship etc... like I said, I like my paladin) --------------------------------------------
Quote: EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...
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Renix Xerar
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Posted - 2011.02.13 05:09:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts I like my paladin.
I spent a year or so missioning with tachs and switched out to pulses however. I found that, while on paper tachs are awesome, in reality the narrow window of really great dps made things simply annoying. I am finding that clearing missions is much easier and faster with pulses. The thing with tachs is that it is really easy for your targets to get too close for the tracking, and while you are still doing damage, the damage is pitiful.
This is purely based on my personal experience of course, and has no EFT theorycrafting involved. I am just telling you what I personally have experienced when actually doing missions in the ship for extended periods of time.
This was with all applicable skills at 5 btw(gunnery, tank, support, ship etc... like I said, I like my paladin)
This was my exact thinking with Tachs. I was going to try to tach it up on the navy apoc but decided pulses are much better due to tracking. I may start training towards Paladin if I have time, but I'll probably end up with the navy apoc because it's not as skill intensive and imo isn't all that much different.
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Dusica
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.13 15:00:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Dusica on 13/02/2011 15:03:10 Nightmare and Paladin are overall best Amarr mission runners. after them Apocalypse Navy Issue followed by Abaddon and Apocalypse.
That is with perfect skills tho. Apoc is more forgiving to low SP chars then Abaddon. Armageddon class ships are not very good for missions. They have one use where they excele and that is for killing none traditional Amarr enemies ( guristas for instance ). Since with Armageddon navy issue you can pack 5x berserkers t2 or 5x ogre t2 and do a bit quicker some missions vs angels and guristas. But they are not worth it. They have cap and fitting problems even with perfect skills unofrtunatelly.
As extra i would add Legion. For lvl4 in most missions it will under perform compared to the battleship variants because it just do not have optimal range and DPS to destroy NPC battleships as fast as amarr battleships can and most of lvl4 missions are crowded with NPC battleships. But there are few fast missions that require speed and let you fight vs cruiser and battlecruiser NPCs and that is where legion comes in handy as is very good since it has good lock time and is just doing fantastic damage vs those unlike battleship sized weapons. On top of that it can have good damage combined with insane tanking.
For perfect Amarr mission runner in the long run you will want to use : Paladin for missions with great salvage , Nightmare for missions with bad loot and salvage but with great bounty. Legion for the rest.
My personal preference is Pulse Paladin > Tachyon Nighmare > Pulse Legion. --------------- There can be ... only one ! |
Rina Maas
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.13 15:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts I like my paladin.
I spent a year or so missioning with tachs and switched out to pulses however. I found that, while on paper tachs are awesome, in reality the narrow window of really great dps made things simply annoying. I am finding that clearing missions is much easier and faster with pulses. The thing with tachs is that it is really easy for your targets to get too close for the tracking, and while you are still doing damage, the damage is pitiful.
This is purely based on my personal experience of course, and has no EFT theorycrafting involved. I am just telling you what I personally have experienced when actually doing missions in the ship for extended periods of time.
This was with all applicable skills at 5 btw(gunnery, tank, support, ship etc... like I said, I like my paladin)
Gal Navy Web and drones take care of anything close.
Tach paladin beats a pulse one hands down.
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Renix Xerar
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Posted - 2011.02.13 17:36:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dusica Edited by: Dusica on 13/02/2011 15:03:10 Nightmare and Paladin are overall best Amarr mission runners. after them Apocalypse Navy Issue followed by Abaddon and Apocalypse.
That is with perfect skills tho. Apoc is more forgiving to low SP chars then Abaddon. Armageddon class ships are not very good for missions. They have one use where they excele and that is for killing none traditional Amarr enemies ( guristas for instance ). Since with Armageddon navy issue you can pack 5x berserkers t2 or 5x ogre t2 and do a bit quicker some missions vs angels and guristas. But they are not worth it. They have cap and fitting problems even with perfect skills unofrtunatelly.
As extra i would add Legion. For lvl4 in most missions it will under perform compared to the battleship variants because it just do not have optimal range and DPS to destroy NPC battleships as fast as amarr battleships can and most of lvl4 missions are crowded with NPC battleships. But there are few fast missions that require speed and let you fight vs cruiser and battlecruiser NPCs and that is where legion comes in handy as is very good since it has good lock time and is just doing fantastic damage vs those unlike battleship sized weapons. On top of that it can have good damage combined with insane tanking.
For perfect Amarr mission runner in the long run you will want to use : Paladin for missions with great salvage , Nightmare for missions with bad loot and salvage but with great bounty. Legion for the rest.
My personal preference is Pulse Paladin > Tachyon Nighmare > Pulse Legion.
This was by far the most helpful post :D I might skill for paladin, as I have a long time before I have the money for one anyways. However, I'm not so sure about the Nightmare. Legion/Paladin combo sounds fine, brawler + sniper, but the Nightmare sounds like a bit of wasted money imo. A paladin could still do those missions, slightly less effectively.
What I may do is buy the navypoc, skill for paladin and then sell the apoc once I have the cash and the skills for a paladin. From there, I may or may not get a Legion, I'm all skilled for it I just have to buy one. I'll probably end up buying one in the end though XD
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Chatharsys
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Posted - 2011.02.13 18:06:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Chatharsys on 13/02/2011 18:06:40 Tach paladin is better than pulse as someone above said it. With top skills in gunnery it can one volley most battlecruisers even with t1 tachs, saving a lot of time. A tach paladin will always out damage DPS wise a pulse paladin in scorch range. Battleship rats will frequently orbit more than 30 km with some extreme cases to 50 km (blood raider blockade - the cardinals). At that range a paladin with tachs and 2 tracking computers loaded with range scripts can take out the rats quite fast. They have quite a punch and the first thing that crosses my mind is the volley (although many people will say that DPS is more important, but it is also important in what range can it be applied). One volley can take the shields of a bs and even more. About one or two for armor and another one for hull. So 3-4 volley and in some extreme cases 2 volley on bs past 30 km, runs missions quite fast. With those TC I mentioned,loaded now with tracking scripts can hit bc and cruisers in 10 km range which is not something to be ignored. It may struggle a bit for cruisers but it can even one volley bc orbiting in 10 km. But there are always drones for what you can't hit with lasers. My paladin with t2 tachs has without drones at beam spec 4 951 DPS which isn't bad, I believe.
A pulse paladin will struggle over 30 km even with scorch trying to bring down bs. It works but it simply doesn't have the DPS of tachs in that range. And there aren't a lot of missions where rats orbit in pulse-multifrequency range.The much vaunted scorch isn't that impressive at all next to navy multifrequency-tachs. It can be a substitute for some situations. When you can't afford a paladin/nightmare via skills or price and you're stuck with pulse because tachs are hard to fit on a standard bs.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.02.13 19:09:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts I like my paladin.
I spent a year or so missioning with tachs and switched out to pulses however. I found that, while on paper tachs are awesome, in reality the narrow window of really great dps made things simply annoying. I am finding that clearing missions is much easier and faster with pulses. The thing with tachs is that it is really easy for your targets to get too close for the tracking, and while you are still doing damage, the damage is pitiful.
This is purely based on my personal experience of course, and has no EFT theorycrafting involved. I am just telling you what I personally have experienced when actually doing missions in the ship for extended periods of time.
This was with all applicable skills at 5 btw(gunnery, tank, support, ship etc... like I said, I like my paladin)
I had the exact opposite experience, I started and liked the pulse paladin but switched to tachyons and never looked back. and if they get too close you can use an awesome web, but I have found they don't often get too close, and I almost never fit a web
as to the legion the only mission I use it for is wildcat strike, always 4 jumps away, and just have to kill a few frig/cruiser rats.
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Renix Xerar
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Posted - 2011.02.13 19:21:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts I like my paladin.
I spent a year or so missioning with tachs and switched out to pulses however. I found that, while on paper tachs are awesome, in reality the narrow window of really great dps made things simply annoying. I am finding that clearing missions is much easier and faster with pulses. The thing with tachs is that it is really easy for your targets to get too close for the tracking, and while you are still doing damage, the damage is pitiful.
This is purely based on my personal experience of course, and has no EFT theorycrafting involved. I am just telling you what I personally have experienced when actually doing missions in the ship for extended periods of time.
This was with all applicable skills at 5 btw(gunnery, tank, support, ship etc... like I said, I like my paladin)
I had the exact opposite experience, I started and liked the pulse paladin but switched to tachyons and never looked back. and if they get too close you can use an awesome web, but I have found they don't often get too close, and I almost never fit a web
as to the legion the only mission I use it for is wildcat strike, always 4 jumps away, and just have to kill a few frig/cruiser rats.
But what about the odd angel's extravaganza? I find the angel orbits to be wayy too close for even pulses =\
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.02.13 21:39:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Renix Xerar But what about the odd angel's extravaganza? I find the angel orbits to be wayy too close for even pulses =\
load tracking speed in the TCs and double tap to manually reduce transversial, them angels go pop! although with a 90% web can pretty much sit still. luckily most of them spawn at a reasonable range that you can kill a bunch of them before they get to orbit. these days I just take the vargur out for AE.
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catinboots
Minmatar Vintage collective
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Posted - 2011.02.14 08:22:00 -
[43]
I have to agree on the paladin as choice for the best amarian mission running ship , i recently got one for my second account and i am very very impresssed,even against serpentis it does very well and against angels and guristas, owell it takes a bit longer to complete the mission ,
I use a t2 megapulse, with afterburner and faction hardners and a imperial LAR , all things you can get relative cheap in the lp store
I hate the nightmare it is ugly as hell and it makes my eyes sore just looking at one
_____________
There be dragons
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Dusica
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.14 12:54:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Dusica on 14/02/2011 13:02:23
Originally by: Renix Xerar
Originally by: Dusica Edited by: Dusica on 13/02/2011 15:03:10 Nightmare and Paladin are overall best Amarr mission runners. after them Apocalypse Navy Issue followed by Abaddon and Apocalypse.
That is with perfect skills tho. Apoc is more forgiving to low SP chars then Abaddon. Armageddon class ships are not very good for missions. They have one use where they excele and that is for killing none traditional Amarr enemies ( guristas for instance ). Since with Armageddon navy issue you can pack 5x berserkers t2 or 5x ogre t2 and do a bit quicker some missions vs angels and guristas. But they are not worth it. They have cap and fitting problems even with perfect skills unofrtunatelly.
As extra i would add Legion. For lvl4 in most missions it will under perform compared to the battleship variants because it just do not have optimal range and DPS to destroy NPC battleships as fast as amarr battleships can and most of lvl4 missions are crowded with NPC battleships. But there are few fast missions that require speed and let you fight vs cruiser and battlecruiser NPCs and that is where legion comes in handy as is very good since it has good lock time and is just doing fantastic damage vs those unlike battleship sized weapons. On top of that it can have good damage combined with insane tanking.
For perfect Amarr mission runner in the long run you will want to use : Paladin for missions with great salvage , Nightmare for missions with bad loot and salvage but with great bounty. Legion for the rest.
My personal preference is Pulse Paladin > Tachyon Nighmare > Pulse Legion.
This was by far the most helpful post :D I might skill for paladin, as I have a long time before I have the money for one anyways. However, I'm not so sure about the Nightmare. Legion/Paladin combo sounds fine, brawler + sniper, but the Nightmare sounds like a bit of wasted money imo. A paladin could still do those missions, slightly less effectively.
What I may do is buy the navypoc, skill for paladin and then sell the apoc once I have the cash and the skills for a paladin. From there, I may or may not get a Legion, I'm all skilled for it I just have to buy one. I'll probably end up buying one in the end though XD
Thanks.
I would add about Nightmare. Nightmare is considerably easier to train for then Paladin and coupled with Noctis it will bring you very good ISK/hour. In some missions it is better then Paladin. And nothing is wasted ISK unless you lose ship. Consider it renting of the ship. You can play next month of two with Nightmare then sell it and buy Paladin. Basically you do not loose any ISK because market on those ships is fairly stable and prices should be around the same. Obviously you do need to decide do you need Nightmare based on shield skills and caldary skills. If you do not want to train those then Paladin is obvious choice.
--------------- There can be ... only one ! |
Dusica
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.14 13:02:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Dusica on 14/02/2011 13:05:29
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
Yes Tachyon Paladin can seam better then Pulse Paladin , but then you try Tachyon Nightmare and Tachyon Paladin does not seam so great anymore.
Pulses on Paladin require few things to work perfectly and to be better then Tachyons : 1. Afterburner 2. Tracking computers ( webs are not optimal ). 3. Scorch 4. Absolute knowlage of every missions so you know where you need to burn even before spawns spawn.
For instance i have 58km optimal with scorch and i can effectively hit up to 68km with my Paladin. On top of that it goes around 350m/s so it can get into range very fast. And that is not just range of enemy ships but to range of wrecks as well so you will have more loot and more wrecks salvaged. Real and effective DPS is better as well since there is significantly less overkill. You can litteratly destroy 12 enemy frigates in 3 volleys and then just use your medium drones to kill stuff instead of light drones. Ability to hit several times in row excellent hits at very close ranges is something Tachyons cant do , especially not on Paladin that does not have tracking bonus of Nightmare and has fitting problems ( hard to fit afterburner and tachyons ). All in all best tachyons are on the Nightmare , but both ships are just end of the line for lvl4 missioning and nobody can be called mistake with Pulses or with Tachyons. --------------- There can be ... only one ! |
Al Anders
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Posted - 2011.02.14 13:37:00 -
[46]
I can just describe my progress in amarr missons in amarr ships. 1. Armageddon (sentry). Was pretty effective for a 4-5kk sp newb without t2 lasers but with sentries. 2. Abaddon (yes. i've skipped apoc cause was a bit busy in RL and got amarr BS lvl 5 out of eve). Pretty good workhorse. Pulse abby can be fitted in NM style (4 HS) so no loose in damage, but have tracking issues if compared to NM. 3. Paladin - Good workhorse to chew on shansha's and bloods, may be drones(weak to em) and mercs(come close to my lovely web and weak to thermal AN MF.. You know :) ) and no more. Cause in spare time i'm working for angels and serps - and i have nothing to deal with them. For guristas i keep lazy passive gila with a helload of sentries to kick them out. currently thinking about NM, but according to ship price and average fit price - i'd prefer abaddon. Cheaper, and in generan no worse than NM. For blintzing can be considered lgion, absolution and tengu. Possible loki. As answer for the op question i'll choose Navy Geddon. Full set of damage (if we talink about amarr ship) makes it extremely viable option for amarr misson. For all amarr mission not only bloods, sansha's.
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Krisis Akratos
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Posted - 2011.02.14 17:46:00 -
[47]
I so wish CCP would create a T2 version of the Abbadon... I love that ship, it's just the most awesome and sexy beast ever!
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.02.14 21:56:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Dusica Yes Tachyon Paladin can seam better then Pulse Paladin , but then you try Tachyon Nightmare and Tachyon Paladin does not seam so great anymore.
Pulses on Paladin require few things to work perfectly and to be better then Tachyons : 1. Afterburner 2. Tracking computers ( webs are not optimal ). 3. Scorch 4. Absolute knowlage of every missions so you know where you need to burn even before spawns spawn.
For instance i have 58km optimal with scorch and i can effectively hit up to 68km with my Paladin. On top of that it goes around 350m/s so it can get into range very fast. And that is not just range of enemy ships but to range of wrecks as well so you will have more loot and more wrecks salvaged. Real and effective DPS is better as well since there is significantly less overkill. You can litteratly destroy 12 enemy frigates in 3 volleys and then just use your medium drones to kill stuff instead of light drones. Ability to hit several times in row excellent hits at very close ranges is something Tachyons cant do , especially not on Paladin that does not have tracking bonus of Nightmare and has fitting problems ( hard to fit afterburner and tachyons ). All in all best tachyons are on the Nightmare , but both ships are just end of the line for lvl4 missioning and nobody can be called mistake with Pulses or with Tachyons.
I have a paladin and nightmare, don't really have a preference between them, they are both awesome but do things slightly differently.
as for pulse vs tachs, I consider the killground to be 30-50km, and that is where tachys rule.
1. /effort 2. imo both should have tcs 3. t2 guns ftw, but megapulse + scorch burns out fast, IN multi lasts a long time in tachs 4. again /effort
for the pulse paladin to really do better it has to be in multi/conflag range. there are a few missions where this does work pretty damn well,
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Renix Xerar
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Posted - 2011.02.20 16:06:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Dusica Yes Tachyon Paladin can seam better then Pulse Paladin , but then you try Tachyon Nightmare and Tachyon Paladin does not seam so great anymore.
Pulses on Paladin require few things to work perfectly and to be better then Tachyons : 1. Afterburner 2. Tracking computers ( webs are not optimal ). 3. Scorch 4. Absolute knowlage of every missions so you know where you need to burn even before spawns spawn.
For instance i have 58km optimal with scorch and i can effectively hit up to 68km with my Paladin. On top of that it goes around 350m/s so it can get into range very fast. And that is not just range of enemy ships but to range of wrecks as well so you will have more loot and more wrecks salvaged. Real and effective DPS is better as well since there is significantly less overkill. You can litteratly destroy 12 enemy frigates in 3 volleys and then just use your medium drones to kill stuff instead of light drones. Ability to hit several times in row excellent hits at very close ranges is something Tachyons cant do , especially not on Paladin that does not have tracking bonus of Nightmare and has fitting problems ( hard to fit afterburner and tachyons ). All in all best tachyons are on the Nightmare , but both ships are just end of the line for lvl4 missioning and nobody can be called mistake with Pulses or with Tachyons.
I have a paladin and nightmare, don't really have a preference between them, they are both awesome but do things slightly differently.
as for pulse vs tachs, I consider the killground to be 30-50km, and that is where tachys rule.
1. /effort 2. imo both should have tcs 3. t2 guns ftw, but megapulse + scorch burns out fast, IN multi lasts a long time in tachs 4. again /effort
for the pulse paladin to really do better it has to be in multi/conflag range. there are a few missions where this does work pretty damn well,
I always seem to have the killzone of 20-30km as opposed to 30+.. Mainly because most cruiser orbits are somewhere in there and there's only a handful of bs' that orbit long-range...
Picking them off as they approach from 30-50km seems like the obvious choice, but there's only so much you can kill before they get too close. How do tachys fair against cruisers btw? I always figured the tracking would be too poor to hit cruisers (especially when they get in moderately close) and that the drones would take too long to kill them.
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Crabs Collector
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Posted - 2011.02.20 19:56:00 -
[50]
I tried out both t2 pulse and faction tachyons on my Paladin, and in average found the tachyons doing missions much better. Because if you fit pulses, you'll have to chase some ships for getting close wich is a waste of time and scatters wrecks. Also the need to get closer is also harder on your tank. My standard fit is with a faction TC and faction webber, wich is plenty for popping everything except frigates.
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Star P'ergish
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Posted - 2011.02.21 00:06:00 -
[51]
Well as already mentioned , there is nothing like Paladin against Sansha , Blood , Drones , EOM ans Mercs.
It is cheap to fit (just faction + T2 hardeners) always T2 tachyons (with 2 faction TCs) and you can loot and salvage on the run.
I had a problem with Angels (Extravaganza and Worlds Collide) and Guristas (The Assault) so I've got myself Vargur.
If you seriously thinking about missioning train marauders they were created for this.
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thorax spartan
C.R.M Productions BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.02.21 08:07:00 -
[52]
i have used a t2 fited apoc for a very long time running missions in amarr space and found while a paladin and nightmare (which i have used as well) are fun the zomghoweasy is this now made the wow factor go real fast.
the apoc fit i still use now wen iam in empire is. 8 x mega pulse II 4 x cap recharger II 1 x lar II 1 x eanm II 1 x therm hardner II 1 x em hardner II 3 x heat sink II
rigs 3 x ccc drones 5 x hobgolbin II 5 x hammerhead II
rof 4.3sec dmg 574/2486 (without drones) cap stable at 67% (everything running) op range 61875meters 10000 meter falloff
cheap as u like and wont envoke emorage if it pops
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Crabs Collector
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Posted - 2011.02.21 10:58:00 -
[53]
If you have problems with those close ships on AE, fit a TS webber on your paladin. Their reach is 15km and slows ships down to only 10% of their speed. Pretty much everything outside that 15km you can pop with your tachyons, if you fitted a tracking computer next to that webber.
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Sinjin Mokk
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.02.21 14:17:00 -
[54]
Real answer: It depends.
Use what works best for you based on your skills and style of play. Every ship has its good points and its drawbacks. The point of ship fitting is there is no perfect ship. Fly something that is fun, that gets the job done and that you can afford to lose if things go all pear-shaped.
Serving the Dark Amarr |
Renix Xerar
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Posted - 2011.02.21 18:54:00 -
[55]
I do have one last dilemma.
Is the quality bonus in low sec so great as opposed to high sec that it would be worth fitting an 'unscannable' Legion to run Q20 L4s in 0.1-0.2 systems? The Paladin seems like an obvious choice for high sec, but I'm wondering if the extra quality bonuses would make the slower mission running with a legion more profitable... And whether the risk is worth it (though I think I could manage not dying)
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Renix Xerar
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Posted - 2011.02.23 22:02:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Renix Xerar I do have one last dilemma.
Is the quality bonus in low sec so great as opposed to high sec that it would be worth fitting an 'unscannable' Legion to run Q20 L4s in 0.1-0.2 systems? The Paladin seems like an obvious choice for high sec, but I'm wondering if the extra quality bonuses would make the slower mission running with a legion more profitable... And whether the risk is worth it (though I think I could manage not dying)
Assuming 0 time for skill training and a choice between HAMs and Lasers for damage (with Legion) - I'm not picky, I've trained it all.
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